Do you Aerate your Wort ?

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Oh god...how come noone put to bed this HSA nonsense??????

HSA is another one of those myths for the homebrewers. And heck, even many commercial breweries debate it's merits.

You'll find that many of us who use immersion chillers begin stirring the wort immediately as well as moving it up and down and creating quite a bit of o2 in there.

HSA, another bogeyman for homebrewers....another thing that made the leap from commercial breweries of tastless lager that has to have a long shelf life and absolutely no flavor (good or bad) otherwise.

Hot-side aeration may be demonstrated in medium and large commercial breweries because the brewing equipment is so big that splashing is a really dramatic event. Think of liquid flowing through a six-inch pipe at 400 gallons per minute and cascading 12 feet through the air before hitting the bottom of a tank. (Maybe, see video below.)

But to the home brewer it's only a bogeyman....

I love the quote about the Basic Brewing experiments on Maltybrew.com

Hot-side aeration…myth?

I listened to a great podcast from Basic Brewing Radio yesterday on hot-side aeration. Everyone seems to debate whether or not this is a concern for homebrewing. The podcast covers an experiment done by some homebrewers in Austin where they try hard to cause HSA in a small batch.

I was never too concerned about HSA in my brewing and now I think I’m even less concerned.

FYI, here are the basic brewing podcasts on it...

March 16, 2006 - Hot Side Aeration
Charles, Chris, James and BrianWe travel to Austin Homebrew Supply in Austin, Texas to taste the results of Brian Warren's experiment in Hot Side Aeration. The experiment produced some very surprising and interesting results.

Click to listen

June 22, 2006 - Two Homebrew Experiments
froth_sm.jpgWe hear from two homebrew experiments: William Tope, a high school student from Houston, Texas, delves into whether alpha acid levels of hops affect fermentation rates, and the Hot Side Aeration experiment continues with Brian Warren and John Holder.

Click to listen

November 2, 2006 - HSA Experiment: Final Chapter
Andy Sparks and James Spencer join Brian Warren and John Holder in Denver to taste the last round of samples in the Hot Side Aeration experiment. We also get feedback about the experiment from John Palmer.

Click to listen

Most of those who "claim" it are brand new brewers who "think" they know somethings wrong with their beer when it usually it's just green beer, and later when they taste their beer again, weeks late they usually come back and say the beer is fine. An equal number have blamed an off flavor on diactly or even autolysis, until we point out certain facts about those different things, and again a few weeks later they usually post their embarrassment at being so freaked out back then.

We're not saying you don't practice good brewing techniques, of any types, just that most of those things that new brewers panic about, that they read about in books is worst case scenario stuff, misunderstood conjecture that has been handed down over the years as "canon" with little or no validity, something that is of more worry to commercial operations or lager breweries, or myths that have been disproven in light of modern brewing science, that was based on OLD brewing info.

And in reality our beer is a lot more resililiant than most new brewers believe, because at their stage of brewing they understand just enough to be dangerous.

It takes a lot of abuse to ruin our beer...and even the "day to day" mistakes that we make is often NOT enough to ruin our beer. Its pretty hardy stuff.

If you read the stories in here, of "mistakes" that people have made here, you will come to realize that a lot of stuff happens in the normal course of brewing, and the beer still manages to survive, so if you make a mistake, you don't need to immedietly panic and assume your beer is ruined.....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/wh...where-your-beer-still-turned-out-great-96780/

And a lot of stuff can be corrected with time anyway.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

In years of brewing and in helping panic new brewers I've yet to find cases where it wasn't a false alarm in just about anything any new brewer has claimed, and that is the case for the dreaded HSA, Autolysis, and 99.95% of the new brewer infection threads as well.

I'll save you the bother of searching, but here's a few of those new brewer HSA panic threads...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hot-side-aeration-so-im-idiot-71873/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/who-afraid-hsa-76779/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/hot-side-aeration-71806/

HSA is something that get's discussed by commercial brewers in journals, and some overzealous homebrewer then starts worrying about it, and it get spread into the HOBBY community, with little understanding...and then people brewing thier first beer start threads worrying about it...

