Iy hope the group can help figure this out because I am having problems. I have been brewing for over 4 years. I started with extracts then to partial mash and finally to BIAB. At last count I have done 69 batches of beer with no problems until recently. Out of my last 7, five gallon brews 4 have been bad. The beers have had a very strong off flavor and smell that I have a hard time describing. It is not the hop, banana, cloves type off. It is more medicinal, alcohol. Also, the body of the beer is very thin. The beers I have brewed that have gone bad have all been darker beers, one porter two milds and a moose drool clone with a variety of yeasts (Nottingham, Safale 05, Mangrove Jacks west coast ale.). I have brewed enough successful beers to know what a green beer is like and this is not it. I have also kegged these beers and the taste and flavor do not go away. One puzzling thing is that these bad brews have not all been in a row. I have also brewe I have brewed a successful brown and a cream ale in between the bad ones, but the last three have been bad. I have also brewed three 2 1/2 gallon batches where the only thing different is the brew pot (and aluminum 7 gallon pot). I brew with a 62 quart stainless steel brew pot ans a camp stove burner. Clean using the same method I have always used, wash with unscented hand soap, then oxiclean, rinse and starsan right before using. I have transfered the cold wort using the pot ball lock with a hose, tried different hoses, and last time transfered with a new 1/2" siphon with a new hose. I have fermented in plastic buckets that have been used several times, a big mouth carboy that has been used three times and the last beer in a brand new large mouth carboy. I brew in my garage with the door open and know there are some pollens in the air. I do not have a fermentation box and ferment beer in my house where temperatures have mostly been around 77 but last brew was at 74. I think this pretty well covers it. If there is additional info needed, let me know. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. Ihave never checked pH but I am on well water so chlorine is not an issue. I have never checked pH but know my well water runs a little high.
Desperately in need of troubleshooting help
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flars
Well-Known Member
I would suggest not to use any dish soap. Just rinse all your hot side equipment after use. Use a soft scrubby if there is some residue stuck to the bottom of the boil kettle.
Do you make starters? Off flavors can be produced by under pitching the yeast. Have you had your brewing water analyzed? pH of the mash can make a big difference with different grain combinations.
Do you make starters? Off flavors can be produced by under pitching the yeast. Have you had your brewing water analyzed? pH of the mash can make a big difference with different grain combinations.
Kind of high temp for those yeasts
ncbrewer
Well-Known Member
This article covers the off flavors you mentioned: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/homebrew-off-flavors
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
It's often very hard to find the source of the problem. I'd suggest you get some PBW and add it to your largest pot with 140-150 degree water and place every thing you want to clean in it for an overnight soak. I'd probably replace all of my plastic tubing, anything cheap. I'd take my valves apart and give them a good overnight soak. Ditch the hand soap. It's not necessary and not standard process in any brewery.
It's possible you might have a change to your well water. Do you filter it at all? Have you had it tested? Ward labs can test it for you.
Brewing in the garage isn't a problem. Pollen and even wild bacteria is not going to hurt much on the hot side as your pasteurized post boil. How are you chilling your wort? How long does that process take you? I'd bet money that your problem is post boil.
Thin can be a description of a brett, or bacteria, I'd think the brett would take time to develope. Gram positive Bacteria can work a bit faster to ruin a batch.
Alcohol off flavor can come from high fermentation temps, which you have so it's possible you have a few things going on. Swamp coolers can help you lower fermentation temps a bit.
You may consider switching out iodophor for star San, or a bit of bleach. If you have a bacterial or wild yeast infection switching up your sanitizer can help. It's possible you have a biofilm somewhere down stream of the hot side. That can be anywhere from the valve on you pot or in you plastic fermentors or tubing. Biofilms are hard to sanitize as they are very hard to clean which make sanitizing difficult or impossible.
So get everything really really clean and sanitized. Swap out your cheap plastic stuff. Clean your ball valve and any gaskets or teflon tape. Swap out your sanitizer and sanitize after you clean then again on brew day. Longer contact time with PBW and sanitizer may help.
