Distilled water!

[McKBrew]

After some further discussion in this thread, I'm going to step back a bit. If you have issues with extract beer and have been using distilled water, you might want to look into that. If you have been using distilled with no issues, then continue on.

Points (That I think we can all agree on).

1) Distilled water is water with basically all minerals stripped from it. Many of these minerals are essential for water "taste" and benefit certain styles of beer.

2) Malt Extracts are made by companies using local water which has these minerals, so distilled water might not be a factor in full extract beers. However, there is no way to determine what minerals and what quantities are present in the extract. If you are using large amounts of steeping grains in extract beers, it might be advisable to use non-distilled water for the steeping portion, or add minerals to your distilled water.

3) Most All Grain and Partial mash beers should not use non-altered distilled water.

4) Those minerals are necessary for yeast growth, as well as overall flavor contribution to the beer.



Lately there are quite a few threads from bad beer, to funny tasting beer, etc... While not necessarily the issue, it seems like many beginning brewers are using distilled water for brewing.

What is distilled water? It's water that has had most if not all of it's impurities removed. So bad stuff is gone, but also anything that gives water it's unique taste like dissolved minerals.

Distilled water is drinkable, but if you have ever tried plain distilled water, it isn't all that great (opinion). Most bottled waters, filtered waters, etc... still have some other stuff in them to make it taste good. Additionally some of those dissolved solids are actually contributors to beer flavors. Do a search on this forum and you'll find more reading on distilled water.

Again, not saying it may be the cause of your problems, but it's not helping your beer.

So what water is good for brewing?

Basically any water that you would drink without altering is a good place to start. If your tap water tastes good, brew with it. If you have a favorite brand of bottled water, or get it delivered.... use it.

There is nothing wrong with getting deeper into brewing science and playing around with additions to water to copy a specific water profile for a brew, but if you are starting out, don't sweat it. You don't have to have some special water, your tap water isn't going to infect your beer, etc...

So: Stop using distilled water!

 

[danculwell]

Sorta on topic question. My tap water sucks so I've been using bottled spring water. It's $.99/gal, not bad. Then I noticed the other day that they sell reverse osmosis drinking water in refillable jugs for $.25/gal, much better. Unfortunately it's my understanding that RO water is missing those same dissolved minerals that distilled water doesn't have. Is that correct? Has anyone else had any experience with brewing with RO water?

 

[PT Ray]

I've only been seeing distilled water mentioned when brewing with extract. Logic being when the wort is concentrated down to an extract the minerals are also concentrated with it. So all your minerals are already in the extract.

 

[northernlad]

The problem with tap water McK is not everybody has our water. The rest of the country can make fun of how much they think it rains here, but they can't have our water.

 

[erock2112]

What I've heard is that distilled water is a good idea if you're using extracts, since all of the minerals in the water used in making the extract still exist within the extract, so adding water with more minerals results in much harder water.

 

[peripatetic]

+1 on it being OK to use distilled if you are using extract.

 

[Doc Robinson]

Has anyone else had any experience with brewing with RO water?

RO water is created using a different process but nets the same result as distilled water (essentially). Distilled water has 0 ppm of dissolved solids where a good RO water might have 5 ppm (which is essentially nothing).

I understand where McKBrew's heart is in this post, but I must object. His theory regarding "if it tastes good, brew with it" is reasonably sound for extract brewing.

All grain brewing is an entirely different story. Knowing what I know now about water chemistry, adjustments are ESSENTIAL where style dictates. What "tastes good" may work for a stout but may still be terrible for a wit, and vice versa. In my opinion, if you are going all grain, spend the time to learn about water chemistry (residual alkalinity & chloride to sulfate ratios) to target your style. If you don't, you may get lucky on a porter, but you may find your hefe undrinkable. I learned the hard way. Get your water report, know what you are working with, listen to the Brew Strong podcasts on water (4 parts that are 1 hour each) and read Palmer's section on water.

Everyone wants to brew GREAT beer, not just drinkable beer. With all the time and effort invested in an all grain brew, if your beer isn't great, you WILL be disappointed, no matter if your beer is "drinkable". Invest your time up front to get your water right the first time, and every time. If not, stick to extract or settle for uncertain results.

Again, I know that McKBrew's post was directed at beginners, but before you know it, you won't be.

His point remains valid in that no matter what you are brewing (all grain or extract), stop brewing with RO or Distilled Water only.

 

[Erythro73]

(Distilled water may still be useful for Star-San usage)

 

[Doc Robinson]

What I've heard is that distilled water is a good idea if you're using extracts, since all of the minerals in the water used in making the extract still exist within the extract, so adding water with more minerals results in much harder water.

