Did I screw up my yeast?

[Newtobrewing85]

Okay,

So I’m making a bourbon Porter tomorrow from northern brewer. The recipe says “due to OG put in multiple packs of yeast or make a starter.” The OG is 1.065

I know what a starter is and I’ve read about them but I’ve never used them. The recipe recommended Lallemand Windsor and that’s what I got, dry. So I got propper yeast starter from the LHBS store today and dumped in 16oz of room temp distilled water with the can and the yeast. Swirl away all day.

Tonight I started reading my book (how to brew) because I was curious about the 1L it says it makes and about how much yeast cells were in a pack. Essentially I was second guessing myself for some reason.
I came across Lallemand’s instructions.

It points out rehydration, don’t use distilled and temperatures etc. Is this yeast even worth using now or should I just pickup a new pack? I don’t want to waste $45 in beer ingredients over $5 in yeast.

I’ll post the instructions in photos. TIA.

 

[SonomaBrewer]

Dude you are fine.

You started up a dry yeast, which is not typically necessary. The Propper starter has all of the yeast nutrients you need to do this. Pitching rate will be at or above target.

Just make sure to control ferm temp 64-72 or so. Get set for a great fermentation and a great beer. RDWHAHB!

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Dude you are fine.

You started up a dry yeast, which is not typically necessary. The Propper starter has all of the yeast nutrients you need to do this. Pitching rate will be at or above target.

Just make sure to control ferm temp 64-72 or so. Get set for a great fermentation and a great beer. RDWHAHB!

Okay, whew! Thank you, I was nervous lol.

 

[Falstaff]

I just always dump the packet in. A starter is fine too. 1.065 isn't even that high. "Multiple packets" is suspect. Sometimes it seems, from what I've read, that kits err on the side of caution telling you that you need to do things you don't necessarily need to.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

I just always dump the packet in. A starter is fine too. 1.065 isn't even that high. "Multiple packets" is suspect. Sometimes it seems, from what I've read, that kits err on the side of caution telling you that you need to do things you don't necessarily need to.

Im not sure why the kit specifies that, it’s Northern Brewer. But lallemand’s website and Brewfather both say a beer at 1.065 with that yeast needs like 16 grams of yeast and you should use 2 packets.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But lallemand’s website[...] say a beer at 1.065 with that yeast needs like 16 grams of yeast [...]

for making use of Lallemand's resources!

Lallemand's web site also suggests a way to pitch 16 grams of yeast in less than two packages:

-- storage tab on Learn more about our brewing yeast. | Lallemand Brewing​

​

​

 

[IslandLizard]

I've made many 1.060-1.065 ales using just 1 pack (11 g) of US-05, S-04, Belle Saison, you name it.
I always rehydrated in warm (95F) tap water, sprinkle, wait, stir, exactly according to the yeast manufacturer's instructions. Never had an issue with any of those.
The only "surprise" I encountered was a 1.090 Strong Ale that stalled or quit at 1.030, using 2 packs of S-04. Never found out what caused that, while others using the exact same recipe came in between 1.014-1.018. Still puzzles me. May have been lack of oxygenation/aeration, I didn't have an oxygen setup then.

It points out rehydration, don’t use distilled and temperatures etc. Is this yeast even worth using now

My emphasis.^
You didn't just rehydrate in distilled water, that would have been counterproductive indeed, as osmosis could kill cells. But you pitched the yeast into starter wort, that's very different from distilled water, and fine to use. It could revitalize and possibly produce more cells. We just don't have many facts about dry yeast starters, if they're beneficial at all.

I'd pitch that whole starter, at room temps, right off the stir plate. Don't cold crash and decant.

 

[2hennepin6]

I've made many 1.060-1.065 ales using just 1 pack (11 g) of US-05, S-04, Belle Saison, you name it.
I always rehydrated in warm (95F) tap water, sprinkle, wait, stir, exactly according to the yeast manufacturer's instructions. Never had an issue with any of those.
The only "surprise" I encountered was a 1.090 Strong Ale that stalled or quit at 1.030, using 2 packs of S-04. Never found out what caused that, while others using the exact same recipe came in between 1.014-1.018. Still puzzles me. May have been lack of oxygenation/aeration, I didn't have an oxygen setup then.


My emphasis.^
You didn't just rehydrate in distilled water, that would have been counterproductive indeed, as osmosis could kill cells. But you pitched the yeast into starter wort, that's very different from distilled water, and fine to use. It could revitalize and possibly produce more cells. We just don't have many facts about dry yeast starters, if they're beneficial at all.

I'd pitch that whole starter, at room temps, right off the stir plate. Don't cold crash and decant.