Good luck! Hang in there you'll get it figured out.
It's possible you might have a change to your well water. Do you filter it at all? Have you had it tested? Ward labs can test it for you.
Brewing in the garage isn't a problem. Pollen and even wild bacteria is not going to hurt much on the hot side as your pasteurized post boil. How are you chilling your wort? How long does that process take you? I'd bet money that your problem is post boil.
Thin can be a description of a brett, or bacteria, I'd think the brett would take time to develope. Gram positive Bacteria can work a bit faster to ruin a batch.
Alcohol off flavor can come from high fermentation temps, which you have so it's possible you have a few things going on. Swamp coolers can help you lower fermentation temps a bit.
You may consider switching out iodophor for star San, or a bit of bleach. If you have a bacterial or wild yeast infection switching up your sanitizer can help. It's possible you have a biofilm somewhere down stream of the hot side. That can be anywhere from the valve on you pot or in you plastic fermentors or tubing. Biofilms are hard to sanitize as they are very hard to clean which make sanitizing difficult or impossible.
So get everything really really clean and sanitized. Swap out your cheap plastic stuff. Clean your ball valve and any gaskets or teflon tape. Swap out your sanitizer and sanitize after you clean then again on brew day. Longer contact time with PBW and sanitizer may help.
Good luck! Hang in there you'll get it figured out.
This. 74-77 air temp, so your beer is at 80+ during fermentation.
This makes me want to go and pull my ball valve apart and see how it looks. I have a Blichmann Hellfire, but it has the shield in front to protect the ball valve and thermometer.....
I haven't had any issues with off flavors (yet!) but forewarned is forearmed.....
Wow, thanks to all for taking the time to post ideas. I cool with IC and it takes around 30 minutes to cool the wart. Since I have used the same process for past successful brews and have switched out hoses, siphons, fermentation containers, I have realized that the only constants in the bad brews are the boil pot and the IC. I will try the PBW in hot water and put everything I use in there.
I have one as well, and with my latest batch i blasted the hell out of the kettle for a quick boil as time was tight. The shield did NOT help to keep the rubber (?) handle on my ball valve from getting melted.
On a side note, I read all this yesterday and subsequently pulled apart MY ball valve last night. It looked just like it did in the Brulosophy post. Eye opening concept, and I'll definitely be cleaning that thing more frequently.
Well I disassembledd my ball valve and soaked brew pot and IC IN hot water and PBW. Did find some true remnants in the ball valve. I just brewed an American wheat and made room in my kegerator to ferment in the 60's. Keeping my fingers crossed
Your story sounds very familiar. It happened to me several times before I realized the problem. See above. I'm betting that your buckets are permanently contaminated. Once this happens, nothing on earth can sanitize them again, so don't even try -- I have and it didn't work. Throw them out and get new ones. Also reevaluate the age of all plastic and rubber in the entire brewhouse and replace soft materials that contact your wort. Problem will be gone. I can 90% guarantee it.
Good luck.
I took my BV apart tonite. It's a 3-piece that I bought from Spike when i bought my kettle.
Nothing untoward in there. A tiny bit of something on the gasket but I don't think it would have come in contact w/ the wort.
When I clean the kettle I keep the BV on it. Put in about 3 gallons of pretty warm water, add appropriate amount of PBW, then I open and close the BV a few times to flush it out w/ the pBW. I have a small brush I run back and forth through it while PBW is flowing through. Seems to work.
If you brewed something as clean as a cream ale in between batches, I would think your sanitation is on point. A beer that delicate would certainly highlight any sort of infection. It is almost certainly your water. The fact that you are only experiencing the issue with dark beers provides a perfect explanation. Dark malts drive the PH down so you need something to bring it back to an acceptable range; I use pickling salt. It is possible something changed with your water source. You mentioned that you know it runs high. Maybe it USED to run high and because of that, you may have had success with dark beers in the past. If you are not using a controlled source (RO/Distilled), you are flying blind. If your source changes and you don't account for it, your results will suffer.
