do i need to decant a 2L yeast starter?

[Pwschlon]

I'm planning on brewing a belgian triple tomorrow. I made a 2L yeast starter with 2 packs of wyeast 3787 trappist hg at 3pm today. I'm keeping it in my basement (about 75 degrees) and shaking it regularly. It is foaming like crazy when shaken, and putting out very strong sulfer, rotten egg like smell, after only a few hours.

I want to start brewing sometime after 2pm tomorrow, making the velvet rooster extract kit from northern brewer. Is 2 liters too big a starter to pitch the whole thing? Should I try to refrigerate and decant? Not sure I'll have enough time.

 

[duboman]

You won't have enough time so just pitch the whole thing and all will be good

 

[Pwschlon]

Thanks. Also, is that sulfer smell normal with this yeast? I believe I read on here that it is.

 

[Denny]

I alwyas decant. My experience is that my beer turns out better that way. If my yeast wasn't ready to decant I'd put off brewing until it was.

 

[mburnett274]

Throw it all in there

 

[Golddiggie]

Get/make a stirplate for the next time you make a starter. Then plan up to 24 hours for the starter to complete then 24 hours to cold crash (in the fridge) so you can decant and just pitch a yeast slurry. Ever since I got a stirplate I've used that method with great results. I only want yeast going into my batch, not 2-3L of spent starter (from DME) going in.

 

[diS]

I regularly cold crash and decant starter before pitching, especially if starter if larger than 5% of batch. One advantage of this method is that yeast can build up glycogen reserves before pitching.

 

[greatschmaltez]

Thanks. Also, is that sulfer smell normal with this yeast? I believe I read on here that it is.

That's normal for that yeast, it will go away after a few weeks (you'll smell it in your primary too... Don't freak). After about 4-6 weeks or so, all will be good.

 

[Pwschlon]

Thanks for all the good info, everyone. I have another stupid question. This thing is fermenting like a beast. I have my blow off tube in a half full 5 gallon bucket. The primary is throwing off so many bubbbles that it's dirtying up the water bucket quickly.

I've already changed the water once, but do I need to keep doing this? I'm thinking no, but am not sure

 

[greatschmaltez]

Nah, your fine... Just make sure you don't get a mess on the floor or your old lady might get a little upset.

Change the water out or use and airlock once the fermentation simmers down in a couple weeks.

 

[arnoldk2]

Throw the starter in. I do it both ways. I normally decant but if I'm in a time crunch I pitch everything. Never had a bad batch because of spent starter in my beer. IMO, the only time that you should decant is when you are making a lager. Lagers are suppose to be very clean.

 

[tochsner]

Pardon the thread hijack but I have a decanting question. I regularly make small starters and pitch the whole thing. This weekend I am going to make an Oktoberfest lager that calls for a pretty big starter so I wanted to decant. So 24 hours on my stir plate then 24 hours in the fridge. My question is after pouring off the beer should I let the yeast warm all the way up to wort temperature before I pitch it?
Oh, and can I leave it in the fridge for 48 hours?

 

[osagedr]

Pardon the thread hijack but I have a decanting question. I regularly make small starters and pitch the whole thing. This weekend I am going to make an Oktoberfest lager that calls for a pretty big starter so I wanted to decant. So 24 hours on my stir plate then 24 hours in the fridge. My question is after pouring off the beer should I let the yeast warm all the way up to wort temperature before I pitch it?
Oh, and can I leave it in the fridge for 48 hours?

Depending on your yeast strain, 24 hours may not be enough to ferment out and 24 hours may not be enough time for the yeast to drop. Yes, after you decant the yeast should be warmed to within 10 degrees of the wort into which it is going to be pitched. Yes, you can leave it in the fridge for 48 hours. I would make your starter ASAP (tonight), leave it on the stirplate as long as you can, get it into the fridge about a day before you need to pitch it, pour off as much of the starter as you feel comfortable doing, then pitch the remainder once it is at the same temperature as the wort.

 

[duboman]

Pardon the thread hijack but I have a decanting question. I regularly make small starters and pitch the whole thing. This weekend I am going to make an Oktoberfest lager that calls for a pretty big starter so I wanted to decant. So 24 hours on my stir plate then 24 hours in the fridge. My question is after pouring off the beer should I let the yeast warm all the way up to wort temperature before I pitch it?
Oh, and can I leave it in the fridge for 48 hours?

Yes you can leave it in the fridge and yes you should let it warm up to pitching temperature when ready to do so.

 

[Denny]

Pardon the thread hijack but I have a decanting question. I regularly make small starters and pitch the whole thing. This weekend I am going to make an Oktoberfest lager that calls for a pretty big starter so I wanted to decant. So 24 hours on my stir plate then 24 hours in the fridge. My question is after pouring off the beer should I let the yeast warm all the way up to wort temperature before I pitch it?
Oh, and can I leave it in the fridge for 48 hours?

