Crystal Hops in Stout?

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Clint Yeastwood

Clint Yeastwood

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The stout I made the other day was tragically overcarbonated due to my failure to label gas disconnects, but now it's corrected enough to drink, and I am loving it. It's like someone made a low-powered derivative of Old Rasputin to compete with things like Murphy's.

I'm not crazy about the hops, though. I used Kent Goldings because that's what my old recipe said to do. I am thinking I would like to keep using them for bittering but use a lot of Crystal for flavor and aroma. Has anyone here tried Crystal in stout? I seem to be drawn to Crystal.

I think it also needs an alcohol boost, but not a lot. I don't want to add a lot of grain, though. It's okay if the body is the same or slightly lighter. What if I dump table sugar in it next time? I would like to end up somewhere around 6.5% ABV so I'll know I drank a beer and not malta. Beersmith thinks 12 ounces will do it.

Right now it's a session beer.
 
This stuff is so good. Breaks my heart I ruined several days of drinking pleasure with that fumble.

I don't know too much about noble hops, but my memories and limited knowledge make me think of spices more than anything.
 
I've only used Crystal hops once; in a lager that is in the fermenter about ready to bottle. I really liked the aroma from it, I haven't tasted it yet, but I think I'm gonna be glad that I bought 2 pounds of it last year.

Is a stout supposed to have much hop flavor and aroma? I didn't think so, but it's not a style I brew. I've done a porter a few times, and I usually use Willamette for finishing that but I don't use much. But if you like Crystal and think it would be good in a stout go for it.

You can certainly add sugar to beer to boost the alcohol, but I wouldn't add much. I've used sugar in a cream ale before and it seemed to thin the beer out at 5% as much as rice or corn does at 20%. (that's what I wanted, I was just surprised that it did that much)
 
Old Rasputin changed my frame, outlook, way of life, and everything, and it seems like it has a lot of aroma hops. I'm not sure, though, because there are so many other reasons it could have a rich smell. I think I have seen someone claiming Cascade is involved.

I don't want to copy it, but it gave me the idea I could move beyond Kent Goldings.

I don't think I want esters, for once. Maybe this is a good candidate for pressure fermenting.

I guess I could add more Maris Otter and skip the sugar. I don't want the stout to be any thicker. It's practically a milkshake now.

Hard to say. I don't think I can go wrong.
 
I'll bet your stout is as good or better. I think Guinness is just an honest working man's beer designed before people really became demanding, so it's not hard to beat now that everyone is a brewer.

If I can beat Guinness as a total hack brewer, there must be dozens of people here who do much, much better.
 
Way back when I first started brewing in the late 80’s, I had no local store. I used table sugar instead of corn sugar in the recipe and for carbonation. It gives beer a cidery aftertaste, that’s really not so good. You can get by with table sugar in wine; I do it all the time because wine is a complete fermentation. With beer, you’ll still have a little of that sugar still hanging around and you will taste it, and probably won’t like it.

You might want to add a little corn sugar for the boost, Ive done that, but adding table sugar should be on that other thread; “Don’t do that”.

Cheers 🍻
 
Closet Fermenter said:
Way back when I first started brewing in the late 80’s, I had no local store. I used table sugar instead of corn sugar in the recipe and for carbonation. It gives beer a cidery aftertaste, that’s really not so good. You can get by with table sugar in wine; I do it all the time because wine is a complete fermentation. With beer, you’ll still have a little of that sugar still hanging around and you will taste it, and probably won’t like it.

You might want to add a little corn sugar for the boost, Ive done that, but adding table sugar should be on that other thread; “Don’t do that”.

Cheers 🍻
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you are correct, used in quantities above 20 percent Cider flavors are likely , But 12 0z in a stout and if he boils it along with an acidic wort he's basically gonna make invert sugar , yes ? a common adjunct of UK beers.
And full disclosure I was half in the bag last night🍺 , brewing my stout when I commented , I used corn sugar not table sugar in the past but I still think he can get away with using cane sugar in a big beer to lighten it up.
 
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Adding sugar, with no other changes, will not thin the beer. It will have no affect on FG, it will merely increase ABV. You've got to replace some of the malt with sugar to adjust FG down.
 
Closet Fermenter said:
Way back when I first started brewing in the late 80’s, I had no local store. I used table sugar instead of corn sugar in the recipe and for carbonation. It gives beer a cidery aftertaste, that’s really not so good. You can get by with table sugar in wine; I do it all the time because wine is a complete fermentation. With beer, you’ll still have a little of that sugar still hanging around and you will taste it, and probably won’t like it.

You might want to add a little corn sugar for the boost, Ive done that, but adding table sugar should be on that other thread; “Don’t do that”.

Cheers 🍻
Click to expand...
When I started brewing back in the late 80's (then I took about 20 years off for some reason) I used table sugar just for priming. I often got that dreaded "cidery" taste and I attributed it to the sugar because that's what I read. And it *was* very similar to the taste of the old "1 can of Blue Ribbon malt syrup and 1 syrup can of sugar" beer recipes from the 70's and probably earlier. But in hindsight, it was stale LME causing the problem. I got a good deal on a 30 pound jug of LME but I only used about 3 pounds at a time and it slowly got older and older and more oxidized. 🙁 I don't remember, but that might even be why I quit brewing.

I still wouldn't go over 15 or 20% table sugar, and then only when I designed the recipe around it. (strong Belgian ales, not American malt liquor) I've done 10% a couple of times.
 
bellhp said:
Im brewing a stout right now ... I bittered with magnum and am finishing with fuggles.
If you want more alcohol and your beer is a milkshake now please do add sugar. It used to be half my grain bill back in the day.🤣
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I have a 1.090 stout planned for next month. It will be bittered with 2 oz. of Magnum at 60 mins and 2 oz. of Fuggles at 20 mins for 67 ibu's. Going to also add 3 lbs. of dark DME to help bump the abv.
 
z-bob said:
it was stale LME causing the problem
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or perhaps poor quality dry yeast.


Speculation: if "cidery" is an off flavor from 'too much' sugar, it should be easy-peasy to consistently get that flavor by rebrewing a complete recipe that claims to create it.

eta: that being said, if sugar is above about 20%, the beverage may be more like a bragget - and different review criteria for the recipe and the flavors may be appropriate.
 
Right now, I think I'll put some Crystal in there and leave it at that. I'll order some grain so I can get a new stout in the fermenter in a few days.

I have been gathering info on updated hopping methods, and I am inclined to believe a 60-minute boil is a waste of time and hops, so instead of boiling Kent Goldings for 60 and 30, I will boil Kent Goldings for 30 and steep some Crystal at the end. I'll use hop bags and remove everything before fermenting.

Because all the hops in this beer were boiled at least 30 minutes, I think nearly all the aroma must be from the yeast and grain.
 
I think you will "waste" even more hops trying to use a low alpha hop (both Kent Goldings and Crystal are pretty low alpha) and 30 minute boil, to give you the same bittering that a 60 minute boil would give you. Maybe try something like Magnum at 30 minutes to give you the desired bitterness, and then your Goldings and Crystal for mostly just flavor and aroma.
 
I've been watching a dude named David Heath, and he says long boils are a waste of time and flavor. Claims they're actually based on the need to get DMS out of wort. He says malt has changed, so it's no longer necessary to boil forever.



This video explains why traditional beer brewing times were as long as 60 or 90 minutes and why the modern 30 minute boil time is all you need these days.
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I agree with you completely, I was just saying you will lose some bittering from your hops if you only boil them half as long. Therefore, you might want to use a neutral high alpha hop (like Magnum) to boost the IBU's, otherwise, you'll need to use a LOT more of your lower alpha hops.

Can't hear the video, because my stupid headphones died, maybe the video you linked already addresses that, if so, my apologies.
 
Clint Yeastwood said:
I've been watching a dude named David Heath, and he says long boils are a waste of time and flavor. Claims they're actually based on the need to get DMS out of wort. He says malt has changed, so it's no longer necessary to boil forever.

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Perhaps. But you need to adjust your hop additions accordingly to obtain the same level of bitterness and flavor/aroma as a 60 minute boil. I still boil for 60 minutes and for a 1.090-ish level beer I shoot for a bitterness ratio of 0.750 IBU/SG.
 
Shouldn't any decent IBU calculator do the adjustment for you? And doesn't utilization continue until you get the wort down below ~170 or so?
 
I will definitely do the math.

I plan to use Kent Goldings for bittering because they worked once already. I don't want to change a lot of variables.
 
Last time I used an ounce at 60 and 1.5 ounces at 30. Came out perfect. Do people use Magnum in stout?

Beersmith thinks I'm at 50, but I believe that's wrong. I believe I need to contact the HBS and get the number from the hops they sent. I have the same number I had in my last batch 18 years ago, and I don't think that's correct.
 
BongoYodeler said:
What ibu's are you shooting for? EKG for bittering is going to take a LOT when compared to something like Magnum.
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For instance, I just played with my recipe. I took out the 2 oz of Magnum at 60 mins. and had to replace it with nearly 8 oz of EKG to get to the same ibu level. To me that would be a waste. Magnum is really neutral. I'd prefer to add the flavor hops later rather than waste them as bittering hops.
 
For instance, I just played with my recipe. I took out the 2 oz of Magnum at 60 mins. and had to replace it with nearly 8 oz of EKG to get to the same ibu level. To me that would be a waste. Magnum is really neutral. I'd prefer to add the flavor hops later rather than waste them as bittering hops.
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I think that's right, but brewing is a form of cooking, and one thing I've learned as a cook is to avoid changing multiple variables when trying new things. I can always use Magnum in the future.
 
DBhomebrew said:
And?
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Maybe at the home brew level, 1965 is not "modern"? 🤷‍♀️


The video did spent too much time comparing the "new" approach (positive) to the "old" approach (negative). Setting that aside, ...

The video does a good job of consolidating some current ideas for making 2020-ish hop forward styles.

For the 60 to 30 min hop adjustment, start by adding 30% more hops (for Tinsenth-based estimation). That number (25% or 30%) has been part of forum wisdom for a while (perhaps a couple of generations of "modern" ;)).

More generally, longer boils can add colors (e.g. Evil Twin (yet again)) and flavors (two hour boils for barley wines) that can not be created with other ingredients.

Picking the right boil time for the style / recipe can have positive influence on the beer.
 
bellhp said:
The one I made last night had Magnum @ 60 mins and Fuggles at 10 min. I was going for 40 ibus . It was based on Charlie Papazians " Toad spit stout "
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I tend to bitter my stouts slightly more than I would want fresh. I like to age them a few months and their bitterness will mello out over time.

*And yes, I also bitter most of my beers, including stouts, with Magnum.
 

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