So don't sweat your new brewer head about HSA....or anything, you beer is much hardier than you think...

And if you still are worried, then watch this video of a commercial brewhouse...

You think they are concerned about HSA? :D


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uyKjLTWJA]YouTube - Transferring from Mash Tun to Boil Kettle[/ame]

And you might also note that if HSA WERE really a big issue for homebrewers there would more than likely be hundreds of threads on it like there are on just about everything else on here. But there's not...it tends to be a non-issue, usually just a few panic threads, where the nervous new brewer just assumes because he made a simple mistake, that he is sure that what he read about is happening to him. There are almost no true and in depth discussions about it, with actual experienced brewers and beer judges, of which there are a few hundred on here who can cite instances where they have tasted HSA in beers. It's kind of like bigfoot sightings, you never find any ethnobiologist or zooologists stumbling upon them on their walks and capturing them. :)

Aerate away gang.....
 
So aeration speeds up fermentation ? Am I understanding this correctly ? I ask because I have only brewed 2 batches and didn't aerate either one. By the way, I stirred the heck out of my hot wort to cool it down quicker. Both my beers taste great.....to me anyway.
 
Yep. Revvy pretty much covered it all, but aerating gets the ball rolling faster and may help your attenuation. I've been pleasantly surprised at how well it has worked since I started using a stone and pump. You can still get good beer without it, though.
 
I use a mesh screen that does this really well. No issues yet. I have also done this since my first batch so not sure if there are any ill affects compaired to not doing it.
 
So aeration speeds up fermentation ? Am I understanding this correctly ? I ask because I have only brewed 2 batches and didn't aerate either one. By the way, I stirred the heck out of my hot wort to cool it down quicker. Both my beers taste great.....to me anyway.

The yeast need oxygen to reproduce and to do their jobs effectively, just like we humans do. If we have enough oxygen we have more energy, our brain fires faster, yadda yadda yadda (I've come to realize that with my heart problems I don't get enough blood flow, and therefore I don't get enough oxygen so I'm sluggish and have low energy and am tired alot of the time.) I don't perform at my most effective.

The same with the yeast.

One of the side efftects of boiling our wort, we are boiling out all the oxygen in the solution. So if we dump our yeast into out cooled wort without aerating we're dumping them into an environment where they aren't going to get the o2 they need to preform. SO they are not going to work as fast. They are not going to reproduce that fast and not get to the numbers they need to do their job, so fermentation is going to start slow.

Like for me on a humid day or where there is an "Ozone Action Day." Where the environment isn't conducive to getting a good breath.

And since the yeast is going to be working stressed, they are not going to cleanly eat their sugar, so they are going to create waste, and we're goign to get off flavors. And they are going to die off sooner and we may get stuck fermentations.

But there is really a short window of time where oxygen is beneficial, and that is before fermentation really gets going, like within the first 12 hours after yeast pitch. Once there is more alcohol/beer than wort, then oxygen causes the beer to go bad, to get cardnoardy taste, that is why AFTER fermentation it is a bad idea to splash around your beer too much.

The other thing that happens is that as the yeast starts fermenting besides making alcohol they produce co2 and eventually there is no O2 in the fermenter....co2 comes out of the airlock, if there is excess, but eventually it will reach equilibrium where the airlock may not bubble but the fermenter is full of co2....
 
I started aerating recently and have been very pleased with the results. My yeast kicks into gear faster and I get a fuller fermentation. I use an inline aerator I made. Basically I took some tube, some hose barbs, and a union. drilled 3 small holes in the union and it goes between the drain on my BK and the fermenter so as I drain the bk air gets sucked into it thru the holes. It also goes thru a fine mesh seive. I usually get a good inch and a half of foam on the surface of the wort in the fermenter before I pitch from this
 
But there is really a short window of time where oxygen is beneficial, and that is before fermentation really gets going, like within the first 12 hours after yeast pitch. Once there is more alcohol/beer than wort, then oxygen causes the beer to go bad, to get cardnoardy taste, that is why AFTER fermentation it is a bad idea to splash around your beer too much.

