Discussion on malty German beers

[Bilsch]

I've taken the liberty of highlighting the parts that confirm my statement that pumping CO2 into the headspace with the same purity grade CO2 will result in much lower O2 levels than what you'd get if you were to carbonate through injection with the same grade CO2. In this case you'll end up at 14 ppb instead of 143 or about 1/10th. If you still don't understand the difference then I'm sorry but you're the one who obviously doesn't understand the underlying physical principles. The huge difference is due to the fact that O2's solubility is approximately 3.7% that of CO2, so a lot more O2 has to stay in the headspace for very little O2 to actually get into the beer. Yes, there is some O2 enrichment of the headspace if you don't vent it so that the O2 concentration in the headspace will increase and Hach estimates this will lead to a doubling of the concentration of dissolved oxygen, but still we're talking 14 ppb against ten times that! If that isn't a huge difference than I don't know what is.

I applaud your tenacity and effort toward proving your point but in this case you've missed one little detail which is a fatal flaw in your argument.

Yes are correct the solubility of O2 in the liquid is relatively low and of course if this were water in the keg, O2 in solution would remain constant but this is beer and beer is full of antioxidants like the lovely malty polyphenolic substances and the delicate hop flavors as well as melanoids and other maillard products which will darken with oxygen exposure. These are the things we are trying so hard to protect from oxidation in the first place. Since this system is dynamic and not static, like if the keg were full of water, as the antioxidants do their thing the O2 partial pressure in solution will fall which makes way for more oxygen to go in solution and so on and so forth until all the O2 is gone along with your beer flavor. This is why breweries refer to the amount of oxygen in a bottle or keg as TPO (total package oxygen). They know that fairly quickly all the oxygen, even in the headspace, will end up in the beer and do its damage.

Ah but you say this won't happen for weeks so I'm cool as long as I can drink my beer before this all happens. Well not really since all the oxygen in the headspace will actually end up in the beer in a matter of hours or a few days at the most because of certain enzymes and lipids in the beer that more weakly, but quickly bind with oxygen are essentially acting like short term storage for the oxygen then giving it up over time to other antioxidants.

This is why, in terms of oxidative damage to your beer, injection carbonation is no different than headspace pressurization carbonation. In a closed system i.e. a sealed keg, TPO is TPO.

Much like you Mr Vale, I also have grown a little tired of this testy back and forth and would much prefer to have a more polite exchange of ideas. I think we were on the right track with this thread until some got the idea it would be fun to kick the door open and sling some mud at or in the general direction of the Lodo brewers, showing disrespect and calling us crazy or a cult. Sure we could all just quit talking on this subject but in my opinion there has been some good signal hidden in the noise, from which hopefully we can all learn something.

 

[doug293cz]

...

Ah but you say this won't happen for weeks so I'm cool as long as I can drink my beer before this all happens. Well not really since all the oxygen in the headspace will actually end up in the beer in a matter of hours or a few days at the most because of certain enzymes and lipids in the beer that more weakly, but quickly bind with oxygen are essentially acting like short term storage for the oxygen then giving it up over time to other antioxidants.

...

Assuming this is true, it severely complicates the analysis of sparged carbonation. With tiny bubbles of O2 "laden" CO2 rising thru the beer, it seems a lot of the O2 would be bound by these fast acting, but weak, antioxidants. Thus much of the O2 in the incoming CO2 would never make it to the headspace to get vented via the controlled leak. The net effect would be much higher O2 pickup than the analysis in the Hach paper calculated. Thoughts?

Brew on

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I learned the hard way how oxygen can quickly ravage a bottled beer. I had an NEIPA that was around SRM 6-7 and straw colored when bottled soon transition to around SRM 9-10 and brownish, and the flavor went from decent to nigh on terrible at the same time.

 

[MSK_Chess]

When I force carb I notice not a change in taste but an aroma that is unnatural. I cannot really describe it. I noticed this because when my lagers are close to end of fermentation they are lovely and fresh. When I force carb them they are great for a few days and then I get this kind of unnatural aroma appearing. The interesting thing is that it does not appear when I bottle condition. You know the process we go though and we try to eliminate what it might be and I have come to the conclusion that it must be some agent in the Co2 itself. What it is I cannot say.

