Do lagers bother you?

[JONNYROTTEN]

I don't get this particular argument that the extremely high consistency, quality control and clean tasting product that these huge companies produce is something that demands my respect.

They spend a tremendous amount of money, time and effort on quality control.

AHHHHHH .....this is the definition of respect

 

[303Dan]

Dan, can I get a clarification? Are you saying you cannot respect all the time and effort they go through and money spent to make sure they can brew a beer that comes out the same every time and has extreme quality? or are you saying you cannot respect the style beer?
I may not like the beer, but it takes a lot of effort to make it. I respect the effort use and precision they can achieve.

Of course I can respect the time and effort they spend accomplishing that goal. The same way I respect Dannon Yogurt, for example, for churning out a high quality product with extreme consistency.

I'm just saying that I don't think that level of quality control is necessarily the mark of great brewing talent. And I don't understand why, as a homebrewer, that's something I need to particularly admire and strive for or measure myself against. I take a huge amount of pride in the processes I've developed and the beer I make and I put a lot of time, thought and effort (and money, frankly, much to my wife's chagrin) into how I can continue to improve my beer. But I don't see how that third decimal place in the 99.999% consistency rate (or whatever) is ever a relevant goal on the home brewing scale. And I have no issue whatsoever with their product, other than choosing not to buy it.

That being said, do I think it's a very difficult task on the homebrewing scale using the equipment and processes at our disposal to reproduce that product? Yes I do.

It seems like you feel the need to defend these companies and this style of beer. I've seen you pursuing this line of argument in several threads. That style already owns like 90% of the market. I don't think it needs protecting.

Anyway, all of this is just one man's opinion.

 

[bajaedition]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

 

[303Dan]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

LOL. Okay, I think we're done.

 

[jabba11]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

I wont deny I still drink BMC when its all there is etc. I don't absolutley hate it. Its flavorless fizzy water. Somebody mentioned that they sell a lot of it for a reason. If you research it some youll find out that the reasons Americans drink watered down fizzy lagers has more to do with money and market domination than quality or taste. Its what we are used to. It is impressive that they can make beer with the consistency that they do yes. Much of that consistency has to with automation, equipment, and techniques not available to the average home brewer. Im sure there is a certain level of skill as well in some aspects. That doesn't mean what they are producing is.. good. Bud makes zero peoples lists of best tasting Lager in the world. Brewing is more craft than art really. A guy like Sam Calagione walks a finer line Id say but in general brewing is a step by step process much like cooking. BMC is the Mcdonalds of the brewing world. They make decent fries, people buy a ton of them. Theres hella better fries out there

 

[bajaedition]

I wont deny I still drink BMC when its all there is etc. I don't absolutley hate it. Its flavorless fizzy water. Somebody mentioned that they sell a lot of it for a reason. If you research it some youll find out that the reasons Americans drink watered down fizzy lagers has more to do with money and market domination than quality or taste. Its what we are used to. It is impressive that they can make beer with the consistency that they do yes. Much of that consistency has to with automation, equipment, and techniques not available to the average home brewer. Im sure there is a certain level of skill as well in some aspects. That doesn't mean what they are producing is.. good. Bud makes zero peoples lists of best tasting Lager in the world. Brewing is more craft than art really. A guy like Sam Calagione walks a finer line Id say but in general brewing is a step by step process much like cooking. BMC is the Mcdonalds of the brewing world. They make decent fries, people buy a ton of them. Theres hella better fries out there

funny Part of all this discussion is we all agree that they are not our style of beer
and craft beers are better
but
market trend is a huge slowdown in craft beer gaining market
and an emerging trend of cheap brands like High Life having to increase production to meet demand.
I find that interesting. Another trend is hard liqours and wine sales are growing faster than beer sales.

what I am saying is that what we all want, is often not what the majority wants. It seems that most of America wants fizzy water downed beer, no matter how much we discuss it. Go into any market and look at the beer box, and look at the warm beer selection. Production is driven by demand, it is not like there are no outlets so the fizzy stuff sells because there is no good stuff around. It sells because of the demand for it. And nothing we can say will decrease that demand. No Matter what any of us say, at the end of the day that fizzy water downed stuff outsells craft beer by a huge amount.

