Dead Yeast? No starter activity, no krausen no bubbles in 24hrs. Which option is best?

[luckybeagle]

Hi

I attempted a 1.6L starter with 1 packet of WY3522 Belgian Ardennes yeast in my erlenmeyer flask with stir bar. I've made dozens of starters and have never had this happen before:

1. Yeast smelled a little like canned cat food with a touch of signature Belgian spice as I was pouring it. I've smelled this before in OLD slurries, but never in a yeast packet.
2. Yeast was maybe a little darker in color. Date on package is 12/4/19 (nearly 4 months old). Purchased from fridge at LHBS.
3. I've turned off the stir bar after 12 hrs to see if krausen built up. None. No bubbles rising. Separation occurs quickly. Starter still smells like DME boiled for 15 minutes (creamed corn - not at all like beer)
4. It has now been 24 hours and I have the option of either stepping up, which seems like a waste of DME, or adding WY3787 slurry from my fridge to the starter and brewing with that/some weird hybrid of 3522 and 3787, which has its own risks (I am suspect it is contaminated)

Is the Ardennes yeast toast? I've smelled that smell before in old slurries in my fridge (and tossed them) but have heard smell isn't the best indicator. I could take a gravity reading with my refractometer to see if fermentation has occurred, but all signs point to no fermentation.

Alternatively I could pitch my 3787 into the starter and use that instead, but there is a slight fear of infection. After I racked my beer from the carboys holding WY3787 to my kegs for extended 50F storage, both kegs got infected. The yeast smells fine, but I don't know if the infection was caused by my racking cane, tubing, chest freezer/fermenter, or wine thief--and/or if the infection is also in the yeast slurry. It smells and tastes fine, and the Dubbel I have in the carboy still (that used some of this yeast) does not have the same infected smell/taste.

Thoughts on how to best proceed? Wait longer to see if the Ardennes picks up? Seed the starter with 3787? My LHBS are out of Ardennes now, and I don't much care for 1214 or 1388... Help!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is the Ardennes yeast toast?

Sounds like it.

Alternatively I could pitch my 3787 into the starter and use that instead, but there is a slight fear of infection. After I racked my beer from the carboys holding WY3787 to my kegs for extended 50F storage, both kegs got infected. The yeast smells fine, but I don't know if the infection was caused by my racking cane, tubing, chest freezer/fermenter, or wine thief--and/or if the infection is also in the yeast slurry. It smells and tastes fine, and the Dubbel I have in the carboy still (that used some of this yeast) does not have the same infected smell/taste.

I would get rid of that yeast rather than risk further contamination.

My LHBS are out of Ardennes now, and I don't much care for 1214 or 1388... Help

Order online if your LHBS doesn't have what you want.

 

[Oldskewl]

Give your 3522 another day or two. I had the same thing happen recently on a 530 starter for a Leffe Clone. By the 48 hour hour mark it took off. Since it was old it may take extra time to take off.

 

[Deadalus]

I occasionally have a yeast pack months out of date and use them. I haven't kept good track of whether those specific ones were slow. I just had a fairly old pack (6-8 months old, I should have wrote it down!). I decided to go smaller with starter (400ml) and step it up once. I figured that a good amount of yeast might be dead. You might have pitched a small amount of yeast relative to the starter size and it is just taking time to take off.

The yeast I was using was California Ale Yeast V, WLP051. I have to say, it took off in the smaller starter and then the next step. I was also seeing activity starting 4-5 hours after pitching when I went to bed and the next morning it was rocketing. It was pitched cooler at 65-66F and then I put a heating pad on it to warm it up to 68F. I didn't smell it but I will say it did seem darker than other styles, like you mention above. It was something I was wondering about. First time using it. Still in the fusti though.

I wouldn't pitch the 3787 slurry either. Do you have any yeast nutrient you could add to the starter? Is your room temperature well controlled? Maybe you could warm it up a little bit.

Adventures in homebrewing offers these yeasts as subs:
Liquid Yeast Substitution : White Labs 550
Dry Yeast Substitution : Abbaye Ale Yeast (Danstar), Nottingham
I haven't used any of them to comment on the substitution.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks!!

Out of laziness, I left it on the stir plate. Last night I turned off the stir plate and saw lots of tiny bubbles ascending to the surface. I turned the stir plate back on. This morning, the color had changed (gotten a little lighter) and it smells like clove spice (and tastes like it, too). Brix reading is 3.8, which is 1.005 FG assuming I hit 1.035 OG (did not measure, but followed the 1g/10ml rule of DME to water). My house is a constant 70F.

Sounds like it went from inactive to ripping through fermentation overnight?

Can I pop it in the fridge now for a quick crash and decant before I step up?

 

[smcinco]

I just found a 5yo vial of Essex yeast. I attack.

 

[Deadalus]

I don't see why you couldn't crash and decant. I don't usually do that myself, I prefer to pitch at high krausen. One recommendation I've seen when stepping up calls for about 5-10x previous volume. Since you started with 1.6l though, that would be big so maybe decanting is reasonable if you don't have a big container. I'd lean on the smaller side for the next step since maybe you didn't have a full population. Just wanted to mention also, I oxygenated my wort when I pitched.

 

[luckybeagle]

I don't see why you couldn't crash and decant. I don't usually do that myself, I prefer to pitch at high krausen. One recommendation I've seen when stepping up calls for about 5-10x previous volume. Since you started with 1.6l though, that would be big so maybe decanting is reasonable if you don't have a big container. I'd lean on the smaller side for the next step since maybe you didn't have a full population. Just wanted to mention also, I oxygenated my wort when I pitched.

Thanks!

Yes, I have one more step to do - just under 1 L for the next step. I probably could pitch 2.6 liters into a 5.5 gallon batch without ill effect, right? I'd rather NOT crash and decant if I don't have to (I'dlike to brew tonight and pitch before bedtime, so that'd allow about 10 hours on the stir plate for the yeasties to reach high krausen). My erlenmeyer is about 3L in size so space isn't an issue. Thoughts on that??

 

[Deadalus]

There are a lot of other people on here with better understanding of yeast life cycle. I use a pretty informative Zymurgy article though that says if putting a vial of yeast into too small of a starter can result in yeast that "do not rebuild their reserves and have very little increase in cell mass. Elsewhere in that article they say that a pack about doubles in population in a 2l starter. Roughly calculating suppose 1/2 your pack died plus your starter size was 80% of 2l maybe you have about a pack of yeast in there. You could split it up some. Make about 3 liters of wort. Pitch about 900ml of the starter into about 1800ml of wort in the flask, and put the rest of both in another sterilized container like a growler and shake periodically. I think you'd be avoiding the issue of the step size being too small that way. Just my thoughts on it.

I've pitched more than 2 liters into a 5-6 gallon batch, less than 4 into a lager. I try to use pilsner malt for lagers and golden light or pale malt for ales so that the base malts are similar. I don't think it affects it much in my opinion.