Does wort return method matter much?

[TheMerkle]

I'm almost done (finally) with my recirculating ebiab system and just wondering what everyone thinks about the wort return method? I've seen many guys who insist that just dropping the outlet hose from the pump into the kettle (so that it's submerged) is no different from a sprayer or a cofi arm or any other sparge arm style fitting when performing this method.

Any differing opinions?

 

[Yeastieboy]

I have been spraying through a stainless nozzle in the lid for over a year now. It really does a nice job evenly distributing the wort over the grain bed however, I'm not sure how important that is. We're not sparging here. If anything, it probably helps avoid hot and cool spots in the grains. Again, big deal? ...no idea. Another benefit is that the nozzle aerates the heck out of the wort during cooling.

Before my next brew, I was actually just considering replacing the nozzle with some sort of return pipe to direct wort along the kettle wall. The main reason I am planning that is for whirpooling after boil. But it raised the same question for me; will this negatively affect the mash in any way when returning wort throughout the mash cycle?

 

[TexasWine]

If you are someone who tries to minimize oxygen uptake at every step, then yes the return method does matter. I'm still tinkering with my process, but I'm headed down the path of low oxygen brewing. My beers have gotten better as a result, and they weren't shabby to begin with, snagging some hardware along the way and even a best of show.

 

[TheMerkle]

It's hard to end up in the camp of low oxygen brewing when you're in my homebrew club... but I could be easily coerced.

 

[Bobby_M]

I use locline through the lid of the pot. It doesn't get in the way of the bag folding over the pot. I can adjust the internal height to any grain bill to just hit the top of the mash wort. In my opinion it's the perfect low cost solution. https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/mashrecirculation.htm weldless with cam A

 

[Yeastieboy]

If you are someone who tries to minimize oxygen uptake at every step, then yes the return method does matter. I'm still tinkering with my process, but I'm headed down the path of low oxygen brewing. My beers have gotten better as a result, and they weren't shabby to begin with, snagging some hardware along the way and even a best of show.

Any details or just bragging? (Wink)

 

[Yeastieboy]

I use locline through the lid of the pot. It doesn't get in the way of the bag folding over the pot. I can adjust the internal height to any grain bill to just hit the top of the mash wort. In my opinion it's the perfect low cost solution. https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/mashrecirculation.htm weldless with cam A

Thanks for sharing some insight into your solution. I really like the locline idea and as you said, it's cost effective. I like that I can have it returning wort to the surface of any grain bed and after removing my basket, redirect it for whirlpool. I just ordered one for a test drive.

 

[55x11]

I'm almost done (finally) with my recirculating ebiab system and just wondering what everyone thinks about the wort return method? I've seen many guys who insist that just dropping the outlet hose from the pump into the kettle (so that it's submerged) is no different from a sprayer or a cofi arm or any other sparge arm style fitting when performing this method.

Any differing opinions?

So the issue here is Hot Side Aeration. (HSA)
I like to reduce oxygen in my beer, post fermentation, as much as I can. We are talking fractions of mL of air being exposed to my 5G keg of beer.

But after some (often inadvertent) experimenting of my own, and also reading much about it from people who know a lot more than me and who did a lot of experiments on the subject - people I respect, I am not convinced HSA is all that real.

My take on this currently: either it's very real but its effect on flavor is orders of magnitude weaker than most other effects many of us don't even care about on homebrewer scale, OR, it's a 20-year old wives tale that won't die because of fanatical diehard fans that insist that this is the one and only way to make those "malty flavors" stand out or whatever. Or some linear combination of the two.

But when Denny Conn (who is hopefully lurking here somewhere), Prof. Charlie Bamforth and Brulosopher team, all very practically oriented yet open-minded people, all say it doesn't matter - some reversing themselves (or at least saying it doesn't matter enough for anyone to notice any difference), who am I - who are we to argue otherwise?

Until I hear some compelling scientific proof showing they are all fools and there is a huge effect that can be easily shown in repeated blind triangle tests.

I change my procedures all the time and would be happy to invest more time in limiting hot side aeration effects as soon as someone shows me clear evidence of its benefits, but for now I remain very skeptical.

 

[Yeastieboy]

HSA is a myth at the Homebrew level. I've read more than enough to be convinced. It's been proven time and time again. There may certainly be other reasons to avoid aerating while hot. Just waiting for @TexasWine to tell us what they are. He's pretty saavy about eBIAB.

 

[TexasWine]

HSA is a myth at the Homebrew level. I've read more than enough to be convinced. It's been proven time and time again. There may certainly be other reasons to avoid aerating while hot. Just waiting for @TexasWine to tell us what they are. He's pretty saavy about eBIAB.

You, my friend, are far too complimentary of my knowledge and skills. I simply read, read some more, and then read some more, and try things out for myself. Sometimes I fail, sometimes I stick my foot in my mouth. But it's all in the quest for the best beer with the least effort.