 

[jabba11]

craft beer market share is up 7% since just 2011 that's a huge amount all things considered. So much so the large breweries are busy buying up as many as they can take on. it does seem to be slowing. Hell Inbev bought out northern brewer? The market is pretty saturated IMHO and may be due a drawback but craft brewing is here to stay for sure (if it isn't all bought out by Inbev sabmiller anyway).

 

[jabba11]

Like I said .. McDonalds sells a lot fries, that doesn't mean they are anywhere near the BEST fries. They have the facilities and established market share and people have been eating their fries a long time.

 

[bajaedition]

craft beer market share is up 7% since just 2011 that's a huge amount all things considered. So much so the large breweries are busy buying up as many as they can take on. it does seem to be slowing. Hell Inbev bought out northern brewer? The market is pretty saturated IMHO and may be due a drawback but craft brewing is here to stay for sure (if it isn't all bought out by Inbev sabmiller anyway).

Yes it is here to stay, and that is why companies like IN Bev are buying it up, they want to be making the money off of it. It is high profit, it is natural for the big 3 to want their share, why would they shut down high profit production for lower profit production? but its growth has slowed. and fizzy water downed beer is starting to grow again. In October 2016 Miller Coors released that the yearly production of their DISCOUNT beers was 48 million barrels, now compare that to Craft beer producing less than 30 million barrels.

I totally agree with you about market saturation.

this has been a good discusion

 

[bajaedition]

Like I said .. McDonalds sells a lot fries, that doesn't mean they are anywhere near the BEST fries. They have the facilities and established market share and people have been eating their fries a long time.

Funny thing is all our discussion is directly relatable to the burger industry, or the pizza industry or the ............
Life goes on, we have passions so we pursue them

 

[jabba11]

I wonder if these numbers take tap houses into consderation. I see a lot more tap houses opening than traditional "canning or bottling" breweries.

 

[bajaedition]

could not say, I sourced the national brewers Assc. but do not know if they count such places

 

[SanPancho]

dan makes good point. i dont believe that the means justify the ends. high tech or not, BMC is ****ty beer. period. what's the point of unlimited resources and technical prowess if the result is similar to your average friday night urinal deposit?

now, when it comes to BMC, do i drink it? yes. at the rancho, at some concert where its the best available, or if i'm offered it and dont want to offend by refusing. there's a time and a place for everything under the sun.

now as for style, well, lager is delicious. but not BMC. and not Tecate. and having literally been around the world and back i'd say that most mass produced lagers are pretty crappy. if i had the option, i would take a homebrew lager by a decent brewer over a mass produced product. there are a few exceptions, like Bohemia, Hofbrau original, some random delicious beer i had in hungary i can't pronouce or spell, etc. but generally, i think a home brew lager is probly closer to what the style traditionally used to be before industrialization and mass production.

so when you frame it that way, how much respect do the BMC guys really deserve if i would rather drink my own lager? or yours? if you had all the technical resources and scientific knowledge in the world and you used it to make poopie-flavored lollipops, does that demand respect? as the most bad ass, high tech, feces-flavored treat in the world? really?

i used to think it deserved respect. but now i agree with dan. the means do NOT justify the ends. i'll drink it if the time and place are right, but i dont respect it any more.

303Dan you've changed me.

 

[brewcat]

dan makes good point. i dont believe that the means justify the ends. high tech or not, BMC is ****ty beer. period.

Not all of it. I'll take Coors Banquet over a lot of beers. Banquet is good beer.

 

[casualbrewer]

Yeah there are a lot of good "lagers" out there but there are many categories of lager including American and American light. Can you make a good one? Kind of sounds like you just dislike BMC products. What they make pretty much defines those styles completely. The joy of being a good home Brewers is having an idea or style your trying to nail, perfecting the recipe, perfecting the process, and enjoying a beer that you imagined or is perfectly to style. Anyone can throw a ton of hops or malt at something and make it cover up the flaws. Not everyone can make a perfectly balanced to style beer. And whether you like it or not the American lager and especially the light lager categories are the hardest to make flawless.

 

[Mainer]

Dan, can I get a clarification? Are you saying you cannot respect all the time and effort they go through and money spent to make sure they can brew a beer that comes out the same every time and has extreme quality? or are you saying you cannot respect the style beer?
I may not like the beer, but it takes a lot of effort to make it. I respect the effort use and precision they can achieve.

