Corn Sugar for starter

[heyvail]

Can I use corn sugar in a pinch to make a starter or should I just pitch the Wyeast Activator pack without a starter. I am making an IPA with a gravity of 1.080ish. I do not have access to DME without driving for 3 hours or ordering. I will now make sure I have plenty of DME around so this doesn't happen again.

 

[FatBaldBeerGuy]

Was about to ask the same question (though I'll need to use cane sugar if it is acceptable...) so I am definitely following this...

 

[pabloj13]

Don't want to do that. It will train the yeast to go after simple sugars, not the complex ones it needs to chew up in your wort. Does your local grocery store have Malta Goya?

 

[FatBaldBeerGuy]

Wow; just googled Malta Goya... Never even heard of that

Crazy stuff

 

[cshamilton]

Get some extra DME to have on hand for starters. You could use some of the malt extract from your kit and pitch the whole thing into your brew when ready. If you have a local grocery store with a semi-decent mexican section they will have Malta goya, which is an unfermented malt beverage - boil it up cool and pitch your yeast (it will bubble like crazy since it's carbonated, so careful of boil overs).

 

[aubiecat]

Don't want to do that. It will train the yeast to go after simple sugars, not the complex ones it needs to chew up in your wort. Does your local grocery store have Malta Goya?

Very interesting. I have seen Malta Goya at Walmart before. Didn't know what it was.

 

[heyvail]

I will pick up some Malta Goya, thanks for the replys.

 

[MrAverage]

I know, I know... there are very good technical reasons why you shouldn't use corn sugar for starters, but I know a guy who uses them all of the time and his beers have done very well in competions. I don't do it because I believe the techincal stuff and I have a system that works for me, but I can't explain this guy's results if usng corn sugar is really as bad as eveyone says.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I know, I know... there are very good technical reasons why you shouldn't use corn sugar for starters, but I know a guy who uses them all of the time and his beers have done very well in competions. I don't do it because I believe the techincal stuff and I have a system that works for me, but I can't explain this guy's results if usng corn sugar is really as bad as eveyone says.

the reason you don't want to use corn sugar is because corn sugar is simple sugar, beer wort contains more complex chains of sugars. yeast can ferment the complex sugars, but will go for the simple ones first if they're there. if you start the yeast off in a starter of simple sugars, the new yeast produced in the starter may not be well equipped to go after the longer chain sugars once they're pitched into the wort. i always make my starters with extra light DME, at around 1.036 OG or so.

 

[dcp27]

you could also make a starter using diluted wort and pitch it the next day.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I know, I know... there are very good technical reasons why you shouldn't use corn sugar for starters, but I know a guy who uses them all of the time and his beers have done very well in competions. I don't do it because I believe the techincal stuff and I have a system that works for me, but I can't explain this guy's results if usng corn sugar is really as bad as eveyone says.

The thing you have to keep in mind with many things in brewing is that not doing things the optimal way (and of course there's plenty of room for argument on optimal, but that's beside the point) does not automatically mean you'll have consequences.

So just because using a corn sugar starter conditions the yeast to process simple sugars, it doesn't guarantee you'll have any problems in your beer. It just means its more likely that you'll have issues.

Its the same with pitch rates, oxygenation, and on and on. Following best practices gives you the best chance of the result you want. But not following them doesn't guarantee failure.

 

[MrAverage]

if you start the yeast off in a starter of simple sugars, the new yeast produced in the starter may not be well equipped to go after the longer chain sugars once they're pitched into the wort.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, so please do not think I am.

I have read and re-read that basic point many times and I have chosen to believ it and use DME for my starters. They work, and therefore I have no reason to want to change.

I cannot help but wonder,though, if anyone has actually proven the assertion. It seems to me that it is reasonable to assume that using corn sugar in a starter would "train" the yeast in the starter to go for the simple sugars. After all, that's the environment that they're living in. However, I wonder about suceeding generations of yeast that are born after the starter is pitched into the wort. Why would they prefer simple sugars if they are growing in an evironment full of complex sugars and relatively lean on simple sugars? Do these sucessive generations inherit the simple sugar preference from their "parents"? Is this an example of micro evolution happening in an astonishingly brief span of time and generations? That would be pretty impressive.

Does anyone know of any research that has actually done the experiments and collected the data?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, so please do not think I am.

