Din Rail GFCI?

[jeeppilot]

I’m putting together (what as of now) is a 30A 240V single element BIAB panel and I stumbled upon this DIN Rail GFCI breaker.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/ASI-32-...er-DIN-Rail-Mount-NDB1L-32C-32-240V/307346213

I couldn’t find any discussion of this specifically in lieu of a spa panel or main panel GFCI. Has anyone used one? It’s substantially less expensive than most GFCI breakers, mounts nicely with my DIN contactors, and if I can just put a regular 30 breaker in the panel and forgo the spa panel entirely using this, I’d love to.

It says it’s 1- pole, which I’m confused with since it’s rated for 240V. Then again, I’m pretty new to this stuff. It’s also 30mA trip point which I understand is slightly out of US standards?

 

[doug293cz]

A one pole breaker is designed for European single phase 240V, not USA/Canada split phase 240V. 240V split phase requires a two pole breaker. And no, you cannot gang to single phase GFCI's together to handle split phase.

Brew on

 

[jeeppilot]

A one pole breaker is designed for European single phase 240V, not USA/Canada split phase 240V. 240V split phase requires a two pole breaker. And no, you cannot gang to single phase GFCI's together to handle split phase.

Brew on

Ah well that makes total sense for Home Depot to be selling a device only usable in Europe. [emoji849] So why do I see nobody using an American version of these in their panels? I can’t imagine they aren’t available for USA electrical standards.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I don't know of anyone who makes a DIN Rail mount, double pole GFCI breaker.

Personally, I don't like using a separate spa panel; I use a 30 amp GFCI breaker in the main panel

Pricey but worth the money. A GFCI is a last-resort kind of thing, but since we're dealing with home built rigs, I would never consider brewing without it.

I'm in the process of converting my rig to 50 amp; when I do that, I'll just use the breaker that comes in the spa panel kits and install that in the main panel (it was pre-wired with 6 gauge in anticipation of going to 50 amp). Seems a little silly that is less expensive than buying the breaker separately...

 

[jeeppilot]

I don't know of anyone who makes a DIN Rail mount, double pole GFCI breaker.

Personally, I don't like using a separate spa panel; I use a 30 amp GFCI breaker in the main panel

Pricey but worth the money. A GFCI is a last-resort kind of thing, but since we're dealing with home built rigs, I would never consider brewing without it.

I'm in the process of converting my rig to 50 amp; when I do that, I'll just use the breaker that comes in the spa panel kits and install that in the main panel (it was pre-wired with 6 gauge in anticipation of going to 50 amp). Seems a little silly that is less expensive than buying the breaker separately...

They make a WIFI enabled DIN rail breaker, so it seems like a standard 2 pole GFCI would be an easy one. But I guess not.

I also don’t want the extra of a spa panel and I found a GFCI breaker for the main panel that is virtually the same price as a spa panel. So I’m just going to go with that I think.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

They make a WIFI enabled DIN rail breaker, so it seems like a standard 2 pole GFCI would be an easy one. But I guess not.

I also don’t want the extra of a spa panel and I found a GFCI breaker for the main panel that is virtually the same price as a spa panel. So I’m just going to go with that I think.

A GFCI double pole breaker is relatively big (roughly twice the physical size of a normal double pole breaker), since it needs the extra current sensing ring inside to monitor all three wires (hot, hot, & neutral) for any current imbalance. Low demand and size makes it not worth manufacturing I would guess.

As for using the panel GFCI breaker, make sure it's the same style as your panel. The vast majority of home panels are Homeline, but not all are so they sell different styles. It's a pain to get the wrong one (ask me how I know...)

 

[jeeppilot]

A GFCI double pole breaker is relatively big (roughly twice the physical size of a normal double pole breaker), since it needs the extra current sensing ring inside to monitor all three wires (hot, hot, & neutral) for any current imbalance. Low demand and size makes it not worth manufacturing I would guess.

As for using the panel GFCI breaker, make sure it's the same style as your panel. The vast majority of home panels are Homeline, but not all are so they sell different styles. It's a pain to get the wrong one (ask me how I know...)

I got pretty lucky as it seems all the breakers are Siemens brand, and this GFCI also is and only $72. https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-MP230GFAP-Circuit-Interrupter-Lockout/dp/B01D4UHZ8M I guess Murray and Siemens are the same?