With that, I've been following and participating in the HBT conversation on what had been dubbed LODO brewing. You can find it here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532

I started really paying attention when the technique caught the eye of AJ Delange.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7541718

The whole point of the above mentioned discussion revolves around excluding oxygen from the entire brewing process, hot and cold side This is if course to avoid to oxidation. I encourage you to read through the discussion, try it out, and come to your own conclusions. I don't think I've heard anyone that actually tried it, really followed all the necessary steps to achieve a low dissolved oxygen brew day, and didn't think it was a step in the right direction.

At this point I'm a few brews in on this, still refining, tweaking and learning. I haven't entered any of these beers into competitions yet because I'm still optimizing. But I do have at least two reference brews that I've made in the past and now with the LODO approach.

One was an IIPA that always came out darker than I wanted. When I did it LODO, the color was spot on. The other was an Altbier. It's still conditioning, but initial tastes indicate that it now has the maltiness the judges said it was lacking.

One last point. I don't think that the folks that are often quoted as having debunked HSA really had a valid approach. The reason being is that to prove HSA isn't a real thing, you have to compare a brew with little to no oxygen against one saturated with oxygen. The one experiment I read about compared a standard brew, which would have involved water saturated with oxygen, to another that had been stirred vigorously but would really still have exactly the same amount of oxygen dissolved as the standard brew. The reason there was no difference in the two brews is because, well, there was no difference. The oxygen level, and therefore the oxidation and HSA were the same for both.

I've droned on too long now. If you really, truly try to eliminate HSA, and even cold side exposure to oxygen, I think you'll become a believer in the boogie man. I know I am.

Last thing, promise. Today I brewed 15 barrels of my pro-am winning Belgian Tripel with No Label Brewing out in Katy, Texas. It was quite an experience to brew on their system and to put in a lot of work, but make a ton of beer all at once. Look for it to be on tap in a couple of weeks or so!

 

[TheMerkle]

I guess you stay to the BIAB forums mostly, TexasWine? I've never seen you around before but since I've been prowling the biab pages I've gotten to where I can't get enough of your posts. It's a beautiful thing when a fellow forum goer is super knowledgeable, wordy, and still approachable. Good on you!

 

[55x11]

You, my friend, are far too complimentary of my knowledge and skills. I simply read, read some more, and then read some more, and try things out for myself. Sometimes I fail, sometimes I stick my foot in my mouth. But it's all in the quest for the best beer with the least effort.

With that, I've been following and participating in the HBT conversation on what had been dubbed LODO brewing. You can find it here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532

I started really paying attention when the technique caught the eye of AJ Delange.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7541718

The whole point of the above mentioned discussion revolves around excluding oxygen from the entire brewing process, hot and cold side This is if course to avoid to oxidation. I encourage you to read through the discussion, try it out, and come to your own conclusions. I don't think I've heard anyone that actually tried it, really followed all the necessary steps to achieve a low dissolved oxygen brew day, and didn't think it was a step in the right direction.

At this point I'm a few brews in on this, still refining, tweaking and learning. I haven't entered any of these beers into competitions yet because I'm still optimizing. But I do have at least two reference brews that I've made in the past and now with the LODO approach.

One was an IIPA that always came out darker than I wanted. When I did it LODO, the color was spot on. The other was an Altbier. It's still conditioning, but initial tastes indicate that it now has the maltiness the judges said it was lacking.

One last point. I don't think that the folks that are often quoted as having debunked HSA really had a valid approach. The reason being is that to prove HSA isn't a real thing, you have to compare a brew with little to no oxygen against one saturated with oxygen. The one experiment I read about compared a standard brew, which would have involved water saturated with oxygen, to another that had been stirred vigorously but would really still have exactly the same amount of oxygen dissolved as the standard brew. The reason there was no difference in the two brews is because, well, there was no difference. The oxygen level, and therefore the oxidation and HSA were the same for both.

I've droned on too long now. If you really, truly try to eliminate HSA, and even cold side exposure to oxygen, I think you'll become a believer in the boogie man. I know I am.

Last thing, promise. Today I brewed 15 barrels of my pro-am winning Belgian Tripel with No Label Brewing out in Katy, Texas. It was quite an experience to brew on their system and to put in a lot of work, but make a ton of beer all at once. Look for it to be on tap in a couple of weeks or so!

So out of curiosity what's your (or anyone else's) best evidence for HSA effect?

Make your best case.
What is your best evidence the effect is substantial, at homebrewer level?

And what would we have to do to reduce HSA to reasonable levels during mashing, cooling, transferring, recirculating etc.?

 

[The_Bishop]

Been there, done that and you'll get no real answers.