Quick question around timing of aerating. I use a mix stir (http://www.midwestsupplies.com/the-stainless-steel-mix-stir.html) to aerate. My process is 1) chill with immersion chiller, 2) whirlpool with spoon, 3) rest for ~30min, 4) rack from side of kettle into carboy while running through funnel with screen, 5) use mix stir, 6) add yeast. Can I flip steps 5 & 6? I would aerate immediately after adding the yeast.

I'm thinking of racking onto a yeast cake, so I won't be able to aerate before adding the yeast. Thoughts?
 
I tend to use my IC rather vigorously and consider that my aeration. I tend to get a decent amount of bubbles going after stirring and sloshing it around for 15 minutes. I dont know if this is really sufficient but it seems to give me good fermentations so far.
 
I want to add to debunk this myth.
Once I had to pour my mash, from one mash tun into another since the tubing got clogged when I was trying to vorlauf.

I litterally POURED 7 gallons of 154 degree water from one cooler into another. Tons of froth and bubbles.... went through with the brewing process (extremely worried the beer was ruined) and there were NO signs of HSA.

It may have been fine since whatever got trapped may have been boiled off, but supposedly the oxygen binds with the sugars in HSA so boiling would not fix it, yet, no problems at all.
 
DamageCT said:
Totally off topic but has anyone in this forum ever actually experienced HSA?

Uh. Seriously? You didn't read Revvys sermon...I mean post did you?

Let's paraphrase what Revvy explained. "No!"
 
This is part of some research I am doing on an older style beer I am trying to find everything out about that I can.

But, apparently aeration cooling on hot wort has been around since the 1800s.

THE HANFORD-STANFORD COMPANY, No. 603 Sears Building.— The system of cooling liquids by aeration is essentially a modern institution, of quite recent origin, but it has become so indispensable to the brewing industry that it is a matter of wonder how they have managed to exist so long without it. The leader in the introduction of this system in Boston is the Hanford-Stanford Company which has patented devices for cooling and aerating beer in tubs or wort receivers. The object of the Hanford-Stanford apparatus is to place the hot beer in a surface cooler in the form of a spray and to utilize every possible foot of the cooler surface for two reasons; first, to get a thorough hot aeration by so dividing the atomizers that the cooler is well covered, and avoiding intermingling of the spray; secondly greatly increased cooling effect. After five years' practical work in this one branch of the brewing art, this company place before the trade the result of their experience, as shown in the present excellent apparatus. They guarantee a saving of fifty percent, in time of cooling, a large saving in refrigerating liquids and water, an improved yeast and fermentation, and a resulting beer of better keeping qualities than by the present method. It shows the highly beneficial effect of a hot aeration upon beer, and the resulting yeast is of first-class fermenting power, cells large, uniform, settling quickly and proving conclusively that oxygen is of the first importance in the formation and perpetuation of a healthy yeast

Reference is made to the following among the many using this apparatus, to wit: The Bergner &
Engel Brewing Company, Philadelphia; Anheuser-Busch Brewing Association, St. Louis; R. F. Haffenreffer & Co., Frank Jones Brewing Company, Boston; Jacob Ruppert, Peter Doelger , Wm. A. Miles Brewing Company, the Consumers Brewing Company [Limited], the John Kress Brewing Company, New York City; Prospect Brewing Company, Chr. Schmidt, Class & Nachod Brewing Company, F. A. Poth, Arnholdt & Schsefer Brewing Company, Philadelphia' Budweiser Brewing Company, Long Island Brewing Company, Brooklyn; P. Schoenhofen Brewing Company, Ernst Fecker Brewing Company, McAvoy Brewing Company, Ernst Bros. United States Branch Brewing Company; Wacker <fc Birk, Chicago; Chr. Moerlein Brewing Company, Cincinnati; the National Brewing Com-
pany; Geo. Bauernschmidt Brewing Company, Baltimore; Jos. Hensler Brewing Company, Newark, N. J.; Chr. Heurich Brewing Company, Washington, D. C; Quinnipiac Brewing Company, New Haven, Conn. ; Wm. Peter Brewing Company, Union Hill. N. J. The president, Mr. Hanford, and the general manager, Mr. Stanford, are the inventors of the apparatus and give their close personal attention to the promotion of the best interests of the company. Under its present management the continued success and permanent prosperity _of the company is well assured.

citation: http://archive.org/stream/bostonitscommerc1892conn/bostonitscommerc1892conn_djvu.txt
 
I am going to use an o2 bottle and a fish tank stone. Is it possible to over oxygenate my wort? If so. How long do i run the aerator for a Shiner Bock clone?
 
