Saison Cottage House Saison

[jkobst]

Hi guys!

Kinda new here but found this recipe and really stoked to giver a go! I wanted to do a side-by-side with two different strains of yeast to see how they differ (WLP 565 and WY3711). I've got a little incubation chamber made out of a freezer to regulate temps, but after reading up on the different yeast strains it sounds like they have pretty different temp needs. Was planning on leaving both carboys in at 68 for 4-5 days before ramping up to 78 over the course of another 4-5 days (~ambient) then take the WY3711 out and ferment in my closet but leave the WLP565 in and increase to 85 for a few weeks. This sound reasonable? Or can the WY3711 handle the hotter temps too?

Cheers!

 

[bolus14]

3711 handles pretty much everything, if you search around the web this strain dries beer out and low temps as well as into the 90's. Some get better ester from the higher temps others I have read don't see a lot of variation, it likely comes down to the timing of when the temps get ramped up.

 

[govner1]

You should not have a problem w/ the 3711 @ higher temps. I've done this recipe a few times w/ 3711 & Belle Saison. After pitching I let it free rise into the 80's. Gives that great Belgian "bubble gum " flavors.

 

[azscoob]

I've fermented this beer in my garage when I lived in AZ... In the summer! The daytime temp in my garage was around 118 if I recall, beer turned out great!!!!

 

[arnobg]

I've fermented this beer in my garage when I lived in AZ... In the summer! The daytime temp in my garage was around 118 if I recall, beer turned out great!!!!

That's incredible!! I'd be curious to know the warmest temperature a Saison was ever fermented at and what it tastes like. Would be a cool Guinness Record.

 

[m00ps]

you guys are making saisons without fermentation temp control??? eww gross

I'll stop now i promise

 

[jkobst]

Awesome thanks guys!

 

[armenianbrewer]

So I've brewed this beer once before, almost to exact specifications except missed my gravity just a tad so had to use some belgian sugar candi to up the abv... however my next question was, I want to brew this again but wanted to take a more "farmhouse" approach to it and use some of the hops i have leftover from other batches... has anyone used other hops in this before? Say maybe falconer's flight?

 

[Shenanigans]

So I've brewed this beer once before, almost to exact specifications except missed my gravity just a tad so had to use some belgian sugar candi to up the abv... however my next question was, I want to brew this again but wanted to take a more "farmhouse" approach to it and use some of the hops i have leftover from other batches... has anyone used other hops in this before? Say maybe falconer's flight?

I subbed the Sorachi Ace with FF and it turned out good.
I have some Sorachi Ace now so next time I will stick to the original recipe and see which I like the best.

However, I have little time and a long "to-brew" list so it might take some time before I get back to this one.

 

[Sippingainteasy]

do you need a starter with this, or will the wyeast take 5 gallons on its own?

 

[armenianbrewer]

I subbed the Sorachi Ace with FF and it turned out good.
I have some Sorachi Ace now so next time I will stick to the original recipe and see which I like the best.

However, I have little time and a long "to-brew" list so it might take some time before I get back to this one.

Great! Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated. I will give FF a try and see how it works out. Did you use the same hopping schedule but just replaced with FF or did you also adjust the amounts to match IBUs?

 

[babaganuj]

do you need a starter with this, or will the wyeast take 5 gallons on its own?

I didn't use a starter and I was at 1.001 within 3 days. 3711 is a beast.

 

[Sippingainteasy]

Thanks

 

[Shenanigans]

Great! Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated. I will give FF a try and see how it works out. Did you use the same hopping schedule but just replaced with FF or did you also adjust the amounts to match IBUs?

It wasn't really necessary to adjust because the Soarchi Ace in the original recipe were 10.5% and my FFs were 10.8% so I just subbed them 1 for 1 i.e. 0.5oz for 0.5oz

 

[Sippingainteasy]

I think I sparged with too much water and didn't account for my lower efficiency. I ended up with 1.056 it smelled and tasted good though.