This point is valid. However, when that extract was produced, it had generic intentions. Hop to malt balance is highly affected by your minerals (specifically the ratio of chloride to sulfate). However, the counterpoint is that it is impossible to know what minerals exist in the extract, so mineral additions to distilled or RO water is more or less guesswork.

RO or DI works with extract, but what you are trying to brew might not be exactly what you are trying to get...this is exactly why AG brewing gives you so much more flexibility. However, if you are new to brewing, as long as you get beer, you'll probably be happy.

 

[iron_city_ap]

To begin with, I'm an extract/distilled H2O guy. I would use my tap water if I was doing a full boil, but I decided to go with distilled to lower the risk of bacteria. BUT, one of the things I do is add a Tsp. of Gypsum to help put some minerals back into the water.

Just my .02

 

[Doc Robinson]

To begin with, I'm an extract/distilled H2O guy. I would use my tap water if I was doing a full boil, but I decided to go with distilled to lower the risk of bacteria. BUT, one of the things I do is add a Tsp. of Gypsum to help put some minerals back into the water.

Just my .02

But the question is, why do you do that?

 

[WIP]

Filtered water is right next to distilled water at the grocery store and tastes way better than distilled. I only buy water if it is $.99 for 2 gallons and I forgot to filter enough with my britta.

 

[Doc Robinson]

Filtered water is right next to distilled water at the grocery store and tastes way better than distilled. I only buy water if it is $.99 for 2 gallons and I forgot to filter enough with my britta.

A Brita filter does not remove minerals...it only removes "off flavor" type components like chlorine. Drinking water/spring water/filtered water at the grocery store could have a TON of minerals in it...in fact, minerals are added to these waters to adjust taste. They are by no means a blank slate, and if added to an extract brew, may in fact push mineral levels to excess for certain components.

 

[McKBrew]

Just to clarify, use distilled water if you are adding something to it (then it's not really distilled anymore.).

As for extract, I would agree with some of the other posters. You don't know what is or is not in your extract. If it's working fine for you continue.

 

[qvantamon]

Thing is, a lot of people doing extract also steep some grains. How does using distilled water affect the steeping part?

 

[iron_city_ap]

But the question is, why do you do that?

You have me confused here a bit. On one hand you are saying the minerals in tap water are good, but then it seems like you are implying there is a problem with me trying to put minerals back into distilled water that has lost minerals in the distilling process. Are you saying that it could be mineral overkill? Could be. I'm just trying to avoid having problems with bacteria. I don't have the setup to boil 5 gallons, otherwise I happilly would. I'm sure I'd be fine with just using straight tap water though.

I'm from out in the sticks, but currently live in town. I would LOVE to go to a spring that is right by my dad's house and use some of that stuff. Sadly, its a 7 hour drive away. And cold as hell.

 

[WIP]

A Brita filter does not remove minerals...it only removes "off flavor" type components like chlorine. Drinking water/spring water/filtered water at the grocery store could have a TON of minerals in it...in fact, minerals are added to these waters to adjust taste. They are by no means a blank slate, and if added to an extract brew, may in fact push mineral levels to excess for certain components.

I am using it to remove the chlorine flavor of my local water. It is slight, but I am a picky water drinker. Hell, my dogs drink britta water.

 

[iron_city_ap]

Doc Robinson, Just read your post earlier in the thread. Now I understand. Hopefully one of these days I'll get to that level of brewing quality. Gotta work my way up.

 

[Doc Robinson]

Doc Robinson, Just read your post earlier in the thread. Now I understand. Hopefully one of these days I'll get to that level of brewing quality. Gotta work my way up.

Brew on brother!

Water chemistry can seem like a difficult subject on its face, but a few hours of reading and/or listening to podcasts, you'll have a very good understanding of how it works and the tools you can use to make it work for your particular style.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I hate to disagree... but this is entirely wrong.

This is posted int he beginners brewing area where 98% of the brewers brew with extract. The above poster who noted that the extract carries mineral form the original brewing water is correct.

While it may be fine to brew with tap or another water, it is often best to use a filtered or distilled water. You have no idea what the water chemistry was at the malt house. You can conjecture that it is a balanced water profile that is made ideal for mashing, that is about it.

If you want to enhance the water fine. Add some brewing salts for a hoppy beer, or whatever you want. But with distilled at least you will no 100% that the water chemistry is just fine for brewing. Using some other water? Not so much. It may be fine, and 98% of the time it will. But RO/distilled will never be bad for an extract beer.

AG is a different story, but we have several forums to discuss that in. For beginners, if you are using distilled and are happy, keep doing it.

 

[CFuggles]

I use distilled for my AG Kolsch, comes out great. Cologne has some really soft water

 

[springer]

I hate to disagree... but this is entirely wrong.

