Cut back first hop shoots? Or wait and cut back all but best 3?

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I did not cut mine back this year, and some are over 10' tall. I would guess it is to late to cut them back know?

I would imagine. Sounds like your growing season starts early. Maybe keep a log and trim them back next year (when first shoots are 6-12 inches). My question is, if the hops are that early do you delay longer or just trim them once and let them go?

I'm only going to start training around the beginning of May for cascades and probably a week or two later on magnum. But mine are just now starting to show. I cut back the cascade yesterday and the magnum will be next week or so.
 
From reading the Jason Perrault presentation (link B-Hoppy gave - http://www.uvm.edu/extension/cropsoil/wp-content/uploads/jason-perrault-transcript.pdf) it seems clear that the cutting back has 2 primary reasons. First is to control growth. From his explanation you are actually bleeding off the energy of the plant so that the later growth is more restrained and NOT, as some have stated, letting it put more energy into later shoots; you have taken their energy, plain and simple. Perrault explains this very clearly. The second thing is to control downy mildew. IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST the later season is dry so cutting back and letting shoots come later when it is dryer makes sense THERE. In much of the east we get humid and damp summers. I (Western Massachusetts) always get heavy dews (open hilltop, radiational cooling) and I am going to have good downy mildew conditions all summer, and I do get this. So for many of us, the key to cutting back is going to be the first factor: weakening the plant so that internodes develope closer together and thus sidebranches are more numerous, and the bines don't overgrow the top of the trellis. If you read the commercial management of hops and the suggested spraying (http://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/hop-humulus-lupulus-downy-mildew) you will be glad you are growing your own. My hops get some downy mildew - Cascade is least susceptible, Chinook, Nugget just a bit. I've had serious trouble with Willamette and Santiam and Saaz have been totally trashed, so the variety you may successfully grow in your location might be limited.

Cheers! and may you have a good growing season! I hear hop prices are soaring...
 
From a disease management perspective, removing that first growth is a way to minimize the number of overwintering spores that survive to continue the disease cycle in the present growing season. The higher humidity we experience compared to those growers out west makes it really important to stack the deck in our favor, so removal of the first growth should be a routine practice in areas of high humidity. It's worked for me for many many years.
 
From a disease management perspective, removing that first growth is a way to minimize the number of overwintering spores that survive to continue the disease cycle in the present growing season. The higher humidity we experience compared to those growers out west makes it really important to stack the deck in our favor, so removal of the first growth should be a routine practice in areas of high humidity. It's worked for me for many many years.

I guess it isn't going to hurt anything to cut back, and if you are doing it for the "energy control" you will get whatever disease control comes with it. I never see the infected spike shoots when my shoots emerge. In the Western Mass hills it is too cool for the mildew to take off when the shoots emerge. My emergent shoots always look fine and grow well. My susceptible varieties get hit later when it warms up and the bines are 6feet + in height; and it goes crazy in a damp summer. I find it a stretch to believe that much innoculum overwinters in the buds (which are almost not even there in the late fall) that isn't just around and in the vicinity anyway. And don't you think cutting or mechanical abrading back to the soil level is going to spread any innoculum that you intended to remove, and wound the plants? I think this disease is just here and when conditions are right it strikes. Of course, cleanup around the plants in the fall is always a good idea.

From what I've read here and in the linked material, the real trick is to work out when to cut back. That is going to vary with variety, in different regions and, as any gardener knows, no 2 seasons progress the same, so going by date alone seems sketchy. This definitely seems to be the individual "art" part of the equation. From reading in those linked docs it looks like cutting back late can reduce yield much more than cutting too early or not at all. Even Perrault, who definitely advocates cutting back, states that they don't cut back first or second year plants, and it seems that those plants must do OK.
 
Since I began growing back in the late 80's, I've never ever had any situations where I observed more than maybe one or two basil spikes early in the year. What I've seen while visiting a friend in Oregon was much different. Here's a paragraph from a bulletin from UVM explaining disease issues with hops (http://www.uvm.edu/extension/cropsoil/wp-content/uploads/DownyMildew.pdf) :

Downy mildew can live on infected leaves, shoots, and cones, and will usually
overwinter in infected
dormant buds and crowns as intercellular mycelium
.
M
ycelium
that overwinters in the crown
will spread
into developin
g buds during winter and early spring, which is why shoots are already infected when
dormancy breaks, resulting in primary basal spikes.
However, infected crowns don’t always yield basal
spikes
;
sometimes infected crowns will yield both healthy
shoots
and
infected
basal spikes, and
sometimes infected crowns will only yield healthy shoots
(Johnson et al. 2009
).