I am going to use an o2 bottle and a fish tank stone. Is it possible to over oxygenate my wort? If so. How long do i run the aerator for a Shiner Bock clone?

You can't harm your beer by giving it too much oxygen.

I run mine for 1-2 minutes...I basically just count "1 mississippi, 2 mississippi," until I get to 60, and start again.
 
Heres a good discussion on probrewer and they indicate over oxygenation is possible and describe the effects: http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?28004-Too...oxygen

Remember though, a lot of the discussions/issues found on the large scale in commercial breweries don't really relate to our teeny tiny batches. And the biggest mistake many people including people like John Palmer initially did was thinking that, and that just breeds fear in many a noob. A lot of things in How To Brew for instance, he admitted taking from professional discussions, and then later backed off on when he realized in many ways it's two completely different animals.

Just because it is possible and detectable in a 10,000 barrel system, with a huge compressed air system pumping in a lot of oxygen doesn't mean it's applicable in 5 gallons, with for example an airstone and small oxygen bottle. Someone earlier in this thread from years ago brought this point up.

Those discussions, as fascinating though they may be, can actually breed fear and mis-information when brought down to the hobby level.
 
No I don't (any more) In my first years off brewing I always aerated my wort when above the 1070's, more then 1 tests ( up to 1103 ) gave me no better result in fermentation.

So I believe it's a myth
 
Remember though, a lot of the discussions/issues found on the large scale in commercial breweries don't really relate to our teeny tiny batches. And the biggest mistake many people including people like John Palmer initially did was thinking that, and that just breeds fear in many a noob. A lot of things in How To Brew for instance, he admitted taking from professional discussions, and then later backed off on when he realized in many ways it's two completely different animals.



Just because it is possible and detectable in a 10,000 barrel system, with a huge compressed air system pumping in a lot of oxygen doesn't mean it's applicable in 5 gallons, with for example an airstone and small oxygen bottle. Someone earlier in this thread from years ago brought this point up.



Those discussions, as fascinating though they may be, can actually breed fear and mis-information when brought down to the hobby level.


Your likely a more advanced brewer than I am, so I respect what you're saying even though your kind or warning me here. Why don't you count a lot more Mississippi's next time while injecting oxygen and see if it ruins your batch.

At the least, your claim that one cannot inject to much oxygen into a batch is slightly muted by the fact your limiting your own oxy injections to such short time periods.

I'm just using filtered air so it doesn't concern me at this point but I suspect there's more to the story than "it can't be done".
 
You can get too much, and it can lead to off-flavors. Also, I think the guy at Brulosophy did some experiments, if I remember correctly.
 
In response to OP question:
Yes, but only for last 5 - 6 batches with one of the airpumps / .2 micron stone setups from morebeer (~$30)....I have NOT noticed any difference.

If I could have the pump or my $30 back...I would like my $30 back please.
Plus - it extends the brew day - in my case - with no detectable return on the investment for the pump nor my time - the beer is still beer.
YMMV
 
I aerate @ pitching temps as soon as the carboys are filled with a stone and a 7$ 02 bottle from Lowes. 60 secs for each carboy and then yeast is pitched (given then temp is where I want it).
 
Quick question, what are ill effects of aerating after you pitch your yeast?

It's what I usually do, and it sounds like it's the incorrect thing to do...
 
Your likely a more advanced brewer than I am, so I respect what you're saying even though your kind or warning me here. Why don't you count a lot more Mississippi's next time while injecting oxygen and see if it ruins your batch.

At the least, your claim that one cannot inject to much oxygen into a batch is slightly muted by the fact your limiting your own oxy injections to such short time periods.

I'm just using filtered air so it doesn't concern me at this point but I suspect there's more to the story than "it can't be done".