Island Lizard-no problem with contamination using warm tap water that hasn't been boiled? I ended up pitching belle saison dry yeast straight into fermenter today because I wasn't sure about using tap water and didn't boil and cool a bit of water to rehydrate the yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

no problem with contamination using warm tap water that hasn't been boiled?

Good eye!

Most of our brewing literature and yeast manufacturers would instruct you to pre-boil, then chill down to 95F while keeping it covered, before sprinkling the dry yeast. Then keep it covered during rehydration.
Since it's such a small amount, I'd boil then chill it in a sanitary way as much as possible.

For reference, top-up water used in most extract brews (partial boil) is not pre-boiled, coming straight from the kitchen faucet. That top-up water makes up 1/2 of the wort that wasn't pre-boiled.

Generally, using (unboiled) tap water for this process should not be an issue, as long as it's sanitary enough for you to drink. Most municipal water and well water is, but some may not. There's always the cleanliness of the outside of the (kitchen) faucet too. Or worse, that spigot that's only used 12x a year or so.

 

[IslandLizard]

I ended up pitching belle saison dry yeast straight into fermenter today because I wasn't sure about using tap water and didn't boil and cool a bit of water to rehydrate the yeast.

Nothing wrong with doing that (sprinkling dry). It's actually the preferred method (now).

The past 3-5 years most, if not all, dry yeast manufacturers have been recommending to sprinkle the dry yeast granules over the wort's surface and let her re-hydrate that way. Then after some time (10-20 minutes?) stir it to mix it into your beer. They do not promote pre-hydration anymore, or as being a better method. Not sure why that change was made, they're mum about it.

Note: Wort becomes beer as soon as you add yeast.

 

[Bobby_M]

The conundrum comes from the fact that one more pack of yeast is cheaper than a can of propper and doesnt take any extra time. I use two packs of dry yeast for anything over 1.060 or when I want fermentation character to be minimized.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

I've made many 1.060-1.065 ales using just 1 pack (11 g) of US-05, S-04, Belle Saison, you name it.
I always rehydrated in warm (95F) tap water, sprinkle, wait, stir, exactly according to the yeast manufacturer's instructions. Never had an issue with any of those.
The only "surprise" I encountered was a 1.090 Strong Ale that stalled or quit at 1.030, using 2 packs of S-04. Never found out what caused that, while others using the exact same recipe came in between 1.014-1.018. Still puzzles me. May have been lack of oxygenation/aeration, I didn't have an oxygen setup then.


My emphasis.^
You didn't just rehydrate in distilled water, that would have been counterproductive indeed, as osmosis could kill cells. But you pitched the yeast into starter wort, that's very different from distilled water, and fine to use. It could revitalize and possibly produce more cells. We just don't have many facts about dry yeast starters, if they're beneficial at all.

I'd pitch that whole starter, at room temps, right off the stir plate. Don't cold crash and decant.

See that’s what I don’t understand. Lallemand themselves says 2 packs but it does feel like overkill. Are they trying to sell more yeast or being honest? Either way I only had 24 hours so the starter went straight into the wort. I just threw in another pack of yeast and called it a day. It might be overkill, I don’t know. But I figured wth, Brewfather and Lallemand say 2 packs of yeast so I did 2 packs. I didn’t want to under pitch on a $45 beer kit. I’ve never heard pitching yeast and stirring though, I thought you just sprinkled and moved on.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

The conundrum comes from the fact that one more pack of yeast is cheaper than a can of propper and doesnt take any extra time. I use two packs of dry yeast for anything over 1.060 or when I want fermentation character to be minimized.

Propper was $5, Windsor yeast is $5 so they’re about the same. I’m not really sure why in my head I went straight to a starter over just buying more yeast from the LHBS. Oh well I guess I now have a $17 flask lol.

 

[Bobby_M]

Propper was $5, Windsor yeast is $5 so they’re about the same. I’m not really sure why in my head I went straight to a starter over just buying more yeast from the LHBS. Oh well I guess I now have a $17 flask lol.

It's not a waste at all. Starters are practically mandatory with liquid yeast so you'll use it in the future.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

It's not a waste at all. Starters are practically mandatory with liquid yeast so you'll use it in the future.

Lol I know, I was just saying at least now I have the flask.

 

[IslandLizard]

See that’s what I don’t understand. Lallemand themselves says 2 packs but it does feel like overkill. Are they trying to sell more yeast or being honest?

According to Lallemand, Windsor: Living Yeast Cells ≥ 5 x 10^9 per gram of dry yeast.
So an 11 gram packet will contain ≥ 5 * 11 = ≥ 55 billion cells.