This is posted int he beginners brewing area where 98% of the brewers brew with extract. The above poster who noted that the extract carries mineral form the original brewing water is correct.

While it may be fine to brew with tap or another water, it is often best to use a filtered or distilled water. You have no idea what the water chemistry was at the malt house. You can conjecture that it is a balanced water profile that is made ideal for mashing, that is about it.

If you want to enhance the water fine. Add some brewing salts for a hoppy beer, or whatever you want. But with distilled at least you will no 100% that the water chemistry is just fine for brewing. Using some other water? Not so much. It may be fine, and 98% of the time it will. But RO/distilled will never be bad for an extract beer.

AG is a different story, but we have several forums to discuss that in. For beginners, if you are using distilled and are happy, keep doing it.

couldn't have said it better..

 

[McKBrew]

For now I'm going to stand by my OP, if anyone has any empirical evidence to dispute this, I will delete the thread.

I've read through a few topics here, and on some other sites. There is no clear cut consensus or data. One of the links I provided (Brewing Network) makes a good point that when steeping grains, you shouldn't used distilled water. Since most extract brewers do use some steeping grains, this might be taken into consideration.

Additionally some well known brewers even advocate against using it.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11897&start=0

Again I will step back and say, if it's working for you don't mess with it. I've just seen too many threads lately with beer issues and distilled water was a common factor.

If for some reason I get enough feedback that this is straight out bad advice, I'll delete the thread or see if it can be retitled to better reflect at least a discussion on distilled water.

 

[Synovia]

A Brita filter does not remove minerals...it only removes "off flavor" type components like chlorine.

Sure it does. A britta filter is a combination of active charcoal and ion exchange resins. It does the same thing a deionizing filter does, just not nearly as well. It'll remove whatever is most charged in solution.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

See item #9:
http://byo.com/component/resource/article/10-10-steps-to-better-extract-brewing

I believe this is brought up in several texts as well. Though I am having trouble remembering off the top of my head... I apologize. I am relistengin to some podcasts with Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis right now. If he says anything useful I will post up.

 

[olllllo]

Discussion is good even if there is occasionally some incomplete or wrong information.

Leaving the discussion up will many times eventually lead to better information.

I don't believe in deleting threads for that reason.

 

[Doc Robinson]

Sure it does. A britta filter is a combination of active charcoal and ion exchange resins. It does the same thing a deionizing filter does, just not nearly as well. It'll remove whatever is most charged in solution.

No. A Brita reduces copper, chlorine (taste and odor), mercury, cadmium, and zinc. It does not reduce calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulfates, etc to any rough measurable level. Brita makes water taste better...that is all.

 

[Synovia]

No. A Brita reduces copper, chlorine (taste and odor), mercury, cadmium, and zinc. It does not reduce calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulfates, etc to any rough measurable level. Brita makes water taste better...that is all.

Brita filters are carbon and BOTH cation and anion exchange resins.

The resins fill up quickly, so they're essentially just carbon filters, but they most certainly will remove some calcium, etc. Brita just doesn't market them that way, because they're not seen as drinking water contaminants.

 

[boredatwork]

Anyway.

Regarding distilled water and extract. While, using distilled water would be fine to use with extract, I wouldn't say its ideal.

While you might say that extract contains some levels of minerals in it already, that doesn't really cover the intent of adjusting your water to certain levels. For example I could use a light extract for a stout and also for an IPA. Those are two very different beers - and flavor wise would ideally have different mineral contents. But if both use the same extract, then they will both have the same mineral content.

You might get good results with using distilled for both, but having some consideration for additions based on the intended flavor of the beer you are brewing is something that would be done in addition to using distilled water.

 

[iron_city_ap]

So, I've been trying to read up and learn a little more about all this. One of the things I noticed is that through all this discussion, its all still pretty vague. Water quality changes from place to place so that really has an effect on what you need to do.

As a basic rule of thumb, would it be safe to say that for a lighter, more hoppy/bitter beer, you should try to remove hardness (assuming you have hard water)from the water, and for a darker, more malty one you need it? What your individual water contains and its Ph would determine what you need to do to it for the particular type you are brewing. A dark beer with a higher Ph water would be fine as is because of the acidity of dark malts, but a light beer with the same water would have to be adjusted..... sound about right? In the end are you trying to balance the beer to a fairly middle of the road Ph?

From what I'm finding, you can't really do much about your sulfate hardness, other than dillute it down with distilled, but you can control the carbonate hardness.

Not trying to get too overwhelmed and deep into it. Just trying to figure out some basics. A small step on the way...