I have a centennial pale ale that I've made at least 30 times. It's kinda my "house brew". I'm not sure it's even a pale ale with an og of 70, but whatever. Lol! I have always aerated it with my o2 tank. I made the mistake of using the bathroom after starting the aeration process. Next thing I know, my wife is calling me for something dumb, kids start fighting upstairs, something gets spilled on the couch... etc etc etc. Lol!

Anyways, I forgot and left the o2 on the whole time. Almost 30 minutes in a 5 gallon batch. End result...


Everything was the same. Lag time, amount of days fermenting, flavor, appearance. Nothing was different. I thought it was gonna be ruined. I was dead wrong.


To be fair, I've made the same batch and didn't aerate at all. Everything was still the same, except it took about 12 hours more before it became active.



I'm starting to question the validity of oxygenating for 5g batches. Shaking may not even be necessary. I may just start "splash pouring"...
 
Years ago I had a batch that was really slow to launch and had to pitch new yeast as a result of that I searched around and I started using yeast starters and an O2 stone, I just put the stone in for thirty seconds into each fermenter (I split ten gallon batches between two carboys) and I have had excellent results, knock on wood. :)
 
Quick question, what are ill effects of aerating after you pitch your yeast?

It's what I usually do, and it sounds like it's the incorrect thing to do...

Now I'm curious too. I use the shake method after pitching yest to help combine. Figure that the whole point is to make the oxygen available to them...
 
I have a centennial pale ale that I've made at least 30 times. It's kinda my "house brew". I'm not sure it's even a pale ale with an og of 70, but whatever. Lol! I have always aerated it with my o2 tank. I made the mistake of using the bathroom after starting the aeration process. Next thing I know, my wife is calling me for something dumb, kids start fighting upstairs, something gets spilled on the couch... etc etc etc. Lol!

Anyways, I forgot and left the o2 on the whole time. Almost 30 minutes in a 5 gallon batch. End result...


Everything was the same. Lag time, amount of days fermenting, flavor, appearance. Nothing was different. I thought it was gonna be ruined. I was dead wrong.


To be fair, I've made the same batch and didn't aerate at all. Everything was still the same, except it took about 12 hours more before it became active.



I'm starting to question the validity of oxygenating for 5g batches. Shaking may not even be necessary. I may just start "splash pouring"...

Great to hear about your "over"oxygenating. I've never used pure O2. I've never had my beers judged so I don't want to say there are no flaws and present all of my findings as fact... but I've never once had a beer not reach FG, or noticed any fusely off-flavors. Even 1.1 stouts reaching predicted terminal gravity. That's enough for me to be fine with splash aerating! I also pitch pretty sizeably slurries though so I have good yeast health/counts. I am experimenting with a venturi tubing setup though for fun. I like bubblez.
 
When I'm draining the chilled wort from the kettle into the bucket fermenter, I whip the tubing back and forth in a zig-zag pattern so that the wort gets splashed around as it enters the bucket. At the same time, I have the tip of my left foot underneath the edge of the bucket, which allows me to "rock" the bucket back and forth. By pacing the "rocking" motion just right, you get some pretty violent sloshing with very little effort. I find this so much easier than putting the lid on the filled bucket and attempting to shake it; I did that once and swore to never again.
 
I've had a bit of a difference with oxygenating wort. Two batches of the same beer. Ferment was the same, same times, same yeast, same temps, etc.

Batch one with O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Nice clean ferment, beer's good.

Batch two, No O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Ferment looked good, beer has acetaldehyde/green apples. Not a lot, but noticeable.

Seems that properly oxygenated worts ferment and finish out faster.
 
I've had a bit of a difference with oxygenating wort. Two batches of the same beer. Ferment was the same, same times, same yeast, same temps, etc.

Batch one with O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Nice clean ferment, beer's good.

Batch two, No O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Ferment looked good, beer has acetaldehyde/green apples. Not a lot, but noticeable.

Seems that properly oxygenated worts ferment and finish out faster.


If only you had the third member...over oxygenated wort!!!
 