From their calculator, using 5.5 gallons of wort with an OG of 1.065:
Yeast needed: 14.7 grams
Pitch rate: 2.7 g/gal
500g packets required: 1 packet
11g packets required: 2 packet

14.7 g * ≥ 5 billion/g = ≥ 74 billion cells to pitch.
I guess they guarantee the 5 billion per gram, but there could be more. Maybe some margin for aging is included.

You could use a partial packet (~1/3 - 1/2), and save the rest (~1/2 - 2/3) for a next brew, along with another packet. Or save (some of) the yeast cake after this batch is done and pitch some in a subsequent batch.

What always puzzles me is that with liquid yeast one would need to pitch 248 billion (live) cells in the same batch (5.5. gallons @1.065). That's more than 3x that of the dry yeast pitch.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

 

[Newtobrewing85]

According to Lallemand, Windsor: Living Yeast Cells ≥ 5 x 10^9 per gram of dry yeast.
So an 11 gram packet will contain ≥ 5 * 11 = ≥ 55 billion cells.

From their calculator, using 5.5 gallons of wort with an OG of 1.065:
Yeast needed: 14.7 grams
Pitch rate: 2.7 g/gal
500g packets required: 1 packet
11g packets required: 2 packet

14.7 g * ≥ 5 billion/g = ≥ 74 billion cells to pitch.
I guess they guarantee the 5 billion per gram, but there could be more. Maybe some margin for aging is included.

You could use a partial packet (~1/3 - 1/2), and save the rest (~1/2 - 2/3) for a next brew, along with another packet. Or save (some of) the yeast cake after this batch is done and pitch some in a subsequent batch.

What always puzzles me is that with liquid yeast one would need to pitch 248 billion (live) cells in the same batch (5.5. gallons @1.065). That's more than 3x that of the dry yeast pitch.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

I have a scale so I guess I could always measure it out to the specific grams as well but I’d be worried about adding any contaminants that way. I just threw the whole pack in because I wasn’t sure if could use 1/2. The instructions say to clean the top blah blah and if it’s soft don’t use it, or something like that, I guess the seal. But if you open a packet you just store it in the packet and fold it over? I wasn’t sure if that was sanitary or not.

I do have the catalyst so saving the yeast is much easier with the trub trap. I will probably do that, I haven’t yet but I’m only on like my 5-6th beer ever. That way the $15 I spent on yeast and propper isn’t totally wasted lol.

 

[IslandLizard]

But if you open a packet you just store it in the packet and fold it over? I wasn’t sure if that was sanitary or not.

Yeah, fold the flap over twice and tape it down. Then stick that into a ziplock baggie and squeeze out all the air to keep moisture out. Then store in your freezer. Dry yeast is best stored in a freezer, as long as it's kept dry, it keeps almost forever.

 

[IslandLizard]

I do have the catalyst so saving the yeast is much easier with the trub trap. I will probably do that, I haven’t yet but I’m only on like my 5-6th beer ever. That way the $15 I spent on yeast and propper isn’t totally wasted lol.

As long as you can keep the yeast retrieval sanitary, sure, harvest the yeast. Store the yeast slurry in a mason jar in the fridge.
One batch will generate approximately 4-5x the amount of yeast you pitched, so you only repitch a part of that slurry.
Treat the harvested slurry as liquid yeast, using the same calculator:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

Best not to reuse yeast from high gravity fermentations (say, over 1.075), but it depends on the yeast.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Yeah, fold the flap over twice and tape it down. Then stick that in ziplock baggie and squeeze out all the air to keep moisture out. Then store in your freezer. Dry yeast is best stored in a freezer, as long as it's kept dry, it keeps almost forever.

Oh damn good to know. I always put it in the fridge and freeze all my hops, I’ll toss them in the freezer.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

As long as you can keep the yeast retrieval sanitary, sure, harvest the yeast. Store the yeast slurry in a mason jar in the fridge.
One batch will generate approximately 4-5x the amount of yeast you pitched, so you only repitch a part of that slurry.
Treat the harvested slurry as liquid yeast, using the same calculator:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

Best not to reuse yeast from high gravity fermentations (say, over 1.075), but it depends on the yeast.

Good to know!! I’ll have to do some more research in all of this. I didn’t realize it grows that much, that’s awesome.

 

[IslandLizard]

I always put it in the fridge

Fridge storage is fine for dry yeast, but you can freeze it instead if you want to keep it viable longer. I've used dry yeast packages that were 3 years past the best by date, with zero problems.