On a more positive note I have been using Imperial yeast "Harvest" lager yeast and it is simply superb. Very clean, low sulphur and low diacetyl and for a lager yeast it flocculates like a British ale yeast leaving the beer clean and bright. Love it. Cannot say what strain it was but man its awesome.

 

[ba-brewer]

I see the use of "fresh grain" flavor used in places in this thread. Does than mean a raw cereal like flavor you get from crunch on malt from the grain bag flavor?

If that is the fresh grain flavor people are looking for maybe try some the GW superior pilsner or Rahr malts. Those all seem to a lingering raw grain like flavor to me.

 

[Miraculix]

On a more positive note I have been using Imperial yeast "Harvest" lager yeast and it is simply superb. Very clean, low sulphur and low diacetyl and for a lager yeast it flocculates like a British ale yeast leaving the beer clean and bright. Love it. Cannot say what strain it was but man its awesome.

I think I remember reading that it is supposed to be the Augustiner strain and that it also works quite well warm

Great to know that it floccs so well, will give it a try in the future.

 

[Bilsch]

"Most brewers specify a minimum CO2 purity of 99.990%. This equates to an oxygen impurity of about 0.002%. If one V/V of CO2 with this oxygen content were injected into beer, the resulting increase to the beer O2 would be about 28 ppb."

Sorry all you LOWDO guys feel threatened, but you don't get to make blanket statements without someone taking offense. As for cherry picking data, have you read the "Bavarian Helles" manifesto?! Brewing science has advanced beyond Narziss and 50 year old data. I won't even bother with the antioxidant bit.

Yes of course breweries spec high purity CO2, or capture their own, because they know very well the staling damage that is caused by lower grades.

We however are home brewers and the vast majority of us are not able to get, much less afford instrument/research grade 99.99% carbon dioxide. Do you not think that making a statement essentially like, "some brewers use 99.99% CO2 and get low TPO numbers therefore when I force carbonate the same must be true" is sort of cherry picking your data?

Yes I will agree that brewing science has probably advanced some past Narziss but then most people I know much prefer Kunze. I own the 5th revised edition 2014 and this arguably the most up to date book on brewing science there is. But maybe you know better then universities like TUM on what would be more modern information.

 

[wobdee]

If you can procure your Co2 from someone on this list you will get 99.999% pure. I paid $21 for my last 5lb bottle.

http://igsa.evansit.us/member-profiles?q=member-profiles

 

[Bilsch]

Assuming this is true, it severely complicates the analysis of sparged carbonation. With tiny bubbles of O2 "laden" CO2 rising thru the beer, it seems a lot of the O2 would be bound by these fast acting, but weak, antioxidants. Thus much of the O2 in the incoming CO2 would never make it to the headspace to get vented via the controlled leak. The net effect would be much higher O2 pickup than the analysis in the Hach paper calculated. Thoughts?

Chemical reactions are greatly influenced by pressure and temperature and this controls the when. I surmise that it should be hours or days, not the mere seconds a bubble takes to rise through the column of beer. But if you were to raise the temperature of your beer to above say 65c, then I would bet these oxidative reactions could happen before that bubble breaks the surface.

 

[Bilsch]

If you can procure your Co2 from someone on this list you will get 99.999% pure. I paid $21 for my last 5lb bottle.
http://igsa.evansit.us/member-profiles?q=member-profiles

Cool. I've got a Rocky Mountain air in my town. What grade did you ask for?

 

[bierhaus15]

Yes of course breweries spec high purity CO2, or capture their own, because they know very well the staling damage that is caused by lower grades.

Called my Pentair rep. Most bulk beverage grade C02 is actually 99.97-99.99%, as it is largely coming from ethanol biofuel production and is purer than C02 from ammonia production, which was the norm yrs ago. Beverage minimum by law is 99.95%.

Yes I will agree that brewing science has probably advanced some past Narziss but then most people I know much prefer Kunze. I own the 5th revised edition 2014 and this arguably the most up to date book on brewing science there is. But maybe you know better then universities like TUM on what would be more modern information.

Really...? Not sure if you are being serious here. If you think that is the end all of brewing science, you have the wrong book and are 5 years behind the times. Ever heard of the WBC? Your buddies at TUM present their new stuff there, along with the Japanese, who are really the ones doing the research these days.

 

[Bilsch]

Called my Pentair rep. Most bulk beverage grade C02 is actually 99.97-99.99%, as it is largely coming from ethanol biofuel production and is purer than C02 from ammonia production, which was the norm yrs ago. Beverage minimum by law is 99.95%.