 

[TexasWine]

So out of curiosity what's your (or anyone else's) best evidence for HSA effect?

Make your best case.
What is your best evidence the effect is substantial, at homebrewer level?

And what would we have to do to reduce HSA to reasonable levels during mashing, cooling, transferring, recirculating etc.?

Sorry to the OP if we've gone off topic a tad. But I guess it is kind of on topic if it helps someone decide how to recirculate their wort.

One of the big things that convinced me was the plethora of pictures I started seeing of side-by-side comparisons of wort and beer produced from high DO brewing and low DO brewing. Below is an picture that serves as an example of wort produced using the two methods, and the link where you can read about it. The lighter wort was produced following a low DO procedure. Pictures comparing beers are similar. The high DO beers will have this odd orange hue compared to the same beer made using low DO.

{Well shucks. HBT isn't letting me upload pictures. I'll try again later. At any rate, here is the link for the wort comparison.}

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=507

And here is the link where a guy compared the color of wort doing a mini mash. Look at the third post down. Again, the lighter of the three is the low DO produced wort.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=507

These are the two instances I knew where they were off the top of my head. But time after time, I've seen people post pictures of before and after low DO brews. The color differences never ceases to amaze me. And, as mentioned, my typically too dark IIPA was suddenly lighter when I brewed it low DO.

The second thing that convinced me was the taste of my own beer, as mentioned above. The Altbier, which has fared very well in competition, had a consistent comment that it needed more malt presence. I recently brewed it for an upcoming party, and suddenly the malt presence I was missing is there. I was a little surprised. And I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that it tastes different.

Third, from what I've been able to read, the professional brewing literature supports this approach. I haven't had a chance to read these books myself, so I'm taking someone else's word for it. But the excerpts I've seen quoted all indicate oxidation, and here specifically HSA, is a real thing.

My last little bit of convincing came simply from my own logic. Have you ever made a cup of hot tea and let it sit out several hours, or over night? Notice how much darker it got? That's oxidation. Ever cut an apple and have it turn brown? Oxidation. It happens all around us and it fundamentally changes the way things look, taste and smell.

That was my journey of thinking through this. Know that I'm not going to be someone who says your beer is garbage if you don't do it low DO. But to me the evidence points to the fact that oxidation, both hot side and cold side, exists and it makes a difference in our beers. I don't see any way to conclude anything to the contrary.

As far as how to reduce oxygen during the brewing process, I'd recommend reading the PDF the German Brewing folks put out there. It gives good guidance. I don't follow it to a T because my set up is different (I'm a no sparge brewer), and I don't have the time mid-week to do things like transfer to spunding with 6 gravity points left.

Another novel. Sorry. If you've made it to the bottom of this, thanks for your patience. Hope it helps someone.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

TexasWine,

I've been looking forward to an unbiased review of the LODO process - thanks for that. I pretty much gave up on the germanbrewing thread. I really disliked the folks saying that if you didn't follow their outline exactly, then you were brewing beer that was garbage and should be dumped. So, thanks!

Does this only work well on malty beers? Or does it work equally well for IPAs. I'm mainly focused on IPAs and am extremely careful about O2 exposure after pitching yeast. But I'm always open to improving my beers (and I listen better to folks that are not zealots).

Finally, sorry OP for further derailment of your thread.

Pliny

 

[TheMerkle]

Not a derailment at all. This is totally relevant to my decision in how to place my return.

 

[TexasWine]

TexasWine,

I've been looking forward to an unbiased review of the LODO process - thanks for that. I pretty much gave up on the germanbrewing thread. I really disliked the folks saying that if you didn't follow their outline exactly, then you were brewing beer that was garbage and should be dumped. So, thanks!

Does this only work well on malty beers? Or does it work equally well for IPAs. I'm mainly focused on IPAs and am extremely careful about O2 exposure after pitching yeast. But I'm always open to improving my beers (and I listen better to folks that are not zealots).

Finally, sorry OP for further derailment of your thread.

Pliny

Yeah, that other thread wasn't pleasant for quite some time. I hung in there but was pretty quiet.

My experience so far has been that the flavor of malty beer is definitely amplified. But I like what it does with my IIPA too in terms of color and hop aroma (lighter and more, respectively). I also expect my IPAs to keep their hop profiles for a longer duration because of this, but I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

Keep in mind that my experience is a very small sample pool and that I'm still dialing things in. For example, just this past week I realized that orienting my plate chiller in the horizontal resulted in air being trapped in it. And a few weeks ago I realized I was overdosing with SMB because the instructions in the paper weren't clear.

My point being, even though I haven't nailed the process completely, I've seen improvement, steps in the right direction.

 

[newnick]

Wish I hadn't have read all this stuff. I've been thinking I had my recirculating system all worked out since I rarely have any issues. I've read about hot side oxidation before but never in this amount of detail (by following most of the links and reading the PDF). I guess the tweaking will never end.

