Disappointing heffeweitzen

[Carrollyn]

I made my first heff last month, and kegged it a few days ago. I'm pretty disappointed in it. There not a lot of flavor, a bit of cloves. I think I probably fermented a bit low, around 68? But the main problem is that is has a sour taste to me. Not infected, but more of a lemony sour.
Recipe:
BIAB
5.5 lbs Pilsner malt
4.5 lbs wheat malt, white

1oz Saaz - 60min
1 T pH stabilizer
1.5 tsp fermex
1/2 tsp Irish moss
Yeast: Mangrove Jack Bavarian Wheat M20

Mash 75 min @ 152
Og 1.040
Fg 1.015

It pretty well stayed and 68 during fermentation. I put it to bed around 9pm, and it was starting to bubble the airlock when I got up.

What made it be like this? Temps? Recipe? Yeast? Will time improve it? I made it 10/21 and kegged it 11/2.

 

[Yooper]

I made my first heff last month, and kegged it a few days ago. I'm pretty disappointed in it. There not a lot of flavor, a bit of cloves. I think I probably fermented a bit low, around 68? But the main problem is that is has a sour taste to me. Not infected, but more of a lemony sour.
Recipe:
BIAB
5.5 lbs Pilsner malt
4.5 lbs wheat malt, white

1oz Saaz - 60min
1 T pH stabilizer
1.5 tsp fermex
1/2 tsp Irish moss
Yeast: Mangrove Jack Bavarian Wheat M20

Mash 75 min @ 152
Og 1.040
Fg 1.015

It pretty well stayed and 68 during fermentation. I put it to bed around 9pm, and it was starting to bubble the airlock when I got up.

What made it be like this? Temps? Recipe? Yeast? Will time improve it? I made it 10/21 and kegged it 11/2.

I've never used that yeast strain, but it's supposed to have some banana in it. Is there none at all?

It's not the reason the beer is bland, but ditch the "stabilizer" and consider ditching the fermex. The stabilizer stuff really doesn't lock in your mash pH (it can't) and can cause some salty flavors in lighter beers, and I've never heard of fermex but if it's like fermaid, the DAP in there may be an issue.

 

[Carrollyn]

Nope, no banana. The blandness is a bummer, but I really don't like the tang. Sort of like if I had added lemon on purpose.
What is DAP?

 

[Yooper]

Nope, no banana. The blandness is a bummer, but I really don't like the tang. Sort of like if I had added lemon on purpose.
What is DAP?

di-ammonium phosphate. It's in things like Fermaid, primarily for wine or meadmakers.

I'd really look at that and see what it is you're using in the wort, as well as never using the 5.2 stabilizer stuff.

 

[mascervesa]

Diammonium phosphate: a type of yeast nutrient

 

[stpug]

The yeast description includes this little bit: "Slight acidity produced greatly enhances wheat malt characteristics." Perhaps you're experiencing some of this without the "greatly enhances" part .

As for the lack of overall ester/banana formation, you're dealing with a pretty low gravity beer (1.040) which are known to not produce as many esters as higher gravity. Additionally, your apparent attenuation was pretty low (62%) which reduces how much the yeast had to work with (it's like brewing a 1.035 beer with normal attenuation). I would have expected a least around 70% AA.

As already mentioned: The Fermax probably wasn't needed, and the 5.2 stabilizer generally does more harm than good.

 

[Carrollyn]

Thanks for the good advice. I normally get better results with my BIAB, but lately I haven't been. I'm thinking of doing the double crush to see if that makes it better.
Maybe I should be milling my own?
The ph stabilizer and yeast nutrient have just been ingredients recommended and put in some recipes I've used. If they aren't needed with whqt I'm doing, I'd be glad to ditch them. Yes, it has diammonium phosphate.

 

[stpug]

Thanks for the good advice. I normally get better results with my BIAB, but lately I haven't been. I'm thinking of doing the double crush to see if that makes it better.
Maybe I should be milling my own?
The ph stabilizer and yeast nutrient have just been ingredients recommended and put in some recipes I've used. If they aren't needed with whqt I'm doing, I'd be glad to ditch them. Yes, it has diammonium phosphate.

Don't feel bad about not totally nailing the mark with a hefeweizen - they can be tricky to get that awesome balance between banana and clove. If you like the beer style then just keep plugging away at it making deliberate but incremental steps along the way, and keeping good notes. Yeast is the singlemost important factor when it comes to a good hefe in my opinion. The only one that I feel does the style justice is Wyeast 3068.

BIAB is not your problem; the style is just a tough one to nail really well. Nutrients should also not be a problem (unless you way overdid them), but they may not be necessary either.

As for milling, double-crushing, etc... those are tools to play with but shouldn't make or break a beer. If you can determine and rely on what you get from your brew shop then they may not be necessary. With a mill comes extra expenditure, extra effort, and extra time, but you gain some control.

The 5.2's gotta go though. There are much better ways to control your water variables.