 

[azscoob]

I think I sparged with too much water and didn't account for my lower efficiency. I ended up with 1.056 it smelled and tasted good though.

You will have a fine beer at any rate, and then we can see if the efficiency can't be improved through a few changes, usually a finer crush on the grain is the best place to start

 

[Pole]

Post thoughts on this batch, as its really dry I'm curious to hear your thoughts! :rockin:

This is fantastic! Despite the low FG, it doesn't come across as feeling really thin. It still feels completely appropriate for the style, and it tastes amazing. This will be a welcomed sipper on the back porch for the remainder of the summer. Aside from having to sub Motueka for the Sorachi Ace, the recipe was followed as posted. Thanks for sharing this wonderful recipe!

 

[azscoob]

This is fantastic! Despite the low FG, it doesn't come across as feeling really thin. It still feels completely appropriate for the style, and it tastes amazing. This will be a welcomed sipper on the back porch for the remainder of the summer. Aside from having to sub Motueka for the Sorachi Ace, the recipe was followed as posted. Thanks for sharing this wonderful recipe!

I'm glad you are enjoying it! I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple, they tend to be better in my opinion, I've seen recipes with a dozen different grains and a load of different hops, I doubt anyone can pick up on the flavour each grain can provide, let alone taste each hop varietal... I think of it like this, take all your Easter egg colors and pour em all into one big cup, tends to turn a funky brownish right? Each color on its own was beautiful, mix a little of just a few together and you get warm purples and whatnot, too many additions and you go all funky and muddy looking, same goes for my recipes.... Just enough to compliment the other ingredients without getting lost in the mess.

A bit rambling but I've been pondering this for a while..

 

[pmaster]

Brewing this again this week-end! Can't wait. Definitely a favorite

 

[lazzlo]

Brewed this a few weeks ago used Sorachi Ace, EKG, and lemon drop.
Added the zest of two lemons to the boil.
Fermented with Belle Saison at ambient temps ( ~74).
Really loving this right now. I will be brewing this again soon.

 

[bolus14]

Brewed this a few weeks ago used Sorachi Ace, EKG, and lemon drop.
Added the zest of two lemons to the boil.
Fermented with Belle Saison at ambient temps ( ~74).
Really loving this right now. I will be brewing this again soon.

What was your hop schedule? Did you get a lot of lemon with the Sorachi and Lemon Drop?

 

[azscoob]

What was your hop schedule? Did you get a lot of lemon with the Sorachi and Lemon Drop?

I'm interested in this as well!

 

[lazzlo]

.5 oz Sorachi Ace FWH
.5 oz EKG 10 min
.5 oz Lemon Drop 10 min
.5 oz Ekg 5 min
.5 oz Lemon Drop 5 min

I also added the zest of 2 lemons @5 min in the boil

I really like this as a base to saison recipe to play with different flavors.
Excellent recipe Azscoob,

 

[lazzlo]

Sorry for the double post, I also forgot to add the pepper to the boil but I think it would work with this hop combo.

 

[govner1]

I've brewed this recipe several times and add the cracked peppercorns to secondary. Very effective.

 

[rwgaro]

Brewed this and recently bottled - can't wait to taste it given how good it was when bottling!

I also split off ~2/3 gallon and added a bottle of "beet beer" to the bottling bucket. The beet beer was a failed past experiment (failed because it was horrifically strong - added beet to a pale ale but unknowingly concentrated it so much that it tasted like liquid concentrated unsweetened beet soda, while looking like carbonated red wine). We tasted different concentrations and settled on a ~6:1 dilution, which adds a touch of earthy beet flavor to the saison (and makes it a nice pink blush color)... Will be cool to taste side by side.

 

[azscoob]

Brewed this and recently bottled - can't wait to taste it given how good it was when bottling!

