Does my lacto starter look right?

[erock2112]

I'm planning to brew a gose (OG 1.040) this weekend using S-05 and WLP677 (L. delbrueckii). I made a 1 gallon starter with 8oz malt extract (1.020) on Saturday night and have been keeping it warm in a double boiler-type setup in my brew kettle on the stove. There was no activity on Sunday morning, but by later in the afternoon I started to get some bubbles. Since then, I've seen more bubbles, but, to my disappointment, nothing sinister looking or pellicle-like. I haven't tasted it, but I've opened the foil on the flask and sniffed. It smells like a hefeweizen! I'm wondering if the lacto is dead or inactive and I actually have an "infection" of some kind of yeast. Thoughts? Please excuse the cell phone picture through condensation.

 

[Quaker]

I did similar and it was really slow going for me too. Which reinforced that it was a good idea to do a starter. I ended up bailing on souring my saison a bit before pitching the sacch yeast, because the starter seemed so feeble on day 3 when I was brewing. So I now have a Russian River growler which I keep feeding with Lacto from WLP and Cascade dregs, so that I'm ready the next time.

I'm interested in other's experiences.

 

[erock2112]

I just tasted a little of my starter, and it tastes like it smells: fruit and cloves, just as if I'd put hefe yeast in there. Not a hint of acidity. So, unless the tube contained some, I've got an "infection" of wild yeast. To be honest, it doesn't taste bad at all, but definitely not what I wanted. I guess my options are:

• Brew the beer and pitch S-05 without lacto. Add lactic acid after fermentation.
• Brew the beer, pitch the "lacto" starter, and hope that it grows
• Try a sour mash, with or without the starter
• Something else? I guess I could also toss some milled grains into the starter to see what happens.

Thoughts/recommendations? It'd be nice to know whether this is typical and lacto is just very slow to start.

 

[Barley_Bob]

L. delbrueckii is somewhat infamous for its lack of acidity.

WLP677 ...The Berliner weisse I fermented with this strain alone achieved 75% apparent attenuation, but only a faint tartness.

The same guy (Michael Tonsmeire) said it was the worst [homebrewing] product he'd ever used in a recent HBT interview with Austin.

I've used it myself, and I wasn't super crazy about the results. I got it much tarter by racking the berliner I used it in onto rhubarb. I'm still not crazy about the results, but at least it's tart.

 

[Quaker]

That hefe character is same as I got in my early starter. It wasn't enough for me to assume infection, I just thought I was smelling the original sweet wort.

 

[mnick12]

I had a similair hefe/belgian character from a lacto starter a few years ago.

More recently I have isolated a yeast from germinating barley that produces these types of phenolics.

I dont think its anything to worry about

 

[berebrando]

I had a similar experience with a vial of L delbrueckii from white labs. It looked like a normal yeast fermentation and only dropped the pH to about 4.1 with about 80% attenuation. These results were not inconsistent with past experiences with this strain (multiple occasions that are also consistent with TMF's blog).

I did a side by side with several other strains and some of the pure Brett blends/cultures ended up having lower pH and better attenuation than the pure L delbrueckii culture. Go figure.

I have since done a commercial order of both White Labs Lacto strains and I am having a fairly different experience - the pure L delbrueckii was pitched last Saturday and is not producing any bubbles (yet).

 

[erock2112]

L. delbrueckii is somewhat infamous for its lack of acidity.



The same guy (Michael Tonsmeire) said it was the worst [homebrewing] product he'd ever used in a recent HBT interview with Austin.

I've used it myself, and I wasn't super crazy about the results. I got it much tarter by racking the berliner I used it in onto rhubarb. I'm still not crazy about the results, but at least it's tart.

Quote-in-a-quote isn't working, but that link describing the commercial strains is awesome! (http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html)

So it sounds like what I'm seeing is the intended behavior for this strain, and unfortunately that's not what I want in this beer. I think I'll make up a new starter, pitch a handful of grain into it and see what happens. If that doesn't produce anything desirable I'll just brew the beer "clean" and add lactic acid post-ferment.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I know, that guy is great, right? He's Oldsock on HBT.

I wish I'd known about Lacto d before I paid cash for it too, but I think you have a decent plan. You could try a sour mash too. Anyway, I might use this lacto strain again, but if I did, it would be in a blend. You could buy some other strains or work with some dregs. There's lots of options. Best of luck!

 

[erock2112]

I wish I'd known about Lacto d before I paid cash for it too, but I think you have a decent plan. You could try a sour mash too. Anyway, I might use this lacto strain again, but if I did, it would be in a blend. You could buy some other strains or work with some dregs. There's lots of options. Best of luck!

Yeah, I thought about the sour mash but figured doing it on a small scale with the starter would be safer in case I get something gnarly. Thanks!

 

[NHBrews]

I used a sour wort method described here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/gose-has-bready-doughy-aroma-518163/ that yielded a relatively clean tartness (3.8ph prior to boil and pitching saccharomyces, not vomit aromas). Only done it once so may have just been luck and do have some undesired bready aroma, but hoping it is just the Sacc I used, not the souring method

 

[abelapophis]

You're better off using wyeast L. Brevis. Its a more aggressive strain of lacto that sours faster. I use that for my gose and berliners.

 

[abelapophis]

Oh and I do the kettle sour method and have never made a lacto starter.

 

[jahdub]

I only tried it once, but I did a 2L sour starter with some crushed grains and it came out fantastic. The starter was very sour and drinkable, on its own. Maintained about 100-110 degrees over 3-4 days in a sealed container with a handful of grains.

 

[NHBrews]

You're better off using wyeast L. Brevis. Its a more aggressive strain of lacto that sours faster. I use that for my gose and berliners.

Interesting, I'd like to try other strains to potential get a bit lower ph. Do you know how low yours got in the kettle? Would it have kept dropping.

Mine staled at 3.8, I've been stepping up a small sample I saved from my gose kettle in a 1gal jug and I've checked the ph after each step... Stops souring at 3.8 every time.

 

[abelapophis]

Unfortunately I have only recently purchased a ph meter but have yet to brew a berliner since so I don't know the ph levels I reached.

 

[erock2112]

Update: The starter I made with the handful of grains seemed to work well! I got plain bubbles like I saw with the WLP677 but the taste and smell are much different this time: grainy, fruity, and tart. I brewed the gose today and pitched the new starter since there weren't any nasty vomit or rot flavors or aromas. We'll see what happens!

 

[erock2112]

Well, it's been 12 days and activity seems to have stopped. The beer seems only very slightly tart, but that may just be due to the low FG at 1.004. Should I wait longer for the lacto to work, or do you think it's done? I was under the impression that lacto worked quickly by itself, so I was expecting it to be finished. The only reason I'm rushing it is because I need to make room for another beer!