Now liquid yeast needs to be stored refrigerated, don't freeze it as is, you'd kill it.
Liquid yeast (including harvested slurries) can be frozen too, but it needs a special process using glycerine and (small) tubes. Then it needs to be rebuild with step starters.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

Fridge storage is fine for dry yeast, but you can freeze it instead if you want to keep it viable longer. I've used dry yeast packages that were 3 years past the best by date, with zero problems.

Now liquid yeast needs to be stored refrigerated, don't freeze it as is, you'd kill it.
Liquid yeast (including harvested slurries) can be frozen too, but it needs a special process using glycerine and (small) tubes. Then it needs to be rebuild with step starters.

Liquid yeast confuses me. If it comes with less sells and requires a starter why do people love it over dry yeast? Seems like more work for something that costs more.

 

[IslandLizard]

Liquid yeast confuses me. If it comes with less sells and requires a starter why do people love it over dry yeast? Seems like more work for something that costs more.

One reason: Variety!
There are hundreds of liquid strains available.

And yes, they all need starters:

1. Prove viability - you don't know where she's been and how she was treated. Maybe she was on a truck for a week in baking hot sun.
2. Ramp up cell count - even a fresh (last week's) WhiteLabs Purepitch sleeve or a WYeast smack pack has barely enough cells for a direct pitch into a 5 gallon batch of 1.050 wort. Some yeast companies now make 150 and 200 billion cell packs for homebrewers, but point 1. (above) still needs to be respected. It's also rare to get any of them really fresh (less than 1-2 months old) unless you're willing the pay the $$$ price.
3. Overbuild - so you can save some out for a next batch, and so on. That's called yeast ranching.

 

[Steveruch]

Fridge storage is fine for dry yeast, but you can freeze it instead if you want to keep it viable longer. I've used dry yeast packages that were 3 years past the best by date, with zero problems.

Earlier this year I brewed with a pack of Muntons that had a 11/16 date. Turned out fine.

 

[IslandLizard]

Earlier this year I brewed with a pack of Muntons that had a 11/16 date. Turned out fine.

Freezer or fridge stored?
It's for the record.

 

[Steveruch]

Freezer or fridge stored?
It's for the record.

Mostly fridge, but some room temperature while moving.

 

[Newtobrewing85]

One reason: Variety!
There are hundreds of liquid strains available.

And yes, they all need starters:

1. Prove viability - you don't know where she's been and how she was treated. Maybe she was on a truck for a week in baking hot sun.
2. Ramp up cell count - even a fresh (last week's) WhiteLabs Purepitch sleeve or a WYeast smack pack has barely enough cells for a direct pitch into a 5 gallon batch of 1.050 wort. Some yeast companies now make 150 and 200 billion cell packs for homebrewers, but point 1. (above) still needs to be respected. It's also rare to get any of them really fresh (less than 1-2 months old) unless you're willing the pay the $$$ price.
3. Overbuild - so you can save some out for a next batch, and so on. That's called yeast ranching.

Ah I did not know this. One thing I’ve learned about brewing is I know nothing about brewing. Every time I go to make beer I realize I’m learning more stuff I didn’t know before. It’s overwhelming at times lol

 

[Miraculix]

Ah I did not know this. One thing I’ve learned about brewing is I know nothing about brewing. Every time I go to make beer I realize I’m learning more stuff I didn’t know before. It’s overwhelming at times lol

This basically never stops

 

[Newtobrewing85]

This basically never stops

I figured lol

 

[hotbeer]

The specs on that yeast say you can direct pitch to the wort. That's what I do so I can simplify brew day. You might give it some thought unless you feel you really get better control and/or beer by making a starter.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/TDS_LPS_BREWINGYEAST_WINDSOR_ENG_A4.pdf

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I just always dump the packet in. A starter is fine too. 1.065 isn't even that high. "Multiple packets" is suspect. Sometimes it seems, from what I've read, that kits err on the side of caution telling you that you need to do things you don't necessarily need to.

Agreed. I have used dry yeast quite a bit and my beers usually run about 1.070 to 1.075 OG. Of all the various dry yeasts I have used I have never had a stuck ferment just sprinkling a single standard pack on top of 5 gallons of wort and closing it up. I'm not gonna step out on a limb and say it's foolproof or optimum, and I do ferment at around 73 degrees, but there is obviously considerable wiggle room. The kit vendors have a vested interest in making darn certain that as little as possible is left to chance so the instructions are probably going to have a tendency to err on the side of caution. Just please nobody sue me because your beer didn't ferment when you followed my example. I have only been doing this a couple of years and still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Yeast that has not been well stored could fail, though. I get mine right from the big suppliers and avoid what is on sale (maybe they just want to give you a good deal, or maybe they want to get rid of yeast past its prime), and store it in the fridge.