Edit: Also, here are a couple interesting posts on brewing hefeweizens based on pitch rates and temperature. These are other variables you can play with to really dial in your desired hefe profile.
Pitch rates: http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=154
Temperature: http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?p=164

 

[BroStefan]

Looking at the recipe it is s little off for style. Typically it would be 70% wheat and 30% pils. The wheat contributes a lot to the flavor, aroma and mouthfeel of this style.

 

[joshesmusica]

The yeast derived flavors, banana (esters) and clove (phenols), are directly related to pitching rates and fermentation temps. I've used that yeast and got great banana flavors and a little clove. One trick can be to under-pitch a bit to draw out more of the esters, but also ferment in the low 70s instead of the upper 60s. Next time try fermenting a bit higher. If that's not quite enough, you could try under-pitching, either by raising the OG or lowering the amount of yeast you use.

 

[Mer-man]

I have also used that yeast on a BIAB hefe. I went with a 60-40 wheat/pale malt blend.
It tasted like bananas and cloves -- the GF liked it, which is lucky, as it was for her.

I waited until all the yeast crashed out and then could drink it.

 

[Carrollyn]

What was really interesting was that last night was my home brew club meeting. Someone brought and excellent heff to share samples of. I could tell that it wasn't so much that mine had a tang that shouldn't have been there, but that it wasn't balanced by having the banana/clove/spiciness it needed. I think I was so afraid of it going over temp, (hot climate) that I kept it too low during fermentation.
I spoke with a friend (excellent Brewer) about my efficiency. I've been avoiding the double crush, thinking about possible astringency. I already add 10% grains for doing BIAB, he suggested making it 15%, but I think not. Maybe time to look at batch sparging with some club loaner equipment and see what I think.

 

[stpug]

What was really interesting was that last night was my home brew club meeting. Someone brought and excellent heff to share samples of. I could tell that it wasn't so much that mine had a tang that shouldn't have been there, but that it wasn't balanced by having the banana/clove/spiciness it needed. I think I was so afraid of it going over temp, (hot climate) that I kept it too low during fermentation.
I spoke with a friend (excellent Brewer) about my efficiency. I've been avoiding the double crush, thinking about possible astringency. I already add 10% grains for doing BIAB, he suggested making it 15%, but I think not. Maybe time to look at batch sparging with some club loaner equipment and see what I think.

Yeah, 10 pounds of malt for a 1.040 OG at 5 gallons is pretty low efficiency (~55%). I like to think of 65% as a minimum anyone should get on typical batches, and 70-75% is worth striving for. Perhaps for simplicity sake, try another batch at double-crush just to see how it affects your overall efficiency.

I think you're right about your brewing system/procedure - it's time to try something to increase those percentages.

As for hefe, the blog post I linked to talks a bit about temperature in his experiments and the conclusion is that lower may actually be better with hefe yeast for that banana ester (or at least the strain he used). It's worth the read if you haven't already.

 

[ncbrewer]

Bitterness might be a little high - don't know if that is really the problem. From a Beersmith newsletter, I show target BU:GU should be 0.24. It looks like yours is about 0.32.

 

[joshesmusica]

Bitterness might be a little high - don't know if that is really the problem. From a Beersmith newsletter, I show target BU:GU should be 0.24. It looks like yours is about 0.32.

I doubt that's the problem. I had a hoppy hefeweizen that was right at about .3, and it had great yeast character. Way over-hopping something like this might cover up the yeast character, but that would likely need to be upper-level pale ale to ipa amounts of bitterness and aroma hops.

 

[Rev2010]

1. It's spelled Hefeweizen
2. This sourish taste is a very common complaint and I think many go through this, myself included, and most homebrewers look for obvious faults that probably aren't the reason for it. Or else why would so many have no problems with regular ales but have problems with hefeweizen's?
3. I'm not familiar with Fermaid personally so not sure how that would affect it
4. 1oz of Saaz hops can be a bit too much bittering alpha acid's, really depends on the AA% as it varies quite a lot. Generally for hefeweizen's it's usually around an average of 1oz of 3% AA hops for a 5G batch, usually noble like Hallertau, Tettnang, etc.
5. You did use less than usual wheat to barley percentage, though that wouldn't have any sour affect on the taste.
6. How long was it in your fermenter before you bottled/kegged? ***EDIT - Scratch that, I see you kegged after 12 days. I think it's just too darn young personally. Let it sit longer in the fermenter and you'll probably be better off. I think the beer is just too green at that point in time***

See, one thing I've personally noticed is that most of my beers have this tart sour taste if I bottle/keg before 4 weeks time in the fermenter. So I let my beers sit for 4 weeks. Many here don't have to do this, but I do. When it comes to Hefeweizen's I've bought into all the talk about hefe's being best drank young and have bottled/kegged after 10 days but more commonly two weeks. I think the longest I've waited was 3 weeks. I think that may be *my* problem. So, I have one in there now and am going to let it sit four full weeks before kegging. I'll report back if desired. I just think maybe due to certain circumstances/situations or water, I dunno, some homebrewer's like myself just need to let it sit longer.