"And don't you think cutting or abrading back to the soil level is going to spread any innoculum that you intend to remove . . ." I asked the same question long ago and seem to remember hearing that the organism needs living tissue to survive. Having heard this information from attending seminars, speaking directly with growers and other folks who work in the industry in the PNW, I've used some of the suggested practices and can tell you that they do work, to the point that I almost didn't have any to inoculate my seedlings with last year, haha! Definitely not an expert but try to gather information from those with proven years of experience and go from there.
 
Well, that all makes sense. Not sure that I have it overwintering as infected dormant buds if it only affects the leaves much later in the season, and not every year, and not emergent shoots... But I definitely get the leaves of several varieties hit later when it is warmer - IF we get a sustained rainy spell. Last June (late) we had an extended wet spell and it hit my Santiam at that time (picture, July 19 with damaged leaves and compressed laterals trying to grow). Chinook leaves were affected during this wet spell but they made a good crop since the infection period seemed to pass and the side branches developed normally and made good cones.

DSCF0151-1.jpg
 
Just a bit of experience. I trimmed my cascade back 4 days ago. It is already starting to show new growth. I'm trying to hit the end of April to beginning of May to start training. It doesn't seem you lose a whole lot cutting back. It seems it lets the plant use its stored energy more efficiently.
 
Just a bit of experience. I trimmed my cascade back 4 days ago. It is already starting to show new growth. I'm trying to hit the end of April to beginning of May to start training. It doesn't seem you lose a whole lot cutting back. It seems it lets the plant use its stored energy more efficiently.

What technique do you use to "cut back"? Do you cut with a knife? Just pull them? When I'm thinning unwanted shoots I just pull and they break near the base most times. I don't like the idea of mechanically damaging the whole top of the crown, but I have to admit that some of my best crops long ago were years that shoots and weeds got the upper hand in spring and I just tilled over the whole row (shallow) and trained from what regrew. I recall it was a sad mess of rhizomes and roots all chewed up by the tiller, but they thrived in spite of this.

I was just looking at my notes from last year. We had cold and snow on the ground until pretty late - about 4/10. When the snow melted I saw that the Chinook (early movers) had 1/2" expanding buds on 4/15. On 5/5/2015 I cut them all to the ground (were 12" to 18" high). This year we had early warm weather, then nights to 12F, now warmer and they are growing again, but the Chinook are 6" tall already this year..

So last year when I cut them back and they were late anyway, then when they regrew they were coming on when it was warmer and days longer. But they started with visible flowers around the solstice (so floral induction must have happened when the bines were pretty short - I didn't count nodes). Aside from the mildew that hit some varieties in June (when 6' to 18' high), the result of the cutting back was that they did not get as high, barely past the top of the 24' wires (instead of overgrowing and hanging back down half-way). The nodes didn't seem more compact, and I felt that the yield was less - but that could have just been the season. It did reduce the size of the plant though - made them a bit more manageble, but only pushed back the harvest date just a little.

This year I have more mature plants and will cut back half of them so I have a better sense of what effect is from cutback and what is from the quirks of the growing season.

And one other thing about the pruning. It is my understanding that the young rhizomes (horizontal shoots just at the surface/subsurface) are the plant's way of spreading and since they aren't rooted and I don't want spreading, these are freely ripped up or cut off. Is this how you manage the nightmare of wild growth? I can't see that these young rhizomes contribute to the current or future health of the plant.
 
What technique do you use to "cut back"? Do you cut with a knife? Just pull them? When I'm thinning unwanted shoots I just pull and they break near the base most times. I don't like the idea of mechanically damaging the whole top of the crown, but I have to admit that some of my best crops long ago were years that shoots and weeds got the upper hand in spring and I just tilled over the whole row (shallow) and trained from what regrew. I recall it was a sad mess of rhizomes and roots all chewed up by the tiller, but they thrived in spite of this.

I was just looking at my notes from last year. We had cold and snow on the ground until pretty late - about 4/10. When the snow melted I saw that the Chinook (early movers) had 1/2" expanding buds on 4/15. On 5/5/2015 I cut them all to the ground (were 12" to 18" high). This year we had early warm weather, then nights to 12F, now warmer and they are growing again, but the Chinook are 6" tall already this year..

