Consistently low Original Gravity

[seb1222]

Hi,
I've made four beers (two partial mash and two all grain) that have all had original gravities between .019 and .013 below target. I am having a hard time figuring out what I'm doing wrong! I'll outline what I think are the important details about each beer to see if anyone has any insight:

1) Red Ale - TG 1.050, OG - 1.031
-1.5lbs carapils, 1 lb maris otter, 2oz chocolate malt, 3.3 lbs malt extract
-I mashed on a stove top around 160 degrees with 3.5qts, not realizing importance of temperature
-sloppy/fast sparge with 2 qts 170 F H2O
Despite my errors, I was surprised the OG was so low because seems like most of the sugars would have been in the extract?

2) Brown Ale - TG 1.048, OG - 1.031
-1lb maris otter, 1lb c120, 8oz brown malt, 3.3 lbs extract
-almost the same procedure as before except i kept the temperature around 154

Then I did a lot of reading, bought a cooler/mashtun/lautertun and wrote my own recipes.

3) Porter - TG 1.061 (I calculated this myself - def could have made mistakes. Also assumed 68% efficiency) OG - 1.047
-5lbs smoked malt, 4 lbs 2-row, 2.5 specialty
-combined 2.75g water at 168 degrees with the grain in the cooler for an hour, (settled at 153 degrees), tested with iodine before sparging
-sparged with 2.25g of 170 degree water - the first few cups i poured back in. only took about ten minutes because i don't really understand how to go slower or why. I have that bazooka spigot thing, do i just open the valve a tiny bit and then pour water very slowly in the top of my pot? what's the point of going so slow?
-after putting all in the carboy, I realized I totally miscalculated my water usage throughout so i added a gallon and a half of water at the very end.
-all water used is NYC tap water, untreated by me

4)Porter redo TG 1.053 (again, calculated by me assuming 68% efficiency), OG 1.040
10 lbs total grain, 4.5 lbs amber, 3 lbs two row, 2 lbs crystal, 8oz chocolate
-combined 3g water at 168 degrees with grain in cooler, gave it a good stir (maybe 5 rotations?) but I was worried about losing heat because my thermometer looked to only be at 149 degrees so i stuck the lid on and let it sit for the hour, tested with iodine before sparging.
-sparged with 1 gallon of 180 degree water - i put that gallon in my lauter tun first to get to the level of the bazooka, then i put in the grain, then i poured 4 gallons of 170 degree water over top. the first cups i poured back in, the rest i ladled over the top. the entire process only took ten minutes.

I read another thread of a guy with a similar problem where it seems like people are recommending stirring more and messing with the pH. does it seem like that's my problem as well? Does anyone know if NYC water would be the problem? And can stirring a bit more really bring my OG up by .013, which even still only gets me to 68% efficiency? And are there any really good videos about sparging? I've read both papazian's basic books, howtobrew.com, couple books by daniels, and I still don't understand why you have to sparge slowly or really how to sparge slowly.

Thanks for the help!

 

[seb1222]

Oh yeah, forgot to add my signature...

 

[brewinjunk]

I will try to address a few things, for the sparging slowly part, the main reason would be to avoid a stuck sparge, by opening up the valve all the way it creates pressure that may compact the grain bed, making it hard for the liquid to move through.

And 68% is not that bad of efficiency, the biggest thing is consistency. If you are consistently at 68%, just adjust the grain bill assuming that efficiency. What is another pound of grain a couple bucks at most? When I was first starting I had low efficiency, and I changed the grind of my grain to increase it. It worked fine, now I just worry about being consistent.

 

[seb1222]

Thanks brewinjunk. So, for sparging, why can't you just pour all 4 gallons of sparge water in at once and then open that valve right away? would that still make it stick?

And 68% was my target efficiency, but i ended up closer to 53%... I suppose I could always just up the grain, but if there's an obvious mistake I'd like to improve my technique!