Really...? Not sure if you are being serious here. If you think that is the end all of brewing science, you have the wrong book and are 5 years behind the times. Ever heard of the WBC? Your buddies at TUM present their new stuff there, along with the Japanese, who are really the ones doing the research these days.

Yes I agree for those lucky enough to live in or near the corn belt where the ethanol production is concentrated. In these areas most suppliers will only bulk store one grade and sell it as everything below instrument or reagent because hauling in something lower purity would cost more. If on the other hand, you live in say Florida, your supplier will most likely store and carry several different grades. This makes it sort of a gamble to assume the lower grades you are buying are just the same as more pure gas. But even using 99.97% pure CO2, carbonated to 2 volumes is still probably going to put you over 500ppb TPO which is just way too much.

The brewing science in this book is solid and as far as I know in the past 5 years brewing science hasn't advanced past the need to take care of not oxidizing your beer. If I am wrong, kindly point me to the papers covering this new method of inox brewing!

 

[doug293cz]

Chemical reactions are greatly influenced by pressure and temperature and this controls the when. I surmise that it should be hours or days, not the mere seconds a bubble takes to rise through the column of beer. But if you were to raise the temperature of your beer to above say 65c, then I would bet these oxidative reactions could happen before that bubble breaks the surface.

It all depends on what the rate controlling step in the process is. If the rate controlling step is getting the O2 into the beer, then almost all the O2 in a bubble could very well be consumed before a bubble reaches the surface. If on the other hand the reactions are slow even in the presence of excess O2, then most of the O2 might make it to the surface. Is there any science that covers the kinetics of O2 interaction with these weak antioxidants?

Brew on

 

[Bilsch]

I see what your driving at but yes there has been at least some some research into this. I read a paper recently from the IBD that studied the oxidative potential of 28 different polyphenols. And of course there are many other antioxidants in beer such as iso-alpha acids and isohumulones, flavonoids, lipids and other fatty acids, reductones, melanoidins and most likely many more that I'm not aware of. I think it might be next to impossible, especially for a non zymologist like me, to wrangle all that data into an easy answer for you.

 

[doug293cz]

An experiment that could elucidate if the oxidation happens fast enough to worry about would be to carbonate a beer in two identical pressure vessels using CO2 from the same tank. In one vessel you just add the CO2 to the headspace, and in the other you bubble thru a stone in the bottom of the vessel, but do not vent the headspace at all. If the O2 binding happens quickly, then the O2 content in the headspace would be less than expected for an injection process where most of the O2 remains in the headspace. This experiment wouldn't tell you about which compounds were binding the O2, only if any of the possibilities bound it quickly enough to make sparged carbonation a wasted effort. As stated the experiment is just a concept, and would need more complete analysis and refinement to make sure that there aren't other things going on that could confound the results and interpretation.

Brew on

 

[Schlenkerla]

An experiment that could elucidate if the oxidation happens fast enough to worry about would be to carbonate a beer in two identical pressure vessels using CO2 from the same tank. In one vessel you just add the CO2 to the headspace, and in the other you bubble thru a stone in the bottom of the vessel, but do not vent the headspace at all. If the O2 binding happens quickly, then the O2 content in the headspace would be less than expected for an injection process where most of the O2 remains in the headspace. This experiment wouldn't tell you about which compounds were binding the O2, only if any of the possibilities bound it quickly enough to make sparged carbonation a wasted effort. As stated the experiment is just a concept, and would need more complete analysis and refinement to make sure that there aren't other things going on that could confound the results and interpretation.

Brew on

Screams the need for a Schaefer Fresh Keg.

The beer inside the bladder and the gas squeezes the bladder.

1 is the beer
4 is the pressure

https://schaefercontainers.com/products/kegs/fresh-keg-RR/

 

[Schlenkerla]

... screenshots resolution sucks.... This is in the download file in the above link.

 

[Schlenkerla]

FYI. Been thinking about this for awhile... LoL

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/60715/

 

[Schlenkerla]

Here another website with more info on the concept.

https://www.ecodraft.com/re-usable-kegs/

 

[TheMadKing]

Here another website with more info on the concept.

https://www.ecodraft.com/re-usable-kegs/

How do you clean it?

