Did I get dead Lacto?

[carrsgarage]

A couple of weeks ago, I brewed up a Berliner Weisse following Jsmil Zainasheff's instructions/recipe in Brewing Classic Styles.

I added the yeast and Lacto to the fermenter at the same time, per the book, and fermented at 67 degrees. I just transferred to keg yesterday and am extremely disappointed. There isn't the least hint of sour in this beer. It fermented and is a tasty beer in it's own right, but it is not sour. My wife tried it and, because it's pretty weak and uninteresting, said, "I guess you brewed a Bud Weisse."

Any thoughts on what may have happened here? This is the first time I've tried to brew a Berliner Weisse and I was really excited about it. Now I'm just really bummed out.

 

[Dgallo]

Did you use any hop in it? If you added any hops in your boil you won’t be able to sour using lacto. Lacto is extremely hop sensitive. Also anytime I used a lacto I kept it much warmer. But I also kettle sour my berliners

 

[carrsgarage]

Yes, I hopped at the beginning of the boil, just as the recipe calls for.

I wondered about the temperature, myself. Actually, I worried about every part of this up until brew day. I was going to kettle sour, but then listened to Jamil's podcast and his method sounded do darn convincing!

 

[Dgallo]

Ok so there’s you problem. Most Lacto strains will not work in Hopped wort. You specifically need choose a lacto tht can handle it.

What lacto strain did you use?

 

[carrsgarage]

Ah, so the recipe is flawed...

Darn it all.

 

[Calder]

I've not seen Zainasheff's recipe, but have seen a number of people mention it. I respect a lot of what Jamil has contributed to the world of brewing, but I would recommend tossing out that recipe or any of the procedures that go with it. Here are some things I have learned with brewing Berliners:

- If you add yeast and lacto at the same time, chances are that beer will not be sour.
- If lacto ferment temps are below 90 F, chances are that beer will not be sour.
- If you add hops, chances are that beer will not be sour.

Adding yeast and lacto at the same time is a problem, because lacto will not work (or work slowly) in an alcohol environment. Lacto really doesn't do much at temps below 90 F (or works slowly), and most lacto will not work in hop environments. Zainasheff's recommendations of pitching yeast and lacto at room temp invites failure.

I have had a lot of success by boiling/cooling wort, adding lacto, and keeping it at ~100 F for about a week. and then adding the yeast. I taste the wort before adding the yeast to ensure it is sour. Due to the low PH you need to pitch high (lots of yeast). I usually just dry hop, but if you want to hop, you can boil after souring and add hops.

I usually use probiotic tablets to sour my Berliners. I've not had a problem. If you use grain, you might want to ensure temp stays above 110 F to prevent unwanted bacteria flavors (clostridium/vomit flavors).

 

[carrsgarage]

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it!

I'll give it another shot next weekend, maybe.

 

[STMF]

Nvm, my misstake, sorry.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brew it again with no hops and use Lactobacillus plantarum. Dry hop after it's sour if you want the Hallertau flavor.

- If you add yeast and lacto at the same time, chances are that beer will not be sour.
- If lacto ferment temps are below 90 F, chances are that beer will not be sour.
...

Adding yeast and lacto at the same time is a problem, because lacto will not work (or work slowly) in an alcohol environment. Lacto really doesn't do much at temps below 90 F (or works slowly), and most lacto will not work in hop environments.

This is entirely incorrect.
Please stop spreading this misinformation.

Not that it matters much but the recipe does not call for hops in the beginning of the boil.

Is this the recipe?
http://www.brew-dudes.com/berliner-weisse-recipe/570
It has hops at the beginning.

 

[Dgallo]

I’m currently kettle souring a Berliner. If you like big hop presence the KS route might be better option for you. I use Omega 605. If your not familiar with the process it’s quite easy, you just need to find time where you can “brew” 2-3 days apart. You mash/sparge as you typically would and collect your runnings. Bring them to a boil for 10-15 minutes to sterilize the wort and don’t add any hops. Then cool to pitching temps, which with this blend is 70-95 (I always try to keep it in the upper end). It will sour to about 3.5/3.6 ph in 48-72 hours. When it hits your desired level of sourness, treat it as any other wort, meaning you can hop the hell out of it if you choose. Just reboil to kill the culture. Then pitch the yeast of your choice.

 

[STMF]

Nvm, my misstake, sorry.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why kettle sour?

Some people kettle sour because they don't want Lacto on their equipment because it might cause contamination. The same people tell you not to use hops when souring because Lacto is very hop-sensitive. You can't have it both ways.
L. plantarum won't contaminate clean batches with hops. There are plenty of examples here on the forum where people intentionally add Lacto to hopped wort/beer and it doesn't sour.

Other people might want to control the level of sourness by killing the Lacto before it reaches its full potential. That's legit if you only want mild-moderate sourness, but if you co-sour you can still easily stop souring by adding dry hops or hop tea.

Some people might want to kettle sour so they can have bitterness. Again, it's a lot easier to add a hop tea after it reaches the level of sour you prefer.

Why co-sour?
It's a much more simple process than kettle souring. Mash as normal. You can do a short boil or skip it entirely (no hops). Chill and pitch your yeast and Lacto plantarum, ferment above 65°F, and you're good to go. It will sour in a few days. You can add dry hops or hop tea after it sours, if desired.
No need to pre-acidify, perform multiple boils, leave your kettle lying around, or use higher pitch rates.

Why post-sour?
Acid mutes yeast expression. If you pitch your Lacto plantarum after letting the yeast ferment for a couple days, you'll get much greater flavor from the yeast. This is useful if you pick a strain like WLP644 Sacc Trois that contributes a wonderful fruity flavor.

Cheers

 

[brownni5]

This is entirely incorrect.
Please stop spreading this misinformation.


/QUOTE]

Thank you!

Different strains/species of Lactobacillus, and they all behave differently.

 

[Dgallo]

Why kettle sour?

Some people kettle sour because they don't want Lacto on their equipment because it might cause contamination. The same people tell you not to use hops when souring because Lacto is very hop-sensitive. You can't have it both ways.
L. plantarum won't contaminate clean batches with hops. There are plenty of examples here on the forum where people intentionally add Lacto to hopped wort/beer and it doesn't sour.

I usually agree with most of what you post but even if it won’t sour a hopped hop wort, you are allowing your eq

Why kettle sour?

Some people kettle sour because they don't want Lacto on their equipment because it might cause contamination. The same people tell you not to use hops when souring because Lacto is very hop-sensitive. You can't have it both ways.
L. plantarum won't contaminate clean batches with hops. There are plenty of examples here on the forum where people intentionally add Lacto to hopped wort/beer and it doesn't sour.
Cheers

I usually agree with what you say but this is something that is not a good call. You should always keep your equipment clean unless you have a designated “wild” set of equipment. That’s why Kettle souring is the best call. As you know bacteria is the worlds best procreater and the fastest to multiplier. There are always variations in the genes of bacteria. They are also the some of the smallest microbes and can easily stay in smal surface abrasions. If any of the lacto that makes it in those abrasions may actually have a greater hop threshold, though they may not effect the next few fermentation’s, eventually they would have the ability to populate enough to cause contamination.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I usually agree with what you say but this is something that is not a good call. You should always keep your equipment clean unless you have a designated “wild” set of equipment.

I could debate your points, but that's fine if we have different opinions.
Either method can produce basically the same beer. I try not to push anyone one way or the other.