Decoction needed?

[Trails_n_Ales]

I'll be brewing a roggenbier this weekend and wanted some feedback on doing a decoction mash. Below are the instructions per recipe:

1. Begin mash with 28 qts (26.5 L) of water at 127° F (53° C). Conduct a 35 minute protein rest at 122° F (50° C). For a 30 minute decoction, boil approximately 12 quarts (11.35 L) of thickest mash. Add back into mash tun and raise temperature to 165° F (74° C). Hold for a 30 minute saccharification rest at 165° F (74° C). Fly sparge 1 gallon of water (3.8 L) and collect approximately 6 gallons (22.7 L) of wort.

Do I really need to do the decoction? or could I do the protein rest for 35 minutes then saccarification rest at 165 for 30? I'd prefer to avoid the decoction if at all possible. Recipe below just for added info.

• For 5 Gallons (18.93 L)
• 6.0 lb (2.72 kg) rye malt
• 2.0 lb (0.9 kg) Durst pilsner malt
• 2.0 lb (0.9 kg) pale malt
• 1.0 lb (0.45 kg) 80° L crystal malt
• 1.0 lb (0.45 kg) flaked rice
• 1.0 lb (0.45 kg) wheat malt
• 1.0 lb (0.45 kg) rice hulls, in mash
• 1.0 oz (28 g) Hallertau pellet hops, 3.9% a.a. (60 min)
• 1.0 oz (28 g) Hallertau pellet hops, 3.9% a.a. (10 min)
• 1.0 oz (28 g) Hallertau Hersbrucker pellet hops, 2.4% a.a. (2 min)
• 2 vials White Labs WLP 380 ale yeast

 

[jtratcliff]

You could skip the decoction...

Or perhaps use some melanoiden malt to replicate the presumed affect of the decoction...

See Denny Conn's thoughts in the 1st answer to the question here:

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/q...proper-way-to-use-melanoidin-malt-in-a-recipe

 

[Trails_n_Ales]

Thanks for the info and linking that in. So if I forgo the decoction mash should I do a 35min protein rest at 127 and then a 30 min at 165? Or just do a 60min at say 152?

 

[jtratcliff]

IMO, I'd skip the protein rest as well... From what I understand it is a hold-over from when grain was less modified. Modern malts supposedly don't need it. It can actually be detrimental to head retention....

Here's Palmer on the topic: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-protein-rest-and-modification

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for the info and linking that in. So if I forgo the decoction mash should I do a 35min protein rest at 127 and then a 30 min at 165? Or just do a 60min at say 152?

A 30 minute mash at 165 would be an extended mash out not sacchrification rest. That temperature would denature the enzymes. 152 to 156 would be appropriate.

 

[Trails_n_Ales]

Sounds good everyone. Appreciate the feedback

 

[jtratcliff]

A 30 minute mash at 165 would be an extended mash out not sacchrification rest. That temperature would denature the enzymes. 152 to 156 would be appropriate.

Ooh! Good catch! I was so focused on the decoction that I didn't even notice the mash temp.

 

[dmtaylor]

Protein rest is evil. Don't do it. It would kill body and head retention.

Decoction is fun to play with, but doesn't actually improve flavor. It can improve efficiency a little bit though.

 

[RM-MN]

Protein rest is evil. Don't do it. It would kill body and head retention.

Decoction is fun to play with, but doesn't actually improve flavor. It can improve efficiency a little bit though.

With the amount of rye malt in that recipe would a beta glucan rest be worth the decoction? Without breaking up the gooey beta glucan I think there will be trouble draining the mash tun.

The only other solution to the gooey mess that I know of is to do this batch BIAB so the OP could squeeze the wort out.

 

[John Eberly]

90 degree beta glucan rest for 30 minutes is wise, rye is sticky in the mash. Probably should be some rice hulls in there too.

Decoctions do make a big difference in beer flavor. OP is trying to make a very ancient style of beer. If he wants to know what the stuff tasted like in 1350 he should follow the traditional methods for making it IMHO.

I do wonder about the rest at 165, that is unusual. What is the source for this recipe? Are there any notes about the process?

 

[RM-MN]

90 degree beta glucan rest for 30 minutes is wise, rye is sticky in the mash. Probably should be some rice hulls in there too.

Decoctions do make a big difference in beer flavor. OP is trying to make a very ancient style of beer. If he wants to know what the stuff tasted like in 1350 he should follow the traditional methods for making it IMHO.

I do wonder about the rest at 165, that is unusual. What is the source for this recipe? Are there any notes about the process?

Could that just be a typo and it should have been 156? That would be a reasonable saccrification rest.

 

[dmtaylor]

I agree a beta glucan rest wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd just skip a protein rest. Also agree that 165 F is awfully hot. If you still want to mash high, try 157 F or something like that, where only some but not most of the enzymes will be denatured in the first few minutes.

 

[jtratcliff]

Decoctions do make a big difference in beer flavor.

I think you'd find some argument there.... Denny Conn from the link above, for instance.

And the Exbeeriment...

and Kai's experiment...

All show very little difference.

 

[Trails_n_Ales]

Thanks all for the feedback. I wanted to stick to the recipe and wasn't sure if a decoction made a difference. I can't find the source of the recipe as I just stumbled across it reading some brewing articles. Never even tried the style so I thought what the hell. I think ill do the beta glucan rest at 90 for 30 then mash at 152.

 

[chumney]

I re read your grain bill. With that amount of rye malt in the grain bill, I would use a single decoction mash from the protein rest to get to the rest at either 145 or 152. The reason being the rye malt has a higher probability of needing the starch in the husks made accessible to the enzymes. I would heat the thickest 1/3 to 1/2 of the mash to 152 and hold for 30 minutes. Then raise to 170 for 10 minute rest. then raise to boiling for 20 minutes before adding back to the main mash. I know this is counter to what most of the others have posted, but even with this added step and a protein rest you will not have any issues with either the body or the head retention. It will improve the efficiency of the extract.