First of all, you should chill the lager to fermentation temp before pitching. My experience is that it makes much better beer than pitching into a 60ish lager wort. Second, cold yeast into warmer wort is a good thing! I take my yeast out of the fridge, decant, and pitch immediately. Works great! If you let it warm up, the yeast starts depleting its glycogen reserves before it gets into the beer.

 

[vinper]

Im making that same kit , was told need 3.5 liter yeast starter. good luck sounds like a good brew

 

[deuce40]

I thought that if you pitched your yeast at a different temp that it would cause the yeast to implode or explode for the different pressures of hotter or colder liquid that it's in. Kind of like a air plane slowly pressurizing and depressurization while flying, different temperatures of liquids excerpt different pressures on the skin of the yeast.

 

[Denny]

I thought that if you pitched your yeast at a different temp that it would cause the yeast to implode or explode for the different pressures of hotter or colder liquid that it's in. Kind of like a air plane slowly pressurizing and depressurization while flying, different temperatures of liquids excerpt different pressures on the skin of the yeast.

400+ batches of experience say that doesn't happen!

 

[deuce40]

400+ batches of experience say that doesn't happen!

Everything that I've read said the same thing. Even on this site but it obviously works for you. I think that's what makes brewing so great there are a hundred different ways to get to the same end product.

 

[Golddiggie]

I thought that if you pitched your yeast at a different temp that it would cause the yeast to implode or explode for the different pressures of hotter or colder liquid that it's in. Kind of like a air plane slowly pressurizing and depressurization while flying, different temperatures of liquids excerpt different pressures on the skin of the yeast.

A large temperature difference will shock the yeast and make them slow to exit the lag phase. I typically allow the entire flask to sit warming up for a couple/few hours before decanting and then making the slurry. The temperature difference between the wort and yeast slurry is minimal. Or at least well within the range it needs to be.

 

[osagedr]

Everything I've seen says to have the yeast you are pitching within 10 degrees of the wort. I don't know what's magical about "10 degrees." I also don't buy "This is the way I do it and my beer turns out great!" There's a right way and a wrong way. Do it the right way--the tough part is finding out what the "right way" is. Review as much independent scientific/published evidence as you can, then make your decision. Anecdotal "evidence" isn't worth $hit IMO.

 

[duboman]

Everything I've seen says to have the yeast you are pitching within 10 degrees of the wort. I don't know what's magical about "10 degrees." I also don't buy "This is the way I do it and my beer turns out great!" There's a right way and a wrong way. Do it the right way--the tough part is finding out what the "right way" is. Review as much independent scientific/published evidence as you can, then make your decision. Anecdotal "evidence" isn't worth $hit IMO.

In brewing beer there is never really a right or wrong way to do anything, it's what works best for each brewer and their set up/process/system

Also, perhaps you should consider that Denny is Denny Conn, board member of the AHA and contributing writer to many brewing publications. IMVHO if Denny says something works well for him, I certainly wouldn't doubt/question it

 

[theDeutscher]

You might have to give me a chance to back this up, but I believe the rule of thumb is anything more than 10% of your final wort should be decanted or you can start to taste the starter wort. I think it depends on how old your starter is, too. From personal experience, if you let your starter ferment out all the way, the unhopped, oxidated wort sours VERY fast. There's not much yeast growth going on in that starter after about 12-18 hours. If you pitch at high krausen when the wort is at it's peak of activity, the wort still usually smells pretty good and your yeast is at it's healthiest state, ready to grow continue on into your larger wort. If you have to cool and decant, I think the best option is to do the best of both worlds - take it out of the fridge and decant before you start your brew day. Make a small 2-cup starter and let the yeast re-acclimate. By the time you're finished with the brew day, you'll have the right amount of healthy yeast without the large starter.

 

[osagedr]

In brewing beer there is never really a right or wrong way to do anything, it's what works best for each brewer and their set up/process/system

No, there usually is a "right" answer. Sometimes it's dependent on a particular person's set up/process/system, but there's still a best way to do it, and usually a scientific reason why the best way is the best way.

Also, perhaps you should consider that Denny is Denny Conn, board member of the AHA and contributing writer to many brewing publications. IMVHO if Denny says something works well for him, I certainly wouldn't doubt/question it

Don't forget he has a yeast strain named after him.

I'd love him to be right--crashing, decanting and pitching is wonderfully straightforward. I just want to know that it for sure is the right way to go, and why--not just "cuz __________ says so and s/he's awesome." Besides, if he's talking about taking crashed yeast out of the fridge (at say, 37 degrees), and pitching into wort that's at 45 degrees to be fermented at 48, then it's within the "magical" 10 degree rule anyway.