I also split off ~2/3 gallon and added a bottle of "beet beer" to the bottling bucket. The beet beer was a failed past experiment (failed because it was horrifically strong - added beet to a pale ale but unknowingly concentrated it so much that it tasted like liquid concentrated unsweetened beet soda, while looking like carbonated red wine). We tasted different concentrations and settled on a ~6:1 dilution, which adds a touch of earthy beet flavor to the saison (and makes it a nice pink blush color)... Will be cool to taste side by side.

I judged a beet beer in a homebrew competition once, though it scored very well on all the technical aspects I personally wanted to dump it... I love beets prepared all different ways, but the beet beer was too much, like fizzy purple dirt.

Hopefully this experiment goes well and doesn't make your beer taste like it's got mud in it.

 

[m00ps]

interesting, I just pickled a bunch of beets someone gave me in a 50/50 saison/vinegar solution. Figured this would be the best style for them.

also, side note - too much lemon drop and sorachi will make a pine-sol saison. Ask me how I know. Although, in the recipe above, the sorachi wont add any flavor at all as a bittering addition

 

[Quadrupled]

Brewed this up yesterday and cannot wait to drink!

 

[armenianbrewer]

So I brewed this yesterday to the exact recipe guidelines (this is my 2nd time brewing the cottage saison, the first time I made this was as one of my first couple of all-grain batches way back in ~March and I missed my OG from what I've now determined to be a very poor grain crush from one of the two LHBS near me). The beer was still quite good so I wanted to take another stab at it, and everything went exactly as planned and execution of wort production was perfect, and actually overshot my OG by a few points. But this time I went to pitch the old harvested yeast slurry from my original cottage saison batch... and now about 16 hours in I have zero fermenter activity... I wont be able to buy and pitch new yeast yeast until later tonight which at that point will be around 30 hours post-chill and post-aeration...

Have I ruined this batch? What are the consequences of the above? Higher risk of infection?

 

[IslandLizard]

So I brewed this yesterday to the exact recipe guidelines (this is my 2nd time brewing the cottage saison, the first time I made this was as one of my first couple of all-grain batches way back in ~March and I missed my OG from what I've now determined to be a very poor grain crush from one of the two LHBS near me). The beer was still quite good so I wanted to take another stab at it, and everything went exactly as planned and execution of wort production was perfect, and actually overshot my OG by a few points. But this time I went to pitch the old harvested yeast slurry from my original cottage saison batch... and now about 16 hours in I have zero fermenter activity... I wont be able to buy and pitch new yeast yeast until later tonight which at that point will be around 30 hours post-chill and post-aeration...

Have I ruined this batch? What are the consequences of the above? Higher risk of infection?

Bubbles are not an indication of fermentation. Is this batch in a bucket? They're notorious for leaks around the lid, not showing any bubbles.

That yeast is 5 months old, making a starter would probably have been better. How much slurry did you pitch? Depending on how much trub was mixed in, there may have been plenty viable cells, just taking their time to propagate. Can you look inside the fermentor, there should be a krausen developing by now.

If you decide to pitch new yeast, making a quick starter would be best. Give it 4-6 hours on a stir plate, keeping it warm. Or make a vitality starter for 4 hours with 1-2 quarts of beer from your fermentor.

 

[armenianbrewer]

Bubbles are not an indication of fermentation. Is this batch in a bucket? They're notorious for leaks around the lid, not showing any bubbles.

That yeast is 5 months old, making a starter would probably have been better. How much slurry did you pitch? Depending on how much trub was mixed in, there may have been plenty viable cells, just taking their time to propagate. Can you look inside the fermentor, there should be a krausen developing by now.

If you decide to pitch new yeast, making a quick starter would be best. Give it 4-6 hours on a stir plate, keeping it warm. Or make a vitality starter for 4 hours with 1-2 quarts of beer from your fermentor.

Thanks for your quick response!