 

[TexasWine]

I guess the tweaking will never end.

That's kind of how I've been feeling lately too. On one hand it's kind of fun to continuously look for improvements, but at the same time I am looking forward to the day where I have my process so nailed down that I can put more focus on things like recipe development and ingredient experimentation.

 

[55x11]

That's kind of how I've been feeling lately too. On one hand it's kind of fun to continuously look for improvements, but at the same time I am looking forward to the day where I have my process so nailed down that I can put more focus on things like recipe development and ingredient experimentation.

So out of curiosity - what is your "low DO" process? So many people mean so many different things by this.

For example, does your plate chiller have copper parts? Do you boil for at least 5 min and then rapidly chill your strike water using some non-copper non-iron chiller?
Do you mash under nitrogen atmosphere, without mixing the grist during the mashing process? Do you eliminate any headspace in mashtun? How much of sodium metabisulfites do you add? Do you measure DO with a meter at various stages?
Do you simmer at 98C instead of getting vigorous boil, contrary to all recommendations of experts like Charlie Bamforth?

And what about packaging beer post-fermentation - I feel this is where avoiding oxygen is far more important.

 

[jcglezen]

I would have to agree with Bobby's reply above. After trying a couple of different options, the loc-line though the lid has worked well for me. Adjustable, and at my flow rates, provides a nice, quiet, recirc. Of course TexasWine now has me reading LODO strings.....to be continued

 

[ALExanderH]

I'm in the early days of my recirculated brew in a basket full volume mash system. So far using just a silicone tube that goes just below the surface but I'm adding this sprinkler nozzle

Since I'm doing full volume I'm not letting the grain bed settle and therefore equal temperature through the whole grain and outside of the basket are the most important for me, the sprinkler nozzle will create hopefully more movement of grain inside the basket.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I would have to agree with Bobby's reply above. After trying a couple of different options, the loc-line though the lid has worked well for me. Adjustable, and at my flow rates, provides a nice, quiet, recirc. Of course TexasWine now has me reading LODO strings.....to be continued

Do you use anything on the end of the loc-line or does it just come out as a stream? Do you run pump full-bore during mash recirculation? Thanks!

 

[jcglezen]

Do you use anything on the end of the loc-line or does it just come out as a stream? Do you run pump full-bore during mash recirculation? Thanks!

I ended up drilling holes along the length of the locline. If you run the pump full bore during recirculation (at least with my pump), it will exceed the rate that the wort can flow through the grain bed and you'll overflow the kettle (which I did the my first time out). You'll need to play around a bit to find the right flow rate for your system. For me, its a little less than half way closed on the valve after the pump. Results in a nice gentle stream out the holes in the locline (almost like a fly sparge set up). I should mention that I also have a side return port for whirpooling after the bag is removed. With the camlocks it's easy to move the return from the lid to the side port when you're ready to whirlpool. Hope this helps. -Cheers

 

[Yeastieboy]

Is lighter wort superior to darker wort?

 

[TexasWine]

So out of curiosity - what is your "low DO" process? So many people mean so many different things by this.

For example, does your plate chiller have copper parts? Do you boil for at least 5 min and then rapidly chill your strike water using some non-copper non-iron chiller?
Do you mash under nitrogen atmosphere, without mixing the grist during the mashing process? Do you eliminate any headspace in mashtun? How much of sodium metabisulfites do you add? Do you measure DO with a meter at various stages?
Do you simmer at 98C instead of getting vigorous boil, contrary to all recommendations of experts like Charlie Bamforth?

And what about packaging beer post-fermentation - I feel this is where avoiding oxygen is far more important.

Never written all this out before, but I'll give it a try. And know that this stuff isn't set in stone. I'm still learning things with each brew day and making changes. Here's what it is as it stands today.

Here are the specifics of my system:
eBIAB with recirculating mash
62 quart Bayou Classic
MK II pump
Brau Supply 120 v controller (PID)
2x1500 watt elements, one mounted to the kettle, second is a Hot Rod from @Bobby_M
Mash cap made from very large stainless steel cake pan and a bulkhead + tee in the middle
Loc line wort return under mash cap
Plate Chiller, stainless steel brazed with copper

DO Meter:
Don’t have one and I acknowledge the fact that I’m completely flying blind until I get one. At this point I’m simply taking the steps that I know will reduce DO. A meter will be handy when I get to the point where I’ve done everything that I feel is feasible, and if I think my beer still isn’t where it should be then I’ll buy one to trouble shoot the leaks in my process.