 

[Denny]

A large temperature difference will shock the yeast and make them slow to exit the lag phase. I typically allow the entire flask to sit warming up for a couple/few hours before decanting and then making the slurry. The temperature difference between the wort and yeast slurry is minimal. Or at least well within the range it needs to be.

Have you tried pitching cold to verify that for yourself?

 

[Denny]

Don't forget he has a yeast strain named after him.

I'd love him to be right--crashing, decanting and pitching is wonderfully straightforward. I just want to know that it for sure is the right way to go, and why--not just "cuz __________ says so and s/he's awesome." Besides, if he's talking about taking crashed yeast out of the fridge (at say, 37 degrees), and pitching into wort that's at 45 degrees to be fermented at 48, then it's within the "magical" 10 degree rule anyway.

Look, you don't have to believe me...try it for yourself! That's ALL that matters! And I've told you why it works....it preserves the glycogen the yeast need til they get into the beer. I swear, if it didn't work why would I have been doing it all these years? I may not have the world's best palate, but I am a Natl. BJCP and I've judged at the national finals 5 times. I know the difference between good beer and not so good beer. I take the yeast out of my fridge at about 40F and pitch it directly into wort at about 60F. Try it.....

 

[Golddiggie]

Have you tried pitching cold to verify that for yourself?

I've always been able to get the wort within 10C of the slurry.

To perform a proper test you would need to use identical worts with the same yeast slurry at different temperatures. For me, more trouble than value. At least it is right now.

 

[duboman]

This excerpt taken directly from the book "Yeast" written by Jamil Z. and Chris White:

When the brewer has an appropriate pitch of healthy yeast available, and has the ability to chill the wort down to fermentation temperatures within a reasonable amount of time, the better course for beer quality is often pitching at or below fermentation temperature to then rise over the first 12-36 hours, until it reaches the desired temperature. The benefit of this process is controlled yeast growth, which often results in better overall yeast health, less leakage through cell membrane and thus a cleaner beer profile

Thus, in simple terms as my interpretation is that yes, Denny's process of pitching is beneficial as he is pitching colder and allowing both the wort and yeast to rise to the desired fermentation temperature. The book then goes on in it's chapter discussing the pros and cons of under pitching, over pitching, and not maintaining proper temperatures which is another conversation for another day.

BTW, if you do not have this book I would highly recommend it as it is definitely the most inclusive book of yeast management in brewing I have ever read

 

[Denny]

Once again, all I ask is that you try it. I don't get any royalties, it doesn't matter to me if you do or don't. I simply offer a useful technique that has helped me make better beer with less hassle.

 

[theDeutscher]

I thought the argument was whether or not to let the yeast warm up to the pitching temperature of the wort, not whether to let the beer rise up to fermentation temperature? I also pitch a few degrees colder than my fermentation temperature, but I don't throw a cold starter into a room temperature wort. As far as that goes, I think it's more precautionary than anything. We're really getting into a thin territory as far as beer quality now. I'm sure there's a difference in biology between pitching a colder yeast as opposed to one that is closer to the wort temperature, but I think we're being pretty picky. I've done Denny's method with lagers and Jamil's method of pitching active yeast in ales. Both turned out great.

 

[duboman]

To Denny: I was just backing up what you stated as the "Science" of your method was being questioned

To theDeutcher: This thread has taken a few crazy turns for sure and I agree things are getting a little picky, as I stated earlier, my opinion is that there really is no eight or wrong,in this hobby, it's completely up to the individual brewer and what works best for their system/setup/process, but hence, even that was questioned as well..............sigh.....

 

[emjay]

I do the same thing as Denny, and for the same reason... warming up the yeast only makes it use up its glycogen reserves.

 

[Denny]

Thanks, duboman...I realize that and my reply wasn't directed to you. emjay, glad to hear it works for you, too. I'm surprised by the resistance to even trying it.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It'd just add that some yeast strains are more flocculant than others and decanting them after only a day in the refrigerator will toss out the more flocculent cells that give you the best attenuation.

A yeast like WLP007 is very flocculant and most of the cells will clump up on the bottom of the flask after a day but a yeast like Wyeast 1007 is less flocculent and may need 3-4 days to settle out.

 

[Golddiggie]

It'd just add that some yeast strains are more flocculant than others and decanting them after only a day in the refrigerator will toss out the more flocculent cells that give you the best attenuation.

A yeast like WLP007 is very flocculant and most of the cells will clump up on the bottom of the flask after a day but a yeast like Wyeast 1007 is less flocculent and may need 3-4 days to settle out.

Don't you mean you'll toss out the less flocculant cellls? The more flocculant cells will be at the bottom of the flask much sooner than the less flocculant cells.

I'm using strains rated at least high in flocculation, so it's really no issue for me. I often do leave an extra day at the end of the starter schedule in order to factor in settling variables. Normally I don't need that extra time though.