Rev.

 

[brewshki]

I make a Bavarian hefe pretty regularly, it was one of my first extracts and my first all grain, and I get some huge banana flavors. I have entered one of my more recent batches in some local comps, Inland Empire Home brew comp and one other that just started this year, and have one my categories with scores at about 37-38. I use a very basic recipe, from More Beer actually, and WLP300. I do not do a starter and ferment at 68F. This produces a ton of banana that some judges have described as a banana bomb. Are you married to the idea of using that yeast strain? If not, I would recommend playing around with different options. I have actually gotten advice to lower the fermentation temperature to better control the ester flavors.

 

[meatcleaver]

in my opinion, if you want to make great hefeweizen you need to use the proper yeast. the dry yeasts will do in a pinch but I think the best is the wiehenstephaner strain, or wyeast 3068.

 

[Carrollyn]

Yep, I usually let my beer sit in the fermenter for at least three, preferable four weeks. But that was the thing, I wanted some fast, and I read that you could hurry that style along. Maybe so, but maybe with all the other issues, it just failed.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yep, I usually let my beer sit in the fermenter for at least three, preferable four weeks. But that was the thing, I wanted some fast, and I read that you could hurry that style along. Maybe so, but maybe with all the other issues, it just failed.

I'm not trying to knock the other guy, or yourself, and I'm guessing Yooper will agree with me, but if you've got all the fermentation parameters right, there's no reason a beer like this won't be ready keg/bottle at two weeks, and that could be including a cold crash.

 

[Carrollyn]

An update. Just a couple days ago I tasted this again, and it turns out a little more time made it nicely passable. So this cements the wisdom I learned early on. Never pour your beer out when you first decide it's no good!

 

[Homercidal]

Nice!

I just wanted to chime in and mention that I don't think exchanging equipment is going to help your beer. There is nothing wrong with BIAB. If your efficiency is low, then you likely either had a math error, or you need to crush finer. I would not hesitate to crush finer with BIAB. It's probably the best lautering system for dealing with a fine crush.

I think that besides maybe increasing your efficiency with a finer crush, you may just want to play with pitching rates and temps with a Hefeweizen. They are kind of finicky in those areas.

 

[Qhrumphf]

As said before, Hefes are a tough style to get to be really good. Only way I've found to get both a substantial amount of both banana and clove (and admittedly more balanced to clove, which is how I like them, and how I percieve most true German examples I've had to be, most homebrew is way more on the banana/bubblegum), is pitching low, aerating low, and fermenting cold. Fermenting too warm emphasises the banana and drowns the clove, but pitching too much yeast kills the banana. Ferment it in the upper 60s with a normal ale pitching rate, and then end up bland. At the standard pitching rate, have to ferment in the low to mid 70s to get enough banana, and then the clove is completely gone. Underpitch and ferment in the upper 60s/low 70s, and you get a banana bomb. Pitch at a normal rate, ferment cool, you get plenty of clove but zero banana. That's my experience at least.

 

[Rev2010]

@Qhrumphf - thanks for that, makes sense. I too have had trouble getting that nice spicey clove taste like a Franziskaner has (and also has a ton of banana). Seems I can always get one or the other strong while the other is there but weaker. I've always wondered what their secret is to get both very prominent and know most hefe's are actually fermented on the cooler side, which I tried. I've never however tried pitching with an even lower rate than one Wyeast Smack pack. Will have to try that sometime.


Rev.

 

[Qhrumphf]

@Qhrumphf - thanks for that, makes sense. I too have had trouble getting that nice spicey clove taste like a Franziskaner has (and also has a ton of banana). Seems I can always get one or the other strong while the other is there but weaker. I've always wondered what their secret is to get both very prominent and know most hefe's are actually fermented on the cooler side, which I tried. I've never however tried pitching with an even lower rate than one Wyeast Smack pack. Will have to try that sometime.


Rev.

I usually pitch my Weizens between 0.375-0.5 million cells per mL per °Plato, ie approximately to slightly more than half of the rate of the Mr. Malty calculator. With dry yeast, the pitching rate is going to be higher than that, which I suspect might be the OP's problem. With liquid yeast at the age I normally get it from my LHBS (approx. 1 month old, approx 75% viable), it works out well enough for needing one smack pack, no starter to hit the bottom of my target range. Occasionally if it's fresher than usual I'll actually sit on the yeast a few weeks. Only if it dips below the 0.375 mark will I make a starter, and then it's a tiny one.

And then I actually don't do any additional aeration besides what's picked up transferring to the fermenter. Only beers besides sours that I don't hit with pure O2. Funny part is, new brewers could make a great Hefe, because that's newbie procedure, if they just ferment them cool enough instead of warm like they're often told to do with a Hefe (and get the banana/bubblegum bomb as a result). Explains why the first awesome beer I made (my 3rd batch, pure wheat extract and 3068) was incredibly good) because I fermented it cool enough.