Oxygen Scavenging:
Baker’s yeast and dextrose at a dosage rate of 1.6 g/gal and 0.8 g/gal, respectively. Turn on the pump to circulate water and remove air pockets from the system. Allow it to sit for between 45 minutes and 2 hours, depending on what I have going on at the time. Dose with SMB at the end of that time, before ramping up the temp. I’m still trying to figure out how much SMB to use. Was using 100 mg/L because of some misinformation in the PDF that was published, but that was producing some very sulfury beers. Dialed it back down to 25 mg/L the last brew day. No sulfur on the nose, but that might be too low because preliminary results look like the beer came out darker than last time. Will probably go up to 30 mg/L next go round.

WORT PRODUCTION
Milling:
I condition the grain with 1-2% water by weight. I have been adding a pinch of SMB to the conditioning water, but I don’t know that this is necessary. Milling is done as close to dough in as is feasible.

Mash:
I keep hoses as short as possible and use clamps on all my QD to hose barb connections to make sure no oxygen is leaking in. Instead of underletting, I have been slowly lowering the bag full of grain into the mash water. This could be a source of O2 pick up for me, but having read another DO meter wielding BIABer’s account of the issue, it shouldn’t be. I stir minimally with a 24” whisk, trying not to bring any grains to the surface. After that, I put the mash cap in place, let the mash sit a few minutes, then and fire up the pump.

Boiling:
I simmer. I keep boil off rates at 10% or less of initial volume. This is easy to do with an electric system and a controller. For a typical 6 gallon batch I will set the PID to 30% with the other element at 100%, directly plugged into the outlet.

Chiller:
Per the German Brewing folks, the copper in my chiller isn’t ideal. Supposedly there are some super-duper oxidizers found in the oxide layer on copper and aluminum. At this point I’m not convinced that the little amount of copper used to braze those stainless steel plates together is doing much. Even though I can see the little copper lines on the exterior, I couldn’t tell you if there’s any exposed copper on the inside of this thing. I do have a 50’ SS immersion chiller I could be using, but given the ratio of my kettle, it wouldn’t be fully submerged and there’s no doubt it would take longer to chill, exposing the wort to more oxygen in the meantime.

FERMENTATION/PACKAGING
Still working on this one. Currently I use a SS Brewtech Brew Bucket and I do a quasi-gravity feed to the keg. I say quasi because I elevate it, connect the hose to the outlet valve, connect that to the liquid out, remove the air lock and replace it with a CO2 supply hose to backfill the vapor space as it empties. This works OK, but I have a problem keeping the rubber stopper in place for the CO2. I’ve recently bought several more kegs to use as fermentation vessels. In the future the plan will be to ferment under pressure in them and use CO2 to push the finished beer to the serving keg.

I’ve been force carbing (though I did naturally carbonate one lager using the final few gravity points) even though it appears that there’s enough oxygen in the CO2 most of us use to cause some amount of oxidation. I need to figure this part out. Right now the front runner it to let fermentation ride out and then transfer to a serving keg where I can add priming sugar. Because I like to enter my beers into competitions, this would also give me a chance to bottle a few off the primed keg and let them bottle condition.

I guess I also need to mention my keg purging process. Follow this link so I don’t have to type it all out again  https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7691988&postcount=607

I’ll edit this post if I think of anything else to add that I do.

 

[techbrau]

I don't know if "misinformation" is an accurate word, as we did specify to use 100 mg/l for mash water and 10-25 mg/l for sparge water. The document was originally written assuming a standard process that employs a sparge. We never said no-sparge mashers should use 100 mg/l, and instead assumed that they would know to interpolate and use 50-60 mg/l. I realize that this was a mistake on our part and the document needs to be more clearly written.

LODO brewing is quite complicated and demands approximately an undergraduate level understanding of chemistry and physics to understand how and why it works. It is important to have some understanding of these hows and whys to properly apply LODO to any arbitrary, non-standard system. It's not possible for the document to be a one-size-fits-all, step-by-step guide that is guaranteed to work optimally for every possible brewing system. Ultimately the document is an attempt to convey a set of concepts that the reader needs to carefully consider when adapting to their own system.

We did recently release a revised version which hopefully clears up some of the most confusing points. The document, and the current LODO method as well, are imperfect works in progress. I am unaware of anybody anywhere else who has ever come up with a different method of small scale low oxygen brewing that actually works, or even demonstrated that oxygen truly is an issue at this scale. LODO needs to be seen not as gospel, but as the current state-of-the-art understanding and methodology which is still evolving.

The degree of oxidation-related damage done to the wort is not straightforward to measure, even with laboratory equipment because the reduction potential of the wort does not tell the full story. Believe it or not, the color of the wort is probably the simplest, most objective, and most reliable way we currently have of determining whether or not the wort is oxygen damaged. The chemical changes which darken the wort also bring a big change in the flavor, so yes, there is a difference between lighter and darker wort made with the same grist. Which is better is up to you. If you want to read my thoughts on the chemistry in a bit more detail, read my post here:

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=507&start=10

25-30 mg/l is too low a dose to offer effective protection, even with a no sparge system. I would not go below 40 mg/l, and some preliminary comparisons we've done have suggested that the flavor is better at 60 mg/l than 40 mg/l.