 

[pkeeler]

1.5lbs carapils, 1 lb maris otter, 2oz chocolate malt, 3.3 lbs malt extract

Are these 5 gal. batches? I think you did well to get 1.031 out of that as I would guess you would only get 1.034. Maybe 1.040 with good technique and equipment. Probably needed another 2 lbs of extract.

-1lb maris otter, 1lb c120, 8oz brown malt, 3.3 lbs extract

Again, I think you would be lucky to get 1.036. Assuming that is LME and not DME (since LME usually comes in 3.3 lb cans). Did you make the recipes yourself?

-5lbs smoked malt, 4 lbs 2-row, 2.5 specialty

I think it is awesome you are trying to make your own recipes. Keep it up. However, I would suggest you always make a base malt at least 70% of your grist. That seems like a lot of smoked malt. You might not have enough enzymes in this to convert all the specialty malt in the usual 60 minutes people mash for.

In general, your all grain brews seem to be lacking in sparge. Are you fly, batch, or no sparging? Sparging slowly is important for fly sparging (continuous sparging). How much water are you collecting and then boiling? I think your sparge water quantities are really too low. You are simply leaving too much sugar in the mash, assuming the really low relative amounts of 2-row is converting everything to begin with.

I know it is boring, but try a "normal" recipe. An American Amber or Pale Ale would be a good recipe, look for one that brews a beer in the 8-14 SRM range. See how that works out. pH could be a problem, especially since you have such low amounts of base malt.

 

[JNye]

I consisistently get 88%, couple things I do that might help your process:
1. make sure you have a nice crush, I get a decent amount of flour.
2. add the mash water first, get it right, then add grain, stir alot making sure you have no doughballs.
3. stir every 15 minutes of the mash. do a good job.
4. I normally mash @ 1.25 qts/LB. Divide the remaining sparge water in 2. Double batch sparge. Stir it good. Sparge slowly. I am less concerned with sparge temp, but its usually around 160-170.

A note on sparging, sparging slowly allows better drainage, which in my mind seems like that would allow for better flow/contact/sugar exctraction. I'm not sure you understand vorlaufing, but its basically collecting the first few quarts of run-off from the mash and/or sparge and slowly pouring it back over the grainbed(trying not to disturb it too much). This allows for less grain material/husks in the kettle. Good luck. But low efficiency isn't that big of a deal.

 

[seb1222]

Thanks Pkeeler. Yes, 5 gallon batches. The extract batches were both kits, so they set the gravity. The second extract kit used LME as you guessed.

Thanks for the tip to use 70% base malt. My smoked malt was home smoked maris otter, and it seemed pretty subtle, so that's why I used so much. I did my TG calculations using the expected extraction from the maris otter, so perhaps I need to adjust my calculation since I smoked it?

I'm fly sparging I guess, slowly pouring water from a saucepan over the top and opening the valve at the bottom of my pot. For the two recipes I created, I collected 4 gallons on the first and 6 gallons on the second. I suppose I will try more sparge water and a longer boil, and a "tried and true" all grain recipe to see about the pH.

 

[seb1222]

Thanks JNye, All good tips that I will try! I appreciate the advice.

 

[skyebrewing]

All good points so far, but also how are you measuring your gravity? Hydrometer? Are you adjusting for temp?

 

[mixedbrewer]

Like Pkeeler mentioned above, that isnt much malt for the extract batches. I havent opened a kit yet with less than four lbs of malt (or rice syrup / solids). Keep in mind that if it looks too low, you can always add a little sugar, brown sugar, honey, etc. I have done this for no reason other than to get me up over the 1.03's.

 

[RM-MN]

One factor nobody else mentioned is the smoking of your malt. Smokers can be operated at a variety of temperatures and still impart a smoky flavor. If you smoked the malt too hot, you could have stopped part of the enzyme action of the Maris Otter so it couldn't convert all the possible sugars.