I have a mini-brew bucket (stainless steel fermenter) and you're right that airlock / blow off tube is not a pure indicator of fermenter activity but this would be the first time I've had a batch of beer have such a long lag time before anything appeared to be happening (though, I will open it up and look for krausen when I get home from work.

And I tried my best to avoid pitching any of the trub from the yeast slurry, and I primarily scooped out the thick white yeast layer that settled on between the lower trub and the beer/water/liquid above it, which I had carefully poured off and just tried my best to scoop in the white yeasty layer.

And thanks for your input! I will see what the conditions are when I get home, as maybe you're right there's just a very long lag phase and the yeast cells are taking their time propagating. I will see if I can do either the stir plate (4-6 hour with new yeast) or a vitality starter with actual produced wort (which I probably should have done to begin with).

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for your quick response!

I have a mini-brew bucket (stainless steel fermenter) and you're right that airlock / blow off tube is not a pure indicator of fermenter activity but this would be the first time I've had a batch of beer have such a long lag time before anything appeared to be happening (though, I will open it up and look for krausen when I get home from work.

And I tried my best to avoid pitching any of the trub from the yeast slurry, and I primarily scooped out the thick white yeast layer that settled on between the lower trub and the beer/water/liquid above it, which I had carefully poured off and just tried my best to scoop in the white yeasty layer.

And thanks for your input! I will see what the conditions are when I get home, as maybe you're right there's just a very long lag phase and the yeast cells are taking their time propagating. I will see if I can do either the stir plate (4-6 hour with new yeast) or a vitality starter with actual produced wort (which I probably should have done to begin with).

Just sanitize that lid and rim area well before lifting the lid. I hope a thick krausen is waiting to greet you.

You did the right thing with the yeast, using mostly the white layer on top. Any yeast that's more than 3-4 weeks old goes into a starter here. I think it really helps shortening the lag phase. I'm now systematically overbuilding starters in an effort to reduce reusing yeast slurries too much. I ran into some weird issues experiencing very low flocculation after a few generations, even with yeasts that normally drop like a brick (e.g., WY1968). Pitching old trubby slurry never appealed to me.

Are you using WY3711? It probably won't hurt to pick up a new pack just in case, if the brewstore is on your way home. But there are better, more character yielding, Saison yeasts...

 

[armenianbrewer]

Just sanitize that lid and rim area well before lifting the lid. I hope a thick krausen is waiting to greet you.

You did the right thing with the yeast, using mostly the white layer on top. Any yeast that's more than 3-4 weeks old goes into a starter here. I think it really helps shortening the lag phase. I'm now systematically overbuilding starters in an effort to reduce reusing yeast slurries too much. I ran into some weird issues experiencing very low flocculation after a few generations, even with yeasts that normally drop like a brick (e.g., WY1968). Pitching old trubby slurry never appealed to me.

Are you using WY3711? It probably won't hurt to pick up a new pack just in case, if the brewstore is on your way home. But there are better, more character yielding, Saison yeasts...

Will do on all of the above! Learning a lot from your responses, so it's much appreciated.

And yes, I'm using 3711. I could though, go with another yeast strain for this saison that does yield better character. I remember there's a post on here somewhere with someone combining and comparing the various different yeasts. It was a huge thread. Which would you personally recommend if my LHBS doesn't have 3711 on hand?

 

[IslandLizard]

Will do on all of the above! Learning a lot from your responses, so it's much appreciated.

And yes, I'm using 3711. I could though, go with another yeast strain for this saison that does yield better character. I remember there's a post on here somewhere with someone combining and comparing the various different yeasts. It was a huge thread. Which would you personally recommend if my LHBS doesn't have 3711 on hand?

Boulevard doesn't even use a Saison yeast for their Tank 7, although a great beer, it's also not very saisonish. But their Brett Saison is among my favorites.