Thanks for providing the detailed write up of your system - since you are seeing the color and flavor difference it sounds like it's working as it should, so your system description is valuable information for other BIAB brewers. I don't intent to argue at all in my post, only to clarify and maintain accuracy.

 

[Yeastieboy]

The principles explored in the document are certainly intriguing, especially their stark contrast to the "HSA is a myth" school of thought. I'm game for trying a 5-minute pre-boil and cooling, SMB treatment, and no-spray recirculation followed by pitching yeast sooner. Since switching to eBIAB, I've always returned wort through a spray nozzle in the lid and been a little concerned about that. I've also always chilled and refrigerated overnight before pitching.

Tweaking these things will be my first steps toward reducing DO. Should I encounter some sign of improvement, I may consider some of the other suggestions set forth in the document. Otherwise, I'm not at a point in my brewing hobby that I'd go to some of these extremes. Cheers.

 

[TexasWine]

I don't know if "misinformation" is an accurate word, as we did specify to use 100 mg/l for mash water and 10-25 mg/l for sparge water. The document was originally written assuming a standard process that employs a sparge. We never said no-sparge mashers should use 100 mg/l, and instead assumed that they would know to interpolate and use 50-60 mg/l. I realize that this was a mistake on our part and the document needs to be more clearly written.

Maybe "misinformation" was strong. I got tripped up reading the following sections excerpted below. Per your suggestion, I'll bump up the SMB to at least 40 mg/l.

2.1 Water
For now, keep your water as simple as possible. The use of SMB will introduce both sodium and sulfate to your water, so we recommend starting with reverse osmosis water and simply adding enough calcium chloride to achieve 30 to 50 ppm of calcium. A 100 mg/l dose of SMB will add 24 ppm sodium to your water, and 76 ppm of sulfur compounds (sulfur dioxide, sulfite, and bisulfite). The amount of sulfate formed will depend upon how much oxygen is introduced into your system and subsequently scavenged by the sulfites. Again, pre-boiling to drive of DO for any water that will come into contact with malts or wort at any point in the process is critical. The use of SMB should only serve to control the ingress of oxygen. We have found other methods capable of removing DO, such as degasing towers and vacuum systems, but is beyond the scope of this guide.

2.4 Mashing
First, heat your mash water and boil vigorously for 5 minutes. Then, force chill it to your strike temperature as quickly as possible. An immersion chiller works well for this, but again, do not use a copper chiller or any copper equipment whatsoever at any point in your process as the oxide layer is very soluble and promotes rapid oxidation of the wort.

Now, add 100 mg of SMB powder for every liter of mash water. If you don't have powder and are instead using Campden tablets, there is 440 mg worth of SMB in each tablet (the rest of the tablet is filler).

2.5 Lautering
A no-sparge system is easier to keep oxygen free than a system that requires a sparge. However, if you are forced to sparge, all of your sparge water should be treated similarly to your mash water - that is, pre-boiled, chilled, and dosed with SMB. A dose of 10-25 mg/l SMB powder is sufficient for sparge water, and you must be absolutely sure to introduce the sparge water in a non-aerating fashion. Again, do not splash or sprinkle from above!

 

[techbrau]

Yes, it absolutely is confusing as it was originally written. We tried to address some of the confusion in the newest revision:

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf

 

[55x11]

Never written all this out before, but I'll give it a try. And know that this stuff isn't set in stone. I'm still learning things with each brew day and making changes. Here's what it is as it stands today.

Here are the specifics of my system:
eBIAB with recirculating mash
62 quart Bayou Classic
MK II pump
Brau Supply 120 v controller (PID)
2x1500 watt elements, one mounted to the kettle, second is a Hot Rod from @Bobby_M
Mash cap made from very large stainless steel cake pan and a bulkhead + tee in the middle
Loc line wort return under mash cap
Plate Chiller, stainless steel brazed with copper

DO Meter:
Don’t have one and I acknowledge the fact that I’m completely flying blind until I get one. At this point I’m simply taking the steps that I know will reduce DO. A meter will be handy when I get to the point where I’ve done everything that I feel is feasible, and if I think my beer still isn’t where it should be then I’ll buy one to trouble shoot the leaks in my process.

Oxygen Scavenging:
Baker’s yeast and dextrose at a dosage rate of 1.6 g/gal and 0.8 g/gal, respectively. Turn on the pump to circulate water and remove air pockets from the system. Allow it to sit for between 45 minutes and 2 hours, depending on what I have going on at the time. Dose with SMB at the end of that time, before ramping up the temp. I’m still trying to figure out how much SMB to use. Was using 100 mg/L because of some misinformation in the PDF that was published, but that was producing some very sulfury beers. Dialed it back down to 25 mg/L the last brew day. No sulfur on the nose, but that might be too low because preliminary results look like the beer came out darker than last time. Will probably go up to 30 mg/L next go round.