I have read and re-read that basic point many times and I have chosen to believ it and use DME for my starters. They work, and therefore I have no reason to want to change.

I cannot help but wonder,though, if anyone has actually proven the assertion. It seems to me that it is reasonable to assume that using corn sugar in a starter would "train" the yeast in the starter to go for the simple sugars. After all, that's the environment that they're living in. However, I wonder about suceeding generations of yeast that are born after the starter is pitched into the wort. Why would they prefer simple sugars if they are growing in an evironment full of complex sugars and relatively lean on simple sugars? Do these sucessive generations inherit the simple sugar preference from their "parents"? Is this an example of micro evolution happening in an astonishingly brief span of time and generations? That would be pretty impressive.

Does anyone know of any research that has actually done the experiments and collected the data?

totally a good point. i've thought the same thing before, but like you i've found DME works in starters so i have no reason to change that. i also bottle condition with DME, so the only corn sugar i have is what's come with kits.
i s'pose the experiment could easily be done in a split batch, half pitched with a starter made with corn sugar, the other DME. i'm gonna search around and see what i can find about other's trying this.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Check out Gremlyns post on the topic. He references a couple studies on the topic. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/yeast-metabolism-starters-condition-yeast-environment-wort-175473/

 

[ChillWill]

Another problem is lack of minerals in sugar that the yeast need.

You could get energy by eating sugar alone, but you'd get ill and be far from optimal by doing that.

 

[kingwood-kid]

If you have ever made bread, you will have noticed yeast grows well on flour. Think of it as dried wheat extract. Just boil some flour and table sugar, let it cool to about 100F, and add yeast. You now have a two-minute, 25 cent starter. To step up, just add more sugar. There's no need to add water unless you are closing in on your yeast's max abv tolerance, having alcohol in your starter will help eliminate any contamination.

If you are bottle-harvesting, just add sugar and non-boiling water to the original bottle and cover. Distilled is probably best, but I go straight from tap to starter with no ill effects. The dregs will have more than enough nutrients to allow the yeast to reproduce, and you save yourself the trouble of doing dishes by using a bottle you know is clean.

The yeast's DNA won't change, it will still be able to eat everything it ever could before. It just might have to slow down to manufacture some enzymes it hasn't used recently.

 

[sweetcell]

you could also make a starter using diluted wort and pitch it the next day.

not a bad idea, but that means your wort sits around for 24 hours - that's giving all the various sources of infection a 24 hour head-start over the yeast.

 

[FatBaldBeerGuy]

I was thinking that as well; but how about if you prepare the starter wort the day prior and give it 18-24 hours to work; then when you brew the next day your starter is ready to go when your wort is?

 

[arkowa]

Malta goya is a horrible idea for cost purposes. 1-2 liters of the stuff is much more expensive than dme.

 

[sweetcell]

I was thinking that as well; but how about if you prepare the starter wort the day prior and give it 18-24 hours to work; then when you brew the next day your starter is ready to go when your wort is?

yup, that's the correct way to do it. so maybe look into "stealing" (borrowing?) some of the extract from the main batch, using a little for starter, and having that much less in the main batch? your OG will be a little lower, but it would be worth it. and if your expected OG was 1.080, you can definitely spare a little extract for the starter. this high a brew will really benefit from a propertly started yeast.

Malta goya is a horrible idea for cost purposes. 1-2 liters of the stuff is much more expensive than dme.

definitely, but if there is no source of DME nearby and something is needed quickly then goya is the better option. we're talking about being stuck for a solution, not something anyone should do every day.

 

[kh54s10]

Malta goya is a horrible idea for cost purposes. 1-2 liters of the stuff is much more expensive than dme.

Maybe so, but if you don't have access to DME it is an emergency alternative.

 

[ChillWill]

Distilled is probably best, but I go straight from tap to starter with no ill effects.

You want to avoid using distilled, the osmotic effect isn't kind on yeast, basically the inside of the cell will try and exit so unless the cell walls are real strong it'll make your yeast unhappy.

Also, tap water has stuff like calcium and magnesium in it which the yeast like.

 

[dcp27]

not a bad idea, but that means your wort sits around for 24 hours - that's giving all the various sources of infection a 24 hour head-start over the yeast.

if you properly sanitize that won't be an issue. search for no chill brewing or real wort starters, its relatively common practice