So last year when I cut them back and they were late anyway, then when they regrew they were coming on when it was warmer and days longer. But they started with visible flowers around the solstice (so floral induction must have happened when the bines were pretty short - I didn't count nodes). Aside from the mildew that hit some varieties in June (when 6' to 18' high), the result of the cutting back was that they did not get as high, barely past the top of the 24' wires (instead of overgrowing and hanging back down half-way). The nodes didn't seem more compact, and I felt that the yield was less - but that could have just been the season. It did reduce the size of the plant though - made them a bit more manageble, but only pushed back the harvest date just a little.

This year I have more mature plants and will cut back half of them so I have a better sense of what effect is from cutback and what is from the quirks of the growing season.

And one other thing about the pruning. It is my understanding that the young rhizomes (horizontal shoots just at the surface/subsurface) are the plant's way of spreading and since they aren't rooted and I don't want spreading, these are freely ripped up or cut off. Is this how you manage the nightmare of wild growth? I can't see that these young rhizomes contribute to the current or future health of the plant.

I just use shears and cut close to the ground. Here is an interesting read that I just started reading. Find the one on pruning hop crown.
https://docs.google.com/folderview?usp=sharing&id=0B7aNkuU_q8iEREdBMkxWcFI2THM
I guess I hadn't thought about doing a crown pruning. I've just cut the bines close to the ground.

Chinook is mid to late for maturity. Maybe the cut back was late and limited yield. Seems like optimal pruning would be in mid April or so even with relatively low bine growth. Could have just been the season too.

Any wild growth I've just cut back on mature plants. It seems they now pretty much stay in one spot. I'm not really sure what I'll do on my new plants. I may train the best four bines and cut everything else or just cut everything outside the designated growing area.
 
Thanks for sharing that Brewcat! Good article. Nice library. I guess this cutting of the crown is something I "accidentially" did with tilling over the top of mine years ago. Maybe I should do it again. :) This seems to say that ripping up the surface rhizomes and cutting back is going to be good, not bad, and that one shouldn't worry about physical damage to our dear plants. Ripping up all those easily accessed surface rhizomes will certainly help cut down on the explosion of wild growth spreading from the base. And help control spreading.

I attached a pic of a 3yr old plant I dug out last spring. That is most of it. This went down about 18". Cutting at 5cm (as mentioned in that article for a "deep" cutting) is only about 2". It is clear that there is a huge mass down there and I know from trying to eradicate some unwanted plants that you aren't going to kill them easily.

Thanks again!

DSCF0024.jpg
 
That library has some really good info.

Grower Notes: Spring 2016 is another one that has some interesting stuff on trimming. It is within the section: Cutting, Mowing, and Carping of Hop Crowns and Bines

But read the whole thing because it gives good ideas on growing hops.
 
That library has some really good info.

Grower Notes: Spring 2016 is another one that has some interesting stuff on trimming. It is within the section: Cutting, Mowing, and Carping of Hop Crowns and Bines

But read the whole thing because it gives good ideas on growing hops.

That is very good stuff. I'm definitely getting a grip on this hop management with reading these articles. That Grower Notes article puts several management practices in perspective - why the cutting back is done and how it is different from the "carping" of the crowns.

I'm not going to try to emulate commercial practices, but I will start by getting them under control. I had a B&D session with my hops this afternoon - explored the nature of their rhizomes and removed all I could find "hand deep". A lot of mass there that would otherwise have given rise to nightmare growth. Couple of pics attached. One is a Nugget with rhizomes exposed in one sector. I marked on the photo the center of the crown they are radiating from. All of these were pulled up and cut off near the crown and I worked around the plant and got them all, and 22 other plants the same. Made quite a pile or rhizomes. This is definitely going to be better.

DSCF0640a_Nugget_spring_rhizomes.jpg


Pruned_Rhyzomes.jpg
 
Check out the picture about half way down this article: http://allaboutbeer.com/canadian-red-vine/. That's all the rhizomes exposed on half of a Redvine crown. That variety is excessively vigorous, but you can see that the rhizomes radiate out from the crown like spokes on a bicycle wheel. Each year after they're established, I generally dig a trench all the way around and cut back any rhizomes that have formed over the course of the year. And you really don't have to go too deep as they pretty won't really go much deeper than about 6 inches. Actually seeing what's down under the ground really helps to put what goes on above ground in perspective.
 
Wow! Excellent discussion!

I have about 100 second year plants...and they are shooting up like crazy...some over 3' long...some have 5-6 shoots, others have over 20...all look healthy...so my question is, and I have already cut back the bull shoots, which were very obvious....is it okay to cut back the shoots, but leave about 3-4 nodes on each shoot, thus allowing the photosynthesis to continue, and then when the next wave of shoots pop (hopefully)..train those? I just can't imagine hacking back everything to the ground...