WORT PRODUCTION
Milling:
I condition the grain with 1-2% water by weight. I have been adding a pinch of SMB to the conditioning water, but I don’t know that this is necessary. Milling is done as close to dough in as is feasible.

Mash:
I keep hoses as short as possible and use clamps on all my QD to hose barb connections to make sure no oxygen is leaking in. Instead of underletting, I have been slowly lowering the bag full of grain into the mash water. This could be a source of O2 pick up for me, but having read another DO meter wielding BIABer’s account of the issue, it shouldn’t be. I stir minimally with a 24” whisk, trying not to bring any grains to the surface. After that, I put the mash cap in place, let the mash sit a few minutes, then and fire up the pump.

Boiling:
I simmer. I keep boil off rates at 10% or less of initial volume. This is easy to do with an electric system and a controller. For a typical 6 gallon batch I will set the PID to 30% with the other element at 100%, directly plugged into the outlet.

Chiller:
Per the German Brewing folks, the copper in my chiller isn’t ideal. Supposedly there are some super-duper oxidizers found in the oxide layer on copper and aluminum. At this point I’m not convinced that the little amount of copper used to braze those stainless steel plates together is doing much. Even though I can see the little copper lines on the exterior, I couldn’t tell you if there’s any exposed copper on the inside of this thing. I do have a 50’ SS immersion chiller I could be using, but given the ratio of my kettle, it wouldn’t be fully submerged and there’s no doubt it would take longer to chill, exposing the wort to more oxygen in the meantime.

FERMENTATION/PACKAGING
Still working on this one. Currently I use a SS Brewtech Brew Bucket and I do a quasi-gravity feed to the keg. I say quasi because I elevate it, connect the hose to the outlet valve, connect that to the liquid out, remove the air lock and replace it with a CO2 supply hose to backfill the vapor space as it empties. This works OK, but I have a problem keeping the rubber stopper in place for the CO2. I’ve recently bought several more kegs to use as fermentation vessels. In the future the plan will be to ferment under pressure in them and use CO2 to push the finished beer to the serving keg.

I’ve been force carbing (though I did naturally carbonate one lager using the final few gravity points) even though it appears that there’s enough oxygen in the CO2 most of us use to cause some amount of oxidation. I need to figure this part out. Right now the front runner it to let fermentation ride out and then transfer to a serving keg where I can add priming sugar. Because I like to enter my beers into competitions, this would also give me a chance to bottle a few off the primed keg and let them bottle condition.

I guess I also need to mention my keg purging process. Follow this link so I don’t have to type it all out again  https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7691988&postcount=607

I’ll edit this post if I think of anything else to add that I do.

this is an impressive list already and thanks for sharing.
I may go back to trying to avoid aeration on hot side, but several recommendations - like not using copper chiller, or simmering instead of vigorous boiling - while limiting DO, could also be detrimental to beer in many other ways.

Also, I just wanted to point out that the transfer under CO2 (closed) and cold-crashing under CO2 (or in the keg) are relatively simple modifications, while they will result in huge reduction of oxygen in final product. In my (perhaps biased) opinion, paying very close attention to oxygen post-fermentation is definitely worthwhile.

 

[techbrau]

this is an impressive list already and thanks for sharing.
I may go back to trying to avoid aeration on hot side, but several recommendations - like not using copper chiller, or simmering instead of vigorous boiling - while limiting DO, could also be detrimental to beer in many other ways.

Also, I just wanted to point out that the transfer under CO2 (closed) and cold-crashing under CO2 (or in the keg) are relatively simple modifications, while they will result in huge reduction of oxygen in final product. In my (perhaps biased) opinion, paying very close attention to oxygen post-fermentation is definitely worthwhile.

Oxygen control post ferment is absolutely worthwhile.

I don't think of hot side vs cold side oxygen control as being more or less important than the other. The differences that each one causes in the beer are distinct.

The "simmer" is still a boil. I'm still boiling at 212 degrees F, and evaporating 10% of the total liquid. It just _looks_ like a simmer compared to a boil where the wort is practically leaping out of the kettle.

In my experience, boil evaporation % is the number to go by. Target 8-10% in 60 minutes. That level of evaporation is indicative of a boil that is more than sufficient to drive off DMS and give good break formation.

 

[55x11]

Oxygen control post ferment is absolutely worthwhile.

I don't think of hot side vs cold side oxygen control as being more or less important than the other. The differences that each one causes in the beer are distinct.