I have a centennial pale ale that I've made at least 30 times. It's kinda my "house brew". I'm not sure it's even a pale ale with an og of 70, but whatever. Lol! I have always aerated it with my o2 tank. I made the mistake of using the bathroom after starting the aeration process. Next thing I know, my wife is calling me for something dumb, kids start fighting upstairs, something gets spilled on the couch... etc etc etc. Lol!

Anyways, I forgot and left the o2 on the whole time. Almost 30 minutes in a 5 gallon batch. End result...


Everything was the same. Lag time, amount of days fermenting, flavor, appearance. Nothing was different. I thought it was gonna be ruined. I was dead wrong.


To be fair, I've made the same batch and didn't aerate at all. Everything was still the same, except it took about 12 hours more before it became active.



I'm starting to question the validity of oxygenating for 5g batches. Shaking may not even be necessary. I may just start "splash pouring"...

I pour my wort through a funnel. I've been shaking, but I'm thinking that the pour is probably adequate. It seems to splash enough. I guess it might be time to experiment.
 
Seems that properly oxygenated worts ferment and finish out faster.


This is very possible, and most likely.

My results could differ because I never brew a 14 day Grain to Carbed Keg batch. I minimum primary 3-4 weeks, then set and forget for another 2 weeks. That amount of time could definitely allow yeast to clean up after themselves.

Why be in such a rush? Buy more kegs for your pipeline! You know you want to... Lol!

:mug:
 
I've got plenty of kegs, brewing time not so much lately! Trying to get the pipeline filled again. Besides, if it's done, why leave it in the fermenter?
 
Quick question, what are ill effects of aerating after you pitch your yeast?

It's what I usually do, and it sounds like it's the incorrect thing to do...
None, some beers (higher gravity) I am told benefit from a 2nd shot of O2 a day or two later.

...Anyways, I forgot and left the o2 on the whole time. Almost 30 minutes in a 5 gallon batch. End result...


Everything was the same. Lag time, amount of days fermenting, flavor, appearance. Nothing was different. I thought it was gonna be ruined. I was dead wrong.


To be fair, I've made the same batch and didn't aerate at all. Everything was still the same, except it took about 12 hours more before it became active.


I'm starting to question the validity of oxygenating for 5g batches. Shaking may not even be necessary. I may just start "splash pouring"...

Interesting story. I bought into the O2 setup and have been mostly doing this for the past year, and have wondered about under, over and non-oxygenating. Exbeeriment time!

When I'm draining the chilled wort from the kettle into the bucket fermenter, I whip the tubing back and forth in a zig-zag pattern so that the wort gets splashed around as it enters the bucket. At the same time, I have the tip of my left foot underneath the edge of the bucket, which allows me to "rock" the bucket back and forth. By pacing the "rocking" motion just right, you get some pretty violent sloshing with very little effort. I find this so much easier than putting the lid on the filled bucket and attempting to shake it; I did that once and swore to never again.

Ah yes, this is why I got my O2 setup. Too much work/babysitting there!

I've had a bit of a difference with oxygenating wort. Two batches of the same beer. Ferment was the same, same times, same yeast, same temps, etc.

Batch one with O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Nice clean ferment, beer's good.

Batch two, No O2: Grain to carbonated keg, 14 days. Ferment looked good, beer has acetaldehyde/green apples. Not a lot, but noticeable.

Seems that properly oxygenated worts ferment and finish out faster.

That's also what I've noticed. I just had a 1 week in the bottle GP Mosaic smash and was amazed how "finished" (and good!) it was already. This weekend is week #2 in and am looking forward to the next one!
 
Quick question, what are ill effects of aerating after you pitch your yeast?

It's what I usually do, and it sounds like it's the incorrect thing to do...


This is what I was taught to do and have done successfully for over four years. Keep in min you do not need to use O2 w/ dry yeast/ rehydrated or not.
 
I "borrowed" my other half's handheld wine vinturi. With the help of a metal coat hanger, I am able to run my line to the top and hold the vinturi from the top of my primary bucket. I control the flow by the ball valve on the MK. so far, so great!
 
I started using an aerating setup about a 4 batches ago. So far it seems to help with my higher gravity beers to give the yeast enough oxygen to more fully attenuate. I'll probably have a better sense of it after a few more batches.
 
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