This is the same concept as a common pressure tank though, not a bad idea, just seems fiddly

 

[Vale71]

How do you clean it?

You don't as you just replace the inner bladder.
This is a really neat system. It's greatest drawback is lack of availability for non-commercial customers. If they presumably have a minimum order of several hundred pieces then they're out of reach for most homebrewers.

 

[Iseneye]

One of our local breweries uses them for hand pulled english style ales. Shame they are plastic as it's wasteful compared to steel kegs.

 

[Schlenkerla]

You don't as you just replace the inner bladder.
This is a really neat system. It's greatest drawback is lack of availability for non-commercial customers. If they presumably have a minimum order of several hundred pieces then they're out of reach for most homebrewers.

Schaefer is supposedly Homebrewer friendly.

See the HBT link I posted. Some HBT user uses these kegs.

I really like the Eco kegs.

 

[Schlenkerla]

How do you clean it?

This is the same concept as a common pressure tank though, not a bad idea, just seems fiddly

It's probably with contacting the Schaefer distributer. Somebody HBT uses these. I'll find his name.

One of our local breweries uses them for hand pulled english style ales. Shame they are plastic as it's wasteful compared to steel kegs.

IDK. I think the Schaefer system is completely reusable. I saw no mention of some consumable in their literature.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Here is the quote.

Schaefer kegs are the best and they don't mind selling to home brewers. I use keggys at home and they are way better than corny kegs. Certainly more professional but you need to know how to proerly clean and sanitize to use them as they do not disassemble easily...corny kegs are good as yeast brinks or if you don't know how or don't want to filter and that's all I use them for. Those guys ship out of Canada or the US which is sweet for me...I got some used 50L kegs for $90 from them awhile back...sweet deal.

@kcwcc - Do you care to comment further?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/60715/

 

[TheMadKing]

You don't as you just replace the inner bladder.
This is a really neat system. It's greatest drawback is lack of availability for non-commercial customers. If they presumably have a minimum order of several hundred pieces then they're out of reach for most homebrewers.

It sounds like another drawback would be buying a new bladder for every batch of beer too. Not to mention that I don't really see any major benefit to it if you have access to high purity CO2 like commercial breweries do, unless I'm missing something?

The portability is kinda cool, but I think that's more of a gimmick than a "I want to use it every day" function

 

[Vale71]

I think the main advantage would be that beer carbonation will not increase even if you have very long lines and must set a higher pressure on your regulator to actually push the beer all the way to the faucet, but that's probably mostly an advantage for public taprooms.

 

[TheMadKing]

You could try it out but I would suggest brewing a few beers with Sauergut first to get a baseline. My gut (no pun intended) and my experience tasting beers made with Sauergut tells me that it's not a flavor that can be duplicated exactly by other means.

So I've been looking around and I'm having a hard time finding any references to Sauergut anywhere. Do you have any links to historical references? Or brewing textbooks where it is referenced as a traditional technique as it is commonly referred to?

As far as google is concerned, it seems to be entirely an invention of the low oxygen brewing website

EDIT: Nevermind I found a couple - they just don't use the term Sauergut

 

[doug293cz]

I think the main advantage would be that beer carbonation will not increase even if you have very long lines and must set a higher pressure on your regulator to actually push the beer all the way to the faucet, but that's probably mostly an advantage for public taprooms.

Also useful for keg parties where pressure is maintained with an air pump rather than CO2 cylinder. The beer won't get hella oxidized or go flat, and should be drinkable for days.

Brew on

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This sounds very similar to Keykegs, which have become something of a standard for single-use beer containers in the UK. They can be used for beer with yeast in for conditioning so have been approved by CAMRA but they’re not quite the same as cask, not least as they’re almost impossible to vent so tend to come out over carbonated.

Wholesale price to breweries was about GBP14 (US$20) last time I looked which admittedly was some time ago.

 

[Big Monk]

So I've been looking around and I'm having a hard time finding any references to Sauergut anywhere. Do you have any links to historical references? Or brewing textbooks where it is referenced as a traditional technique as it is commonly referred to?

As far as google is concerned, it seems to be entirely an invention of the low oxygen brewing website

EDIT: Nevermind I found a couple - they just don't use the term Sauergut

Biological Acidification

 

[TheMadKing]

Biological Acidification

Thanks! Yep found it [emoji51]

 

[Schlenkerla]

Off topic but funny...