My 3 year old 15 mystery hops are my science project for the year, I cut them back to the ground with my battery powered hedge trimmer....we'll see how they do this year. They were the first to emerge about a month ago and were all over 2' tall/long. I am at lat 51 degN and we have good long hot summers....it's been 24-29C here for a week...way early for that kind of heat...all looks good though...even the heritage hops are doing well...all 60 of them.

Cheers
 
At this point, it's not about photosynthesis. All that crazy growth is being fueled by the carbohydrate accumulation that occurred last fall before the plants went dormant.

"I just can't imagine hacking back everything to the ground . . . ". You actually can and I did it quite a few years ago in order to buy some time as I was working really crazy busy hours on end and didn't have the time to devote to each plant, so they got beheaded for a second time. They all did come back and for the most part, did well. You have to watch though, as certain varieties are a little less hardy than others and you may set those back a little. Just chalk it up to experience and take good notes.
 
Hi kilohertz,

"I just can't imagine hacking back everything to the ground . . . ".

=============
I am editing my post with this notice and will repost a corrected version at the current end of this thread. I will leave this post intact other than these notes, but be aware of this correction.

Reason for edit: I had the daylength thing wrong - I based the long-day comments on the "Grower Notes 2016" document B-Hoppy had shared (pg 22 - "It takes between four to six weeks for a cut hop to recover and regrow the 12 internode leaf
sets needed to accept the long day length signal that initiates burr formation." Hops are short day plants and are induced to flower in SHORT days before or after the longest days of mid-summer; this is from several scientific publications listed in the original post of the "Inducing Hops to Flower" thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=471404). There you will also read that it is not just 10-12 nodes, but the node # required for floral induction is variety-dependent. And, for completeness, if the days are too short the plants will begin to go into their dormant phase - although this is not a problem with field grown hops in our normal seasons. I have seen on my own hops the appearance of visible flower buds before the solstice - and since visible buds mean floral induction quite some time before, it is clear that the hops were induced to flower in shorter days earlier in the spring. Let me also point out that no one is putting hard numbers on precise day lengths, photoperiod, (actually night lengths does the magic...) or node number since this does seem to vary by variety. And I am not sure (since people don't make it clear) if the node number requirement includes the formed nodes (primordia) in the compressed shoot apex, or visible nodes with expanding; it is probably this visible nodes since field researchers can't be counting the hidden primordial nodes.

Simple fact is we often see the first unopened flower buds around mid-June to the solstice (in the northern latitudes; earlier if growth starts earlier in the southlands), but they were induced to flower and started making those buds much earlier in the spring. That "asparagus" looking shoot is highly compressed and already has many leaf and bud primordia buried down in the apical region invisible when just looking at the outside. Here is a link of a section of a shoot apex (this is not hops, but illustrates the point of compressed shoots and primordia):
http://www.vcbio.science.ru.nl/publ..._051-100/PL0073_512zElodeaStemTipOverview.jpg

So if you are cutting back to control the size of the mature plant, or to try to set a harvest date, you need to have "sufficient" regrowth before approaching the longest days, else flower induction may be delayed until post-solstice shorter days and make maturation quite late or reduce the crop. I can say that I have cut back Chinook, Cascade, Nugget, Willamette at my location in Massachusetts on May5 (2015) and got "normal" growth and flowering and crop (picked 3rd week of August), but smaller plants than un-cut plants in previous years.

=============================================

This discussion has been great. That literature b-hoppy shared has helped me understand a lot about hops growing. I hadn't found a complete discussion of this in any one place. For me, it is important to understand WHY we do something since that informs us of how it should be done in other conditions. I'm going to summarize some takeaways I've gained from this discussion and that literature and maybe people can edit the summary so we get it close to right and as simple as possible.

First of all and very important, hops culture will depend on your location (latitude, climate) and the vigor of the variety you are dealing with. Hops will tend to produce the most crop on the upper part of the growth. A hop that can start growing early in the season (early spring, mild climate, long days) will produce a bine that will get very large, possibly overgrowing the available trellis and drooping over and getting thick and tangled, and this will be hard to harvest and the thick, tangled growth may encourage disease. A very vigorous variety in excellent soil conditions will have more tendency in this direction than a less vigorous variety. You will need to observe how your hops grow in your soils and location and adjust any cutting back to fit your situation.