 

[Oscbert]

From my understanding harder water will create a more bitter beer. Here is a link that explains a bit about water. http://www.bjcp.org/study.php#water

 

[iron_city_ap]

Thanks. Good link. It confused me, so I went back and re-read and see how and why I misread what I did. I think I'm trying to cram so much info on so many different subjects into my head I'm hitting overload. The part I was reading, was about the dark malt beers of London, Munich and Dublin having the acidity to balance out the beer because of its hardness.

So, its: 'harder water is typically better for bitter beers'.... got it. BUT, it looks like with the right recipe (i.e. Guiness) you can counter the negative effects your water would normally have on your beer........

Its like there are an infinate number of ways to achieve the desired results.

I guess I shouldn't try to overthink it too hard. Keep it simple (for now) and go from there.

 

[Oscbert]

The science of brewing is overwhelming at first. I am still a beginner (only four brews). Everytime I learn a bit more and stuff starts to make more sense. I figure by the end of the year I will try and start messing with the minerals and PH of my water. Brewing is pretty easy, but people get turned off because there is so much info thrown at you when you first get into it.

 

[McKBrew]

Brewing is pretty easy, but people get turned off because there is so much info thrown at you when you first get into it.

And that is a big problem too. Just because you read about some guy messing with mash PH or counting yeast cells doesn't mean you need to. Perfectly good beer is made by people who just follow a basic recipe.

I totally understand the desire by some to get deep into brewing science and I respect that, but it's not a necessity.

 

[boredatwork]

And that is a big problem too. Just because you read about some guy messing with mash PH or counting yeast cells doesn't mean you need to. Perfectly good beer is made by people who just follow a basic recipe.

I totally understand the desire by some to get deep into brewing science and I respect that, but it's not a necessity.

But when it comes to water "science" I would bet more people start looking into it because of problems rather then because its fun. I understand the mentality that the distilled water discussion can be overly complicated - but that's not true for everyone. Some people have bad water and need to do some kind of water modification it in order to be able to make decent beer.

So I don't think about it as an extra step for advanced brewers. I think it is something that should be put more into the forefront so that people avoid wasting their time making awful beer because their water is not good. Especially because so many people tell them water modification is not important, etc. (I am speaking from experience on that - it can be very frustrating.)

In my opinion if everyone started from distilled water, then the water profile could become a standard part of a recipe since everyone would have the same starting point. Now its impossible to know how a recipe will turn out from one person to the next because of the variable of water.

 

[BuddhaK]

I used distilled water for a Holiday brew this year. While the top end flavor of the beer is mostly right on, the flavors don't seem to blend, and the finish is rather lack luster, described as "watery". The head dissipates too soon. 6.6 pounds of liquid extract make up a good portion of the malt.
Last year's Holiday brew (same recipe) was made with tap water. The flavor was much more rich, the hop flavor stayed, and there was no watery finish. The head stayed as one would expect.
I understand that I can still use distilled water with success, perhaps producing more unique flavors, but I would need to educate myself on the use of mineral (and perhaps other) additives first.

 

[youngdh]

I used distilled water for a Holiday brew this year. While the top end flavor of the beer is mostly right on, the flavors don't seem to blend, and the finish is rather lack luster, described as "watery". The head dissipates too soon. 6.6 pounds of liquid extract make up a good portion of the malt.
Last year's Holiday brew (same recipe) was made with tap water. The flavor was much more rich, the hop flavor stayed, and there was no watery finish. The head stayed as one would expect.
I understand that I can still use distilled water with success, perhaps producing more unique flavors, but I would need to educate myself on the use of mineral (and perhaps other) additives first.

If you used straight DI water without appropriate mineral additions for your beer style (and grist bill if doing all grain) you will have not so great results. You'll also have a lack luster fermentation as yeast need Ca++ ions to be successful.

 

[BuddhaK]

Thanks.
I'm brewing an extract and grain stout this event. I bought 5 gallons of Arrowhead spring water. I'll see how that works out.

 

[Yooper]

If you used straight DI water without appropriate mineral additions for your beer style (and grist bill if doing all grain) you will have not so great results. You'll also have a lack luster fermentation as yeast need Ca++ ions to be successful.

That's not true. First, extract has already been mashed and processed, so there is not reason for mineral additions. Malt has enouch calcium to make a successful fermentation as well. However, calcium chloride which brings the calcium to 40 ppm or more does enhance yeast flocculation and so beer clarity is enhanced. It's not about a 'lackluster' fermentation, though. Most German lagers have soft water, with no added calcium at all, and turn out beautiful.

Distilled water or RO water is a perfect beginning for brewing, all-grain or extract.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[BuddhaK]

It must be subjective. I can't explain any other way why this batch came out the way it did. All things equal, it makes sense to me that if natural additives are removed through distillation, they need to be added back to get back to the original (or close to it) state.