Precision and consistency means they have a great business model; I'm not sure it means they make a great beer.
Wal Mart sells more groceries than any other company in the US. Does that mean they sell the best produce? No, it means they've invested a lot of capital into distribution infrastructure and supply chain management.

 

[Mainer]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

Interesting, I *don't* strive for repeatability. I always want to try something new. I don't use fermentation temperature controls, so if this winter is warmer than last, my rauchbier is going to have some fruity notes to it, and I'm okay with that. I *want* my 2017 Baltic Porter to be a little different from my 2016 Baltic Porter. If I'm re-brewing a saison, I might improvise the hop schedule just to see what happens. If I've got some rye lying around, it might find its way into my IPA.

I guess that gets to the heart of the disagreement. Some people approach brewing as a science, others as improvisation. To me, recipes are guidelines and consistency is boring.

 

[bajaedition]

Precision and consistency means they have a great business model; I'm not sure it means they make a great beer.
Wal Mart sells more groceries than any other company in the US. Does that mean they sell the best produce? No, it means they've invested a lot of capital into distribution infrastructure and supply chain management.

and it shows that the American public does not want the best produce etc, they want cheap crap. So walmart sells them what they want.
Now selling someone elses product is not the same as manufacturing a product that is hard to make. Selling someone elses product means you can sell what someone else produces

 

[beersk]

The only beers that bother my stomach are NEIPAs and Witbiers. I blame the suspended yeast. Sometimes totally worth it.

NEIPAs shouldn't be hazy because of yeast in suspension. It's from oats/flaked barley and massive dry hop. If it were yeast, these beers would have a yeasty bite to them, and they most certainly do not have that.

And lagers, we should specify, are as great as ales. If you created this thread to b*tch about macro lagers like Budweiser, then cool. But man are you missing out if you're ruling out the many other German lager styles, etc. out there. Don't blame the yeast.

On another note, you have to give macro breweries credit for consistency and quality control. The smaller the brewery is does not necessarily equal better quality, flavor, and consistency.

 

[Mainer]

and it shows that the American public does not want the best produce etc, they want cheap crap. So walmart sells them what they want.
Now selling someone elses product is not the same as manufacturing a product that is hard to make. Selling someone elses product means you can sell what someone else produces

Sure, sure. I'm just saying that demand is not necessarily the best measure of quality. The big breweries' success is as attributable to their mastery of mass distribution, skill at marketing, and ability to purchase ingredients at volume as to their ability to produce a consistent product.

 

[Mainer]

And lagers, we should specify, are as great as ales. If you created this thread to b*tch about macro lagers like Budweiser, then cool. But man are you missing out if you're ruling out the many other German lager styles, etc. out there. Don't blame the yeast.

Oh, I'm definitely not dumping on lagers. I *mostly* brew lagers, since the cold Maine climate gives me natural lager temps in my cellar 6-7 months of the year.
I've currently got a Dogwood pilsner, a Bamberg rauch, a Concord gape helles, a Baltic Porter, and a Maple Vienna Lager in various stages of fermentation and conditioning in my cellar.

 

[bajaedition]

Interesting, I *don't* strive for repeatability. I always want to try something new. I don't use fermentation temperature controls, so if this winter is warmer than last, my rauchbier is going to have some fruity notes to it, and I'm okay with that. I *want* my 2017 Baltic Porter to be a little different from my 2016 Baltic Porter. If I'm re-brewing a saison, I might improvise the hop schedule just to see what happens. If I've got some rye lying around, it might find its way into my IPA.

I guess that gets to the heart of the disagreement. Some people approach brewing as a science, others as improvisation. To me, recipes are guidelines and consistency is boring.

If you cannot strive for repeat ability then how do you even know if you can produce the exact product twice?
The only way you can prove you have the ability to do such is to make the EXACT product repeatedly, otherwise you are just doing whatever comes out at the end.
If you cannot repeat, then you are not good at what you do.
Ever notice how may times a musician plays a scale?
a baseball Pitcher throws a ball in practice?
an artist practices brush strokes?

And Why? So he can repeat it time after time after time, otherwise he would not be in the position he is in.

Time and practice is what it takes to be good.