The spring and early season management can be determined by backing up from the end of season. You want the cones mature and dry before the season gets too advanced. In the Northeast the season rapidly gets cool and damp toward the end of August. I like to get my cones mature and picked around mid-August. Other locations will be different. But from experience, start with that general harvest date and back up to determine when to do any final cut-back (if it is needed at all!).

You want your trellis to be about 20' high and you want the mature hops to fill the trellis at the end of season. Hops will tend to overgrow anything smaller and this is why most commercial trellis systems are about this height.

You want the bines to have 12+ nodes by the solstice; this number is needed to allow floral induction. The bines will be florally induced in the long days around mid-summer. It takes about 4-6 weeks for a cut back bine to reach 12+ nodes and be sensitive to the long days (short nights!). (? variety, vigor, microenvironment dependent). The bines will continue to elongate and will begin producing flowers and sidearms at the leaf nodes for about another month and will fill out the trellis without overgrowing (? based on vigor of plants).

The flowers take about a month from burr stage until cones are mature and ready to pick (variable, by variety and environment). Since the flowering occurs over some time (earlier on lower nodes/side arms, later in the upper regions) you want to use a date that is the average for the bulk of the crop for that variety in your location.

A streamline summary:
Cut back (if needed, last time) 4-6 weeks before the solstice so that you have 12+ nodes by the solstice.
Yes, you can cut back to the ground (if needed). They will grow. Established hops are very difficult to kill.
Hops will continue to grow, make sidearms, and flower for about a month after the solstice.
The burrs will mature to cones and ripen in the month after flowering.
Adjust this for your location and climate, variety and vigor.

And don't neglect to prune the rhizomes of the hops in in the second year and beyond. The rhizomes are not the roots. If you study the shoots from the hop crown you see that the ones at the center grow mostly upright, while the ones at the periphery will tend to be almost horizontal. There are even ones you don't see that ARE horizontal and at/below the surface; these are the developing rhizomes. The rhizomes are a means of the hop plant to spread itself and this serves no purpose to producing a hops crop. Study the hops plant and learn it's ways. The rhizomes start in early to mid season of established plants. If you have light, organic soil it is easy to find them in mid/late summer - white, succulent, horizontally growing "shoots" that are in the upper few inches of the soil, pushing up an emergent shoot at the outer end. The roots are tan and will have fibrous roots; don't prune these. The rhizomes will send up shoots at their tips, and eventually the white succulent young rhizome shoot becomes tougher and will develop fibrous roots, and this would establish a competing and choking new crown. The rhizomes can be removed at any time, but it may enough to do it every spring in established plants. You are not hurting your plant to cut it back (as needed) and remove rhizomes, or even root prune beyond a 2 foot radius of the crown. All of this cutting and pruning keeps the plant vigorous and able to produce the crop you wish to produce.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the info everyone...I decided to go for it and went out with the hedge trimmers to do more trimming and didn't take them to the ground, but took off everything that was over 12" tall, leaving the small shoots that were already poking out. I reviewed my pictures from past 2 years and found that the 60 plants that went in last year in April were already half way up the trellis by mid May, so my thoughts are if they are starting out earlier this year, I'll keep 'em grounded until the end of April and then train first week of May.

Good news was that as I trimmed I also weeded the crown area and found tons of shoots under the soil, so they are all happy and healthy.

Cheers
 
I did not cut mine back as I should, but it is the second year here in the Arizona desert and I wanted to see how they do. Currently some bines are over 13 ft., and hops as big as my thumb. Seeing this is a good thing, next year I will triple my hop garden, and build a better trellis. Also hiking this weekend I found more wild hops growing, and I hope to collect some this year.
 
I did not cut mine back as I should, but it is the second year here in the Arizona desert and I wanted to see how they do. Currently some bines are over 13 ft., and hops as big as my thumb. Seeing this is a good thing, next year I will triple my hop garden, and build a better trellis. Also hiking this weekend I found more wild hops growing, and I hope to collect some this year.

Where you get early warm Spring there in the SW, you are seeing something much different than many of us in the north experience and it is very interesting! Tell us more!

If you have hop cones as big as your thumb, they must have flowered at about the equinox (?) or before? If they flowered (burr stage) around the equinox, they were induced to flower much earlier, in much shorter days. This seems to go against all I've read about the necessary long-day photoperiod requirement for floral initiation. So how does this fit with the long-day photoperiod requirement that I keep reading about?

Do you (or anyone else) have any ideas about this? For me it is just of academic interest - would just like to understand this better.
 