 

[501irishred]

I’ve bought them locally at an electrical supply house, but here’s one if you can’t find one close by.

https://www.alliedelec.com/product/altech-corp/gfl2d30030s/70989313/

 

[OneInTheHand]

I’ve bought them locally at an electrical supply house, but here’s one if you can’t find one close by.

https://www.alliedelec.com/product/altech-corp/gfl2d30030s/70989313/

I was looking at that same one today. My logic is: Why have an extra sub panel (typically spa panel) if I can just put the GFCI in the brewing panel. Less panels, less wiring. The only reason I see to do a subpanel is if you wanted to run power separate from the brewing panel.

@501irishred do currently use one those alltech GFCIs? Do you have a subpanel in front of your brewing panel?

 

[501irishred]

@501irishred do currently use one those alltech GFCIs? Do you have a subpanel in front of your brewing panel?

No, I’ve only used them through work. Actually have use GE more often (Replacing OEM parts), but they are twice the price and for home use couldn’t see spending extra. Ive never had an issue with the Altech brand with breakers and motor starters.
Full disclosure, I don’t even brew with electric . I use gas, but use a lot of the same automation, so it pays to troll occasionally.

edit: A reason you may want to add a “spa panel” would to protect your entire control panel, not just the peripherals. If you add protection inside your main control panel, the electrical connection feeding it is susceptible. Depending on your setup, this may or may not pose a significant risk.

 

[segallis]

In case anyone stumbles on this old post, as I did... From the datasheet, I'm not sure why the single pole GFCI mentioned by the OP could not be used for the 240V heater (or any combination of 240V loads). Both lines will pass through the current transformer (one line would connect to the "N" terminal), and the breaker will monitor any imbalance in the two lines and trip if current goes anywhere else.

Possibly there would not be magnetic/thermal overload protection on the one leg, but I'm not sure that matters given the main breaker feeding this GFCI will provide that protection, plus the GFCI would trip if the N path path has even slightly more current flowing than the L, meaning the L line will trip at over 32 amps.

So it would appear that this breaker could provide additional GFCI protection for the heater, if the main panel breaker does not have GFCI. Obviously, this second breaker CANNOT be used with any 120V loads at the output, because the return through neutral would trip the GFCI. But since they are way cheaper than a 2-pole 240 breaker, I am also considering adding this breaker to my brew controller for GFCI protection on the heater alone. I would then use a normal wall GFCI receptacle in parallel inside the controller for my 120V loads like my pumps (and internal electronics). Unless someone sees something I am missing?

 

[doug293cz]

In case anyone stumbles on this old post, as I did... From the datasheet, I'm not sure why the single pole GFCI mentioned by the OP could not be used for the 240V heater (or any combination of 240V loads). Both lines will pass through the current transformer (one line would connect to the "N" terminal), and the breaker will monitor any imbalance in the two lines and trip if current goes anywhere else.

Possibly there would not be magnetic/thermal overload protection on the one leg, but I'm not sure that matters given the main breaker feeding this GFCI will provide that protection, plus the GFCI would trip if the N path path has even slightly more current flowing than the L, meaning the L line will trip at over 32 amps.

So it would appear that this breaker could provide additional GFCI protection for the heater, if the main panel breaker does not have GFCI. Obviously, this second breaker CANNOT be used with any 120V loads at the output, because the return through neutral would trip the GFCI. But since they are way cheaper than a 2-pole 240 breaker, I am also considering adding this breaker to my brew controller for GFCI protection on the heater alone. I would then use a normal wall GFCI receptacle in parallel inside the controller for my 120V loads like my pumps (and internal electronics). Unless someone sees something I am missing?

A 30mA trip point is really too high:

Brew on

 

[segallis]

A 30mA trip point is really too high:

View attachment 715857

Brew on

Great point! Hadn't even considered the trip point! I decided to go with a class A 6 mA, Square D 2 Pole, so it will monitor both lines and neutral simultaneously. Now I only need a single GFCI breaker for the 220V heater and 120V pumps.

Cost me maybe an extra $60 over the two GFCI approach. But the wiring will be easier and everything inside, including the P/S for the electronics, will be GFCI protected. I ordered a 2 space load center that I will take the buss HW from and install in my controller aluminum housing to hold the breaker.

Thanks for the warning!
-G