 

[seb1222]

skyewines - Yeah, measuring with a hydrometer and adjusting for temperature. I had suspected maybe I just got a bad hydrometer but the final gravities all seem about right..

 

[seb1222]

One factor nobody else mentioned is the smoking of your malt. Smokers can be operated at a variety of temperatures and still impart a smoky flavor. If you smoked the malt too hot, you could have stopped part of the enzyme action of the Maris Otter so it couldn't convert all the possible sugars.

That makes sense for the all grain recipes, so hopefully when I try one without the smoked malt I'll have more success.

 

[seb1222]

Like Pkeeler mentioned above, that isnt much malt for the extract batches. I havent opened a kit yet with less than four lbs of malt (or rice syrup / solids). Keep in mind that if it looks too low, you can always add a little sugar, brown sugar, honey, etc. I have done this for no reason other than to get me up over the 1.03's.

Strange- I'll talk to my homebrew shop - I think they created the partial mash/extract kits themselves - and see why they thought the target gravity could be so high with only 3.3 lbs extract!

 

[Walker]

Strange- I'll talk to my homebrew shop - I think they created the partial mash/extract kits themselves - and see why they thought the target gravity could be so high with only 3.3 lbs extract!

Yeah, that's a good idea. I put that first recipe into ProMash (assuming that your extract was liquid and not dry) and got an OG in the lower 1.030's, depending on how efficient you were with the grain.

Even if i put the efficiency in at 100% (which isn't even possible to achieve), the gravity was 1.041.

 

[seb1222]

Yeah, that's a good idea. I put that first recipe into ProMash (assuming that your extract was liquid and not dry) and got an OG in the lower 1.030's, depending on how efficient you were with the grain.

Even if i put the efficiency in at 100% (which isn't even possible to achieve), the gravity was 1.041.

Wow, ok I'll let them know, and I guess that means my gravity was fine for both of those batches!

 

[Eastside Brewer]

Wow, ok I'll let them know, and I guess that means my gravity was fine for both of those batches!

Kudos to you for asking the questions, that is the way to keep improving your brewing! This is a Great forum, lot's of experience and a willingness to share!

Eastside

 

[arch1tect]

I think you dove into the deep end of the pool and tried to learn to swim that way. I applaud your efforts and willingness to ask questions and apply it.

Honestly, I think you need to go back to the shallow side and learn to float first. Get a good extract kit and brew it. See what you come up with by using your established work flow.

Once you get that down move to Mini-Mashes or AG. If you're going to stick with AG though this is how I do my day.

1 Calculate Strike temp by comparing mash temp to grain temp.
2 Overheat the Strike water(1.25qt/lb) by about 10 degrees and throw it in the tun.
3 Cover and let sit for about 5 or 10 mins to preheat it.
4 Heat up about a gallon of water to boiling temp incase you miss the strike temp
5 Open lid and monitor temp to Strike Temp is reached and then dough-in
6 After stirring let it sit for about 5 mins to stabilize then take a temp(adjust if necessary)
7 After 30 mins, check temp to see if temp is being maintained
8 At about 45 mins, start heating up sparge water(170F to 175F ) at 1/2 gallon per pound of grain
9 Uncover mash tun and start vorlaufing your first runnings until they drain clear of particles.
10 drain into boil kettle
11 after first runnings are done measure (sight glass, dip stick) volume you have
12 close valve and dump in desired amount of sparge water, and stir grain
13 cover and let sit, throw kettle on burner and start heating.
14 about 10 mins repeat vorlaufing and draining.
15 begin boil.
13 repeat vorlaufing and draining into kettle.

 

[Delorean1981]

Does anyone know if NYC water would be the problem?

Personally, I think NYC water is some of the best I've ever had.

 

[seb1222]

Eastside - I agree, I'm so impressed with all the willingness to help! What a great community.

Arch1tect - Yeah, I did jump in a bit fast. My friