dissapointed in cane sugar for candi sugar

[fredthecat]

i've done homemade candi sugar many times in the past for various beers, usually just light candi sugar and it always worked out well. however it's a lot of time and effort. after reading many accounts here of people saying "clear candi is the same as table sugar" i gave it a try.

used 8% (450g) cane sugar at 20 minutes left for a strong belgian.

taste feels off-harsh, unmelded after two months in the bottle. everything else was by the book/standard. it's twin brew used the same yeast and same process and tastes great.

i'm assuming its the cane sugar, but definitely won't risk another sub-par brew by chancing it. switching back to making candi sugar.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Don't Belgians use beet sugar? So clear candi would be plain beet sugar instead of cane?

 

[fredthecat]

you are partially right, mostly wrong. i've read that beet sugar has special flavour aspects even through inversion, however. but my point is that i've inverted cane sugar in the past and it has turned out great and familiar to what i'd expect. this didn't. they're chemically identical, the only difference is in trace minerals and stuff attached to it

nothing to do with beet sugar.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

you are partially right, mostly wrong. i've read that beet sugar has special flavour aspects even through inversion, however. but my point is that i've inverted cane sugar in the past and it has turned out great and familiar to what i'd expect. this didn't. they're chemically identical, the only difference is in trace minerals and stuff attached to it

nothing to do with beet sugar.

even light Belgian Candi is an invert sugar. So contrary to some misinformation - candi of any color is not the same as cane sugar regardless of the source. All sugar be it beet or cane is sucrose. Candi is the result of splitting sucrose into glucose and fructose. Candi or cane sugar, it's like comparing apples to oranges, their both fruits, but...

 

[Schecter]

I believe people say the outcome should be the same because the acidity of the wort should invert the table sugar giving essentially what you would have if you made candi. Maybe your ph was off possibly skewing your results? Either case I make my own candi, its another process I enjoy. Especially smacking the **** out of it when it cools!

Sorry to hear of your trial. Best of luck next time.
Cheers.

 

[rmyurick]

How strong? Are you sure 2 months is enough time?

Would probably be a good experiment to do a side-by-side with otherwise identical recipes & process.

 

[fredthecat]

How strong? Are you sure 2 months is enough time?

youre right, it's 8% alcohol. i figured 2 months in the bottle would be okay but its still suprisingly harsh imho. ill check again in a bit.

even light Belgian Candi is an invert sugar. So contrary to some misinformation - candi of any color is not the same as cane sugar regardless of the source. All sugar be it beet or cane is sucrose. Candi is the result of splitting sucrose into glucose and fructose. Candi or cane sugar, it's like comparing apples to oranges, their both fruits, but...

huh? so? not sure what you even want to say. if i could go beyond my report in the original post, this is the kind of thing i'd like to argue against.
in my brewing experience, people's theories mean nothing compared to measurable results based on an actual brew. lots of people kept mentioning "inversion in the boil" and other stuff.
i have a good palate and good process-cane sugar was not something i'd recommend or use again. qualifiable result.

 

[orangehero]

Are you saying you've made this exact same recipe the exact same way with your inverted syrup several times and now that you changed the sugar and used cane sugar (not pure cane sugar) you detect an inferior harsh quality?

Just to add yeast have no trouble metabolizing sucrose and although perhaps possible I haven't read of that being a source of fermentation issues. Beyond that if your palate is very sensitive presumably there should be subtle differences in flavor between invert syrup, cane sugar, and even pure cane sugar.

 

[andrewmaixner]

To truly test, you would have to split a batch post-boil, and at that point add invert syrup to half, add an equal (by mass of sugar) amount of dissolved non-invert sucrose to the other, and ferment them at the same temp/yeast/etc. It would be interesting to see if they were distinguishable.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

this is the kind of thing i'd like to argue against.
in my brewing experience, people's theories mean nothing compared to measurable results based on an actual brew.

You stated that you were told light candi was the same as cane sugar.
It's not, no theory.

Cane sugar will ferment but not easily, to break down sucrose the yeast use an enzyme called invertase, which breaks them down outside the yeast cell. By using an invert sugar you save the yeast unnecessary work and you fermentation time.

Again, no theory
Theory???

Time to go back to Yeast Basics 101. By all means brew a split batch, but enzymes and chemical reactions are givens. So is the fact that yeast has to break down sucrose before it can even start to use it. You yourself stated when you used candi you didn't have the same problem. Too much straight sucrose will tend to impart unwanted flavors as you also mentioned.