I have heard somewhere that when you have an early crop that you can often harvest and get a second crop in the same year. At this rate you may well be able to get three. Wow. I chopped mine (second years) back and then forgot about them and fount they were a foot and a half tall this weekend. I trained them and culled back to 4 shoots to grow up the lines.
 
OKay, so I have cut them back, and now the stems that have been cut back, have sprouted double new shoots out of the nodes where the leaves are..and they are growing. Can these be considered viable shoots to train or will they be weak, or have the same traits of the bull shoot, if they were a bull shoot to start with, hard to tell...

Should I only train new shoots from the crown? If no new shoots show up by my training date, should I use the new growth from the cut shoots?

Thanks Obiwans..
 
". . . now the stems have been cut back, have sprouted double new shoots . . .", this is what happens when you don't cut them back all the way to the crown. If you leave a node in tact, you'll have twice as many as you started out with. These can be trained without worrying about them being bull shoots. The other option is to cut these all the way back and wait for some deeper buds to send up shoots to train. I don't know how healthy your plants are so I wouldn't recommend cutting them all the way back and end up having you miraculously killing one of them, haha. You could experiment and cut one back all the way and train another one from the split shoots you have and compare the difference at harvest. It's always best to learn from your own doings, at least it is for me.
 
Thanks Bob!

Appreciate all the help here and the forums in general. I'll try your suggestions....as I now have 135 plants to play with. :ban: Planted the last 5 Galenas on Monday and now all the holes are filled and rows are complete. As I was walking around the hop yard last night, I had a bizarre thought...it would be so easy to double the size of the yard by just taking 1 rhizome from each plant....scary thought. :drunk: It's taken me 3 years to get where I am already, I probably have enough work for one guy to manage, with my son's occasional help.

Cheers
 
This is a correction of post #56 of this thread. I edited that post with a correction statement and said I would re-post, so here it is.

Reason for edit: I had the daylength thing wrong - I based the long-day comments on the "Grower Notes 2016.pdf" (Great Lakes Hops) document B-Hoppy had shared (pg 22 - "It takes between four to six weeks for a cut hop to recover and regrow the 12 internode leaf sets needed to accept the long day length signal that initiates burr formation." I think this is incorrect. Hops are short day plants and are induced to flower in SHORT days before or after the longest days of mid-summer; this is from several scientific publications listed in the original post of the "Inducing Hops to Flower" thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=471404). There you will also read that it is not just 10-12 nodes, but the node # required for floral induction is variety-dependent. And, for completeness, if the days are too short the plants will begin to go into their dormant phase - although this is not a problem with field grown hops in our normal seasons. I have seen on my own hops the appearance of visible flower buds before the solstice - and since visible buds mean floral induction quite some time before, it is clear that the hops were induced to flower in shorter days earlier in the spring. Let me also point out that no one is putting hard numbers on precise day lengths, photoperiod, (actually night lengths does the magic...) or node number since this does seem to vary by variety. And I am not sure (since people don't make it clear) if the node number requirement includes the formed nodes (primordia) in the compressed shoot apex, or visible nodes with expanding; it is probably this visible nodes since field researchers can't be counting the hidden primordial nodes.

Simple fact is we often see the first unopened flower buds around mid-June to the solstice (in the northern latitudes; earlier if growth starts earlier in the southlands), but they were induced to flower and started making those buds much earlier in the spring. That "asparagus" looking shoot is highly compressed and already has many leaf and bud primordia buried down in the apical region invisible when just looking at the outside. Here is a link of a section of a shoot apex (this is not hops, but illustrates the point of compressed shoots and primordia):
http://www.vcbio.science.ru.nl/publi...ipOverview.jpg

So if you are cutting back to control the size of the mature plant, or to try to set a harvest date, you need to have "sufficient" regrowth before approaching the longest days, else flower induction may be delayed until post-solstice shorter days and make maturation quite late or reduce the crop. I can say that I have cut back Chinook, Cascade, Nugget, Willamette at my location in Massachusetts on May5 (2015) and got "normal" growth and flowering and crop (picked 3rd week of August), but smaller plants than un-cut plants in previous years.

=============================================
Edited post, hopefully correct...
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This discussion has been great. That literature b-hoppy shared has helped me understand a lot about hops growing. I hadn't found a complete discussion of this in any one place. For me, it is important to understand WHY we do something since that informs us of how it should be done in other conditions. I'm going to summarize some takeaways I've gained from this discussion and that literature and maybe people can edit the summary so we get it close to right and as simple as possible.