If you want to stick with WYeast, WY3724 is very nice, but tends to stall high (1.020s) and then takes 3-6 weeks to finish out nice and low with some TLC (or harsh language). WY3726 (a PC item) is a great replacement for 3724 without having the mid life crisis, but not available unless it's in their PC release cycle.

On their PC list right now is Wyeast 3031-PC Saison-Brett Blend. Now that wakes me up. You'll probably got to special order it through your brew store, as most never stock the great PC stuff. It's available till the end of August, so you need to hurry. Or mail order, but with the hot weather that can be a real toss up.

I've been using ECY08, Saison Brasserie the past year and more recently ECY03, the (Fantôme) Bretted version of that. I really love both, with a special nod to the 03 of course, giving it ample time. I ferment these lowish and slowish. It's like pineapple juice that way.

There are plenty others from other (liquid) yeast suppliers, we have a great choice now. Even Belle Saison (dry) is quite respectable, and loves it hot (up to 90-95F!).

 

[OddBrew]

@azscoob: Just want to write quickly to say thanks for sharing the recipe. This was my 3rd all grain brew. I drank my first bottle this past Sunday and I'm quite happy with the results.

Cheers!

 

[armenianbrewer]

Boulevard doesn't even use a Saison yeast for their Tank 7, although a great beer, it's also not very saisonish. But their Brett Saison is among my favorites.

If you want to stick with WYeast, WY3724 is very nice, but tends to stall high (1.020s) and then takes 3-6 weeks to finish out nice and low with some TLC (or harsh language). WY3726 (a PC item) is a great replacement for 3724 without having the mid life crisis, but not available unless it's in their PC release cycle.

On their PC list right now is Wyeast 3031-PC Saison-Brett Blend. Now that wakes me up. You'll probably got to special order it through your brew store, as most never stock the great PC stuff. It's available till the end of August, so you need to hurry. Or mail order, but with the hot weather that can be a real toss up.

I've been using ECY08, Saison Brasserie the past year and more recently ECY03, the (Fantôme) Bretted version of that. I really love both, with a special nod to the 03 of course, giving it ample time. I ferment these lowish and slowish. It's like pineapple juice that way.

There are plenty others from other (liquid) yeast suppliers, we have a great choice now. Even Belle Saison (dry) is quite respectable, and loves it hot (up to 90-95F!).

So update on my episode from above...

The LHBS was closed Monday so I couldnt buy fresh yeast so the back up back up plan was to ask a coworker to borrow some harvested yeast from his own home bank... ironically, when I harvested my batch originally, a week or so after I had given him some of what I harvested for his own attempt at the Cottage Saison (he used Nelson hops instead), and then a month after of primary he harvested and stored his yeast in the fridge since then... which is what I pitched into my batch Monday... so it's the 3rd generation now of the yeast originally used when I made this batch.

There's plenty of blowoff tube activity in the bucket of starsan so we'll see how this turns out when all is said and done!

TLDR: brew day went perfectly (even overshot OG), pitched old harvested 3711, no fermentation, LHBS closed, pitched two time harvested 3711 from co worker originally obtained by me into wort.... will be back in 4 months to see how it all turns out

 

[azscoob]

@azscoob: Just want to write quickly to say thanks for sharing the recipe. This was my 3rd all grain brew. I drank my first bottle this past Sunday and I'm quite happy with the results.

Cheers!

I'm really happy you enjoyed it! I like reading posts like this, it makes posting up a recipe all worthwhile!!!!

 

[Sippingainteasy]

You will have a fine beer at any rate, and then we can see if the efficiency can't be improved through a few changes, usually a finer crush on the grain is the best place to start

Even with my lower numbers this batch turned out great. One of my favorites so far, I'll be making it again for sure. Thanks for sharing!

 

[pmaster]

Wow, its been in the primary for about 1 month, and there is still some bubbling coming out of the airlock! À very différent fermentation than last time when it took about 7-9 days! I guess ill wait it out

Gravity is at 1.00 so I might still bottle tomorrow if it hasn't changed.