I use Bru n Water to calculate PH and I start with RO. I used to measure PH every batch but I found Bru n Water to be accurate enough that usually don't even mess with measuring/adjusting any more. Try a few batches with RO and calculated PH. Not only will it likely fix your problem, it will put another great tool in your bag to make some great brew!
Again thanks for all the suggestions. I checked pH on my tap water which goes through a softener and it was 7.0. Straight out of the well it is 7.2. Not sure who this translates to brew water. I definitely will be disposing my brew buckets. I have two new big mouth fermentations that I am using on my current brew. I have three brew buckets and depending on which bucket I use, could account for a mix of bad and good brews.
The pH of your starting water is pretty much immaterial to mash pH. It's the water's alkalinity (buffering power) that affects mash pH, and how much acid is required to get sparge water pH below 6.0.
Softened water is often not recommended for brewing because of it's high sodium content (the softener works by trading calcium and magnesium in the water for sodium.) You might want to look into using RO water from the store, or installing your own RO system at home.
Softened water is often not recommended for brewing because of it's high sodium content (the softener works by trading calcium and magnesium in the water for sodium.) You might want to look into using RO water from the store, or installing your own RO system at home.
Depending on your circumstances, you could install an RO system without even thinking of a plumber.
I've since installed mine a bit more permanently, but here's a pic showing what I did. My RO filter hangs on the wall (you could make a stand for it). I feed it with water from the spout using a hose connection (Blue Line). The RO water goes into an Aquatainer (White Line). The Yellow Line is the waste water (down the drain). Pretty low end, but it works exactly the same as if I'd paid a plumber to install it.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
If you've done 69 brews and have a garage, its time to get fermentation temperature control. Depending on what size brews you do, the cost for a brand new small chest freezer and a temp controller can be as low as $250. Buy used stuff for more capacity and a lower price.
Off flavors can also be introduced when you are re-pitching yeast.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to save yeast and re-pitch but you do have to exercise some care. Pitching new yeast with no temperature control can present its own problems.
My 2 cents: Address the above issues before you worry about infection or any other problems. Adding temperature control alone will greatly improve your beer and enable you to cold crash for clearing yeast and you'll be able to brew lagers.
Off flavors can also be introduced when you are re-pitching yeast.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to save yeast and re-pitch but you do have to exercise some care. Pitching new yeast with no temperature control can present its own problems.
My 2 cents: Address the above issues before you worry about infection or any other problems. Adding temperature control alone will greatly improve your beer and enable you to cold crash for clearing yeast and you'll be able to brew lagers.
You can also get a smaller dorm-style refrigerator and use that as a ferm chamber. I have a larger refrigerator that fits two fermenters, but I wanted another ferm chamber to allow radically different temperature regimes to be possible.
The pic below shows a 4.4-cubic foot refrigerator. The door has molded shelf and bracket fixtures which make it appear like a fermenter can't fit in it...but shockingly, it can. That's a bigmouth bubbler.
A larger refrigerator or a chest freezer would probably be better, but if you're low on space or run across one of these smaller 4.4 cu ft jobs, take a good look at it.
We're on the same page madscientist. I have already purchased a 7.1 chest freezer from Sams and am waiting for it to be delivered. I have also purchased a two stage temperature controller. I know this will open up a whole new world of brewing. BTW, cost for the new chest freezer and the temperature controller was $174. Kick myself for not taking this step earlier.
Wanted to update my efforts to solve my problem. Since my first post I have purchased a chest freezer with a temperature controller so I am now able to control and set lower fermentation temperatures. To see if this would take care of my proble orr, as some have suggested, is it my water. I haave brewed two half batches of the same brown ale. One I brewed with my tap water and one with purified bottled water. I have both fermentors in the chest freezer at 68 degrees. My thought in this is if both brews turn out good, I can assume my problem is high fermentation temperatures. If the tap water brew is bad and the bottled water is good, I reason I can assume my tap water is the culprit. I used new fermentation vessels and new hose and siphon for both, so if both brews are bad, I am lost as to what to do next. I will update in a week.
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