First of all and very important, hops culture will depend on your location (latitude, climate) and the vigor of the variety you are dealing with. Hops will tend to produce the most crop on the upper part of the growth. A hop that can start growing early in the season (early spring, mild climate, long days) will produce a bine that will get very large, possibly overgrowing the available trellis and drooping over and getting thick and tangled, and this will be hard to harvest and the thick, tangled growth may encourage disease. A very vigorous variety in excellent soil conditions will have more tendency in this direction than a less vigorous variety. You will need to observe how your hops grow in your soils and location and adjust any cutting back to fit your situation.

The spring and early season management can be determined by backing up from the end of season. You want the cones mature and dry before the season gets too advanced. In the Northeast the season rapidly gets cool and damp toward the end of August. I like to get my cones mature and picked around mid-August. Other locations will be different. But from experience, start with that general harvest date and back up to determine when to do any final cut-back (if it is needed at all!).

You want your trellis to be about 20' high and you want the mature hops to fill the trellis at the end of season. Hops will tend to overgrow anything smaller and this is why most commercial trellis systems are about this height.

You want the bines to have 12+ nodes by the solstice*; a minimum number of nodes (variety dependent!) is needed to allow floral induction during the short days before or after the solstice. Hops are sensitive to photoperiod - day, or night length. The bines will be florally induced in the short days before/after the long days of mid-summer. It takes about 6-8 weeks for a cut back bine to reach sufficient size (node#) and be sensitive to the short days (long nights!). (? variety, vigor, microenvironment dependent). The bines will continue to elongate and will begin producing flowers and sidearms at the leaf nodes for about another month and will fill out the trellis without overgrowing (? based on vigor of plants).
* This is from post #51 of this thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=232819&page=6); Also see references in the original post of this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=471404

The flowers take about a month from burr stage until cones are mature and ready to pick (variable, by variety and environment). Since the flowering occurs over some time (earlier on lower nodes/side arms, later in the upper regions) you want to use a date that is the average for the bulk of the crop for that variety in your location.

People report getting 2 harvests in places where the growing season is sufficiently long.

A streamline summary for the Northern US:
1) Cut back (if needed, last time) 6-8 weeks before the solstice so that you have sufficient nodes produced before the solstice. Yes, you can cut back to the ground (if needed). They will grow. Established hops are very difficult to kill.
2) Hops will continue to grow, make sidearms, and flower (burr stage) for about a month after the solstice.
3) The burrs will mature to cones and ripen in about a month after burr stage.
4) Adjust this for your location and climate, variety and vigor.

And don't neglect to prune the rhizomes of the hops in in the second year and beyond. The rhizomes are not the roots. If you study the shoots from the hop crown you see that the ones at the center grow mostly upright, while the ones at the periphery will tend to be almost horizontal. There are even ones you don't see that ARE horizontal and at/below the surface; these are the developing rhizomes. The rhizomes are a means of the hop plant to spread itself and this serves no purpose to producing a hops crop. Study the hops plant and learn it's ways. The rhizomes start in early to mid season of established plants. If you have light, organic soil it is easy to find them in mid/late summer - white, succulent, horizontally growing "shoots" that are in the upper few inches of the soil, pushing up an emergent shoot at the outer end. The roots are tan and will have fibrous roots; don't prune these. The rhizomes will send up shoots at their tips, and eventually the white succulent young rhizome shoot becomes tougher and will develop fibrous roots, and this would establish a competing and choking new crown. The rhizomes can be removed at any time, but it may enough to do it every spring in established plants. You are not hurting your plant to cut it back (as needed) and remove rhizomes, or even root prune beyond a 2 foot radius of the crown. All of this cutting and pruning keeps the plant vigorous and able to produce the crop you wish to produce.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
 
I cut the first growth for the first time this year today May 11th and was wondering if I trimmed too late in the game. I trimmed all plants back to only leave the shoots that are shorter than 12". All plants being 4th year Cascade, 2nd year Willamette and 2nd year Columbus. I have a first year Chinook as well but will not be trimming back. I live in Colorado literally on the 40th parallel. I trimmed off what looked like 50 shoots off Cascade and some of them were 4' or longer. The other 2 were more tamed. Looking back at my records I did my first trimming last year on April 22nd and trained the tallest bines from that trimming on that day. Reading more about it now, I probably should have waited to train them and kept the smallest bines. Could have been why I didn't get a bunch of hops that year. They were all transplants from a buddy and my first year growing hops. I'm still learning.