The "simmer" is still a boil. I'm still boiling at 212 degrees F, and evaporating 10% of the total liquid. It just _looks_ like a simmer compared to a boil where the wort is practically leaping out of the kettle.

In my experience, boil evaporation % is the number to go by. Target 8-10% in 60 minutes. That level of evaporation is indicative of a boil that is more than sufficient to drive off DMS and give good break formation.

so then what do you think of people like Dr. Bamforth, who always very strongly advocates vigorous, rolling boil, for example here:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBKUCkg8cM[/ame]

and as long as I am citing Bamforth, here's another discussion where he talks about HSA specifically (starts around 22 min mark):
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2t_5HrMcc[/ame]

 

[techbrau]

so then what do you think of people like Dr. Bamforth, who always very strongly advocates vigorous, rolling boil, for example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBKUCkg8cM

and as long as I am citing Bamforth, here's another discussion where he talks about HSA specifically (starts around 22 min mark):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2t_5HrMcc

Kunze and Narziss have different opinions than Charlie and they are not lightweights.

I am not going to debate Lodo any more than I already have.

If you are interested in trying it, we've put a wealth of information together and posted it on germanbrewing.net. Doing the mini mash test will take no more than 90 minutes of your time and will let you taste the difference for yourself.

If you're not interested in trying it, I'll take no offense whatsoever.

 

[55x11]

Kunze and Narziss have different opinions than Charlie and they are not lightweights.

I am not going to debate Lodo any more than I already have.

If you are interested in trying it, we've put a wealth of information together and posted it on germanbrewing.net. Doing the mini mash test will take no more than 90 minutes of your time and will let you taste the difference for yourself.

If you're not interested in trying it, I'll take no offense whatsoever.

I am fairly open minded and would like to try it.
But here's the problem I have (as well as others I am sure) - I don't deliberately whip up my mash to a foamy state, I gently move mash around to avoid grist balls that are stuck together. I don't pump my wort, even for 10G batches, I just pour wort gently into the kettle. I don't pre-boil and then chill my water, I don't purge my grain with nitrogen, I do boil vigorously on purpose. In other words - I do standard procedure without deliberately or carelessly introducing oxygen but I don't go to extraordinary lengths to avoid ALL oxygen altogether either - not on the hot side. I am anal about cold side post-fermentation though, and I would claim that there is a very broad consensus that on the cold side you SHOULD always avoid oxygen (once fermentation is complete), while I would also claim there is no consensus about HSA, and if anything, the general trend nowadays seems to be that it's a myth.

Now, the problem with doing mini-mash, is that I need to taste the final product, not just smell the mash. So I need to do an entire batch of beer while purging grist and my mash tun with perhaps CO2, simmer- boiling at 98C instead of 100C, and most importantly - not using my immersion chiller made of copper (perhaps no-chill method?).

I wonder why I don't see that many side-by-side comparisons of the two beers brewed with more or less standard home-brew procedure (don't splash hot wort just for **** and giggles, but also don't worry too much about rate of boil or de-oxygenating your water and grains), and another one that goes to all these "extremes".

I put it on my mental list of things to try, but I don't think it will be very conclusive because of so many parameters involved.

And then there is a question whether ALL beers benefit from this approach, and differences are clearly detectable in a triangle test - or whether it's perhaps Hells and Pils, while IPAs and stouts and red ales are different enough so that the difference is so tiny that it's undetectable. Assuming it is even detectable in beers like Helles, for which we have no real proof either.

 

[TheMerkle]

Speaking of derailing posts... I'm going to interject with what is probably a stupid question, but in LODO brewing, how do you aerate the wort when it comes time to pitch yeast?

 

[techbrau]

Speaking of derailing posts... I'm going to interject with what is probably a stupid question, but in LODO brewing, how do you aerate the wort when it comes time to pitch yeast?

Like you normally would, just after you've pitched the yeast.

At fermentation temperatures, the oxidation reactions that we're trying to avoid in the hot side move significantly slower - on the order of hours to days, rather than seconds to minutes like in the mash and boil. The yeast will consume all of the oxygen that you give them within a matter of minutes.

I just use an aquarium pump with an inline hepa filter and a 2 micron stone. I dangle it at the bottom of the fermenter and run it for 3 hours.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Why not use pure O2?

 

[techbrau]

Why not use pure O2?

You can do that too.

 

[TexasWine]

I wonder why I don't see that many side-by-side comparisons of the two beers brewed with more or less standard home-brew procedure (don't splash hot wort just for **** and giggles, but also don't worry too much about rate of boil or de-oxygenating your water and grains), and another one that goes to all these "extremes".

I've seen pictures comparing the two. The difference is quite incredible. I'll prowl around on the German Brewing site to see if I can dig up any.

@techbrau , do you know of any threads that might have a photo or two comparing finished product?