I am not judging your brewing, I am just saying a fact. If you cannot repeat it, then you are not good at doing it.

EDIT: I hope you do not take this post like I am bagging on your brewing, I am simply trying to press a point about repeat-ability.

 

[bajaedition]

Sure, sure. I'm just saying that demand is not necessarily the best measure of quality. The big breweries' success is as attributable to their mastery of mass distribution, skill at marketing, and ability to purchase ingredients at volume as to their ability to produce a consistent product.

I totally agree with you

 

[Mainer]

I am not judging your brewing, I am just saying a fact. If you cannot repeat it, then you are not good at doing it.

This is decidedly an opinion, not a fact. Yeast are living organisms, and allowing them to do what they want is a choice, not a sign I'm a bad brewer. Consistency is an aesthetic decision, not an objective measure of quality.

 

[Mainer]

If you cannot strive for repeat ability then how do you even know if you can produce the exact product twice?
The only way you can prove you have the ability to do such is to make the EXACT product repeatedly, otherwise you are just doing whatever comes out at the end.
If you cannot repeat, then you are not good at what you do.
Ever notice how may times a musician plays a scale?
a baseball Pitcher throws a ball in practice?
an artist practices brush strokes?

And Why? So he can repeat it time after time after time, otherwise he would not be in the position he is in.

Time and practice is what it takes to be good.

I am not judging your brewing, I am just saying a fact. If you cannot repeat it, then you are not good at doing it.

EDIT: I hope you do not take this post like I am bagging on your brewing, I am simply trying to press a point about repeat-ability.

And I believe I get your point; if I were ever looking to sell my product, I'd need to consistently make the same beer every time. Coors can't be like, "Hey guys, wouldn't it be wild if we tried EKG in this batch this time?"
But I'm not them. That's what makes me a homebrewer. And I prefer homebrew and small-batch breweries specifically *because* I want to be surprised. I aspire to diversity, not consistency.
I'm not saying they suck. I'm just saying they bore me.

 

[bajaedition]

This is decidedly an opinion, not a fact. Yeast are living organisms, and allowing them to do what they want is a choice, not a sign I'm a bad brewer. Consistency is an aesthetic decision, not an objective measure of quality.

I have no doubt in your ability

that is not the point here, I had fear the sentence would be misinterpreted.

Yeast are predictable however, this strain will do this when in a medium of this at this ph at this temperature, that is what the Macro brewers depend on. They also are meticulous in selection of yeast off slants to keep there strains pure. In ways they do stuff we as homebrewers would never do, unless we just set up full size labs. A brewer at a macro brewery is a chemist.
They also have pilot breweries where they are allowed to make whatever they want. I have been to 2 of those in Golden Colorado. Some impressive stuff going on there.

My drive to get my product gives me my satisfaction, as said I get told I am anal all the time. Your product is more varied than mine and probably involves skills I do not have, such as being able to predict results in different styles of brewing because you have tried so much. My hat is off to that. Where I would obsess over every detail, you would shoot for the style using knowledge gained by trying different stuff. Each of us would produce a good beer, I would move on to the next very slowly as I would keep experimenting with the one before moving on.

That is the beauty of this hobby, we all raise to the level we want, And it can be argued ones obsession is his own folly

 

[Mainer]

I bet you wouldn't like a lot of my brews. Occasionally I make a beer that's a hot mess. Like when I tried to make a Berliner, but used red wheat instead of white and happened to get a cold snap so it didn't sour. I ended up with a bland, watery amber wheat beer. So I tried to salvage it with some raspberries and brett into secondary and waited to see what would happen.

But just as often, I make a beer with some delightful combination I tripped over by accident. I threw some rye and spruce tips in an IPA last year. It ended up being not at all what I expected, but really good nonetheless.

You're right, that is the beauty of this hobby. I think we have very different objectives in our brewing. It's great that homebrewing can accommodate not only a range of beer styles, but a range of brewing styles.

 

[bajaedition]

Unfortunately we are about as geographically possible, distanced from each other as can be and still be on the same Continent in the same country

 

[Mainer]

Unfortunately we are about as geographically possible, distanced from each other as can be and still be on the same Continent in the same country

Well, if you ever visit Maine, bring some homebrew. I will too. We'll share a flight.