I'm just worried that I messed up and shouldn't have trimmed back this late in the game.

This thread has helped out a ton! Any info, wether good or bad, would be helpful.

Cheers!
 
What it sounds like is that of your first big flush of growth, you cut back the big ones and left a few smaller ones to train. If this is correct, you're good to go.
 
What it sounds like is that of your first big flush of growth, you cut back the big ones and left a few smaller ones to train. If this is correct, you're good to go.

I knew I could count on you B-Hoppy! Your comments have been very helpful on this thread. Thanks for helping!:mug:
 
Well here we are nearing the solstice and I have noticed very slow growth on some of my plants, probably 1/3 of the 135. I haven't had the time to tend to the yard in the last month and as a result, there are lots of new shoots that have grown out from the crown and laying on the ground, some of them are 4' or more. I am wondering if I should salvage these shoots and get them trained on the plants that are only 4-6' tall, or cut them back and hope the short trained bines take off. I am thinking that I may be able to get a decent harvest if I keep them all, even though they are short. More bines, more cones.

Or am I going down the wrong path and should cut all the shoots on the ground and hope the existing bines take off up the rest of the way.

Your thoughts?

Cheers

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My sense is that with the long days you have there those trained bines will continue growing and fill out quite a bit to make a crop. I think that the untrained wild growth at the base has probably sapped some of the strength from the trained ones, but that is past and you are looking forward. I don't think training more bines up the strings will accomplish much - would get too crowded; but I do know that late growth can make a small crop - I would just worry about too much crowding for light/air if you do that, and they may not mature at the same time; take away that basal competition and they will extend and fill out yet. If they were mine, I'd probably prune things up at the base - train up more only if there are few on the strings already. I can't tell from a distance, but maybe your soil is sandy/gravel? (I'm just guessing from the terrain and vegetation I see). They might benefit from a shot of nitrogen about now and that would support the further growth and flowering.
 
Thanks Toadhall,

As soon as it stops raining...arg 3 days now...I will go out and make a closer assessment of each plant and either train a few more of the shorter ones, or just cut all the ground shoots right back. Agree that the ones on the ground are probably drawing away resources that could go into the trained bines. I reviewed last years pictures and found that July 8th they were about where they are now, and by Aug. were at the wire, so there is still hope for the shorties. I will get out the 5-1-1 fishalizer and give them a small shot of 46-0-0 granular as well. I put on a couple of shovel fulls of horse poop on each crown last fall and may go around and put on some more. It's about 5 years old and well rotted. Yes, pretty sandy/gravelly soil, although in years past (15 or so) this area was a horse coral.

I'll let you know how its going in another few weeks.

cheers
 
Conditions here have been pretty good so far. I did have some bine breakage in some strong winds in early June, and birds like to perch on the uppermost shoots of the slanted wires of my teepees so they have broken a few bine tips. I'm still waiting to see the results of cutting back. On 4/29 I cut back all my plants except a few to use as a comparison for un-cut; all were growing well before cutting back, but varied a bit by variety. After cutting back they were a bit variable in starting regrowth, some started immediately with new shoots, and some took 3 weeks to show new buds, so the regrowth is going to be a bit hard to interpret with only 22 plants total. Those slow to regrow are mostly shorter, but some of the cutback plants caught up with the cut mates and developmentally seem at the same stage now. Some of the cut ones reached the 22' pole tops 6/15; some on the angled wires are a few feet away, but probably about the same actual bine length (allowing for the hypotenuse length...). Cut or uncut they seemed to start producing sidearms at about the same time, and I am seeing flower buds emerging in the axils of both groups since about June 7-10. Guess I have to wait and see about differences in flower density, distribution, crop size, cone size, etc.

This was the time of year we got rain and warmth last summer that set off some Downy Mildew on the more sensitive plants (Santiam, Willamette) and so far that has not hit and all are clean. Maybe it will be a good season, but there is SO much time for disasters yet :)

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I honestly don't know the science behind it since I am not a biologist. My guess would be that the first shoots put the rhizome in 'grow mode' and whatever energy is gained through photosynthesis from those first shoots is stored in the root making the root bigger to support the shoots that you cut off. The root doesn't know that those original shoots are cut off so it supplies more nutrients to the next shoots that grow. I may be completely full of crap but that growing process is the simplified version that i have been told for years. My degree is in history so science is not my thing. Maybe we need one of those fancy hop farmers to chime in.
I've heard it's because the first shoots are hollow, and subsequent shoots are not. So they can support more yield.
 
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