I guess next time I will just forget my chemistry training and knowledge of the mechanics of yeast fermentation.

 

[orangehero]

Cane sugar will ferment but not easily

Got a source? Certainly it is not as easily handled as glucose, but you mean they have a hard time with sucrose?

All I've read indicates that sucrose is rapidly hydrolyzed and that yeast have absolutely no problems with it even when it's a fairly large proportion of the fermentables. Pure beet sugar after all is a very common adjunct in Belgian styles. The need for candi syrup in my opinion is just marketing intended for homebrewers here in the states.

http://beer.suregork.com/sugar_utilization_by_yeast_during_fermentation.pdf

Some blog stuff, as far as that goes:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/12/canditablecorn-sugar-belgian-beer.html
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/03/pale-belgian-sugar-experiment-tasting.html

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Got a source? Certainly it is not as easily handled as glucose, but you mean they have a hard time with sucrose?

All I've read indicates that sucrose is rapidly hydrolyzed and that yeast have absolutely no problems with it even when it's a fairly large proportion of the fermentables........

Yeast cannot internally process sucrose as the link you posted confirms. It must be converted first. Candi was originally used because when it's inverted it develops a different taste due to the inversion process which usually involves a mild acidic agent or even Creme of Tarter. It ends up more tart than sweet.

But this thread has gotten off track. It was originally about a comment of being disappointed by how his beer tasted when cane sugar was used instead of candi. You can test and test all you want, cane sugar can be used to make candi or for priming, but it is not ideal for brewing by itself. It will work, it can cause off flavors if used in excess. In my opinion there is more downside to using cane than saving a few cents. But, it's not my beer so frankly do whatever you want.

 

[fredthecat]

i see where you got confused; by my saying that it is "the same". i mean 'for all practical intents and purposes related to brewing cane sugar is not noticeably different from clear candi sugar'. this is something often claimed in recent homebrew circles. my thread is saying that in my opinion i dont think so.

that aside i can assure you that yeast will eat the hell out of the cane sugar, did a 151F mash and got 91% attenuation.

 

[rmyurick]

I appreciate the info & your taking time to post. I've used cane sugar a several times-in a Belgian dark strong (which also had 1# of d-180), in an esb, and in an ipa. All came out great, buti think it was only about 1/2 lb. total in a 5 g. Batch.

 

[BrewHound]

I appreciate the info & your taking time to post. I've used cane sugar a several times-in a Belgian dark strong (which also had 1# of d-180), in an esb, and in an ipa. All came out great, buti think it was only about 1/2 lb. total in a 5 g. Batch.

Same here. I'm no chemist but I've added cane sugar to several Belgian styles with great results. Zainasheff has recipes that include cane sugar to increase gravity without affecting color or flavor (about 20% of the fermentables in his Belgian Tripel in BCS is cane sugar). The impurities in dark sugars and syrups contribute flavors as the dark impurities are left behind after fermentation. Sucrose and glucose are both 100% fermentable.
And that Tripel is wonderful btw!

 

[jbob7171]

The belgian candi sugar my LHBS sells has a disclaimer that it is NOT inverted sugar... see direct quote from their website below:

"This is Belgian Candi rock sugar that is commonly used in pale Belgian ales that need a boost in gravity or extra drinkability. NOT inverted sugar, as many think."

I'm assuming this is the case for most homebrew shops(??), which suggests to me that the idea of using table sugar in it's place is mostly true, because they should be the same. I will also add that my lhbs also sells candi syrup made from beet sugar that has been inverted.

So if you made your own candi sugar, then I can see how the beers turned out different.

I'm certainly no expert in this, just adding some info that I stumbled upon recently. If I'm way off, please let me know.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

If you add table sugar to the boil, even a couple minutes before the end of the boil, they should largely invert by time you finish cooling the wort. Acidity of the wort, and heat, combine to invert the sugar pretty quickly.

If you inverted the sugar yourself, little bit of acid with some water to dissolve the sugar, and then add heat, thats clear candi syrup. Table sugar + water + heat + acidity = invert sugar given some time (relatively short time)

If the OP was experiencing harshness in a BDSA at only two months I would give it 6 months before making a final judgement. I personally would not put table sugar directly into a fermenter, even though I know that nothing really wants to live on the surface of sugar, I invert any sugar additions (unless its honey, honey goes directly into the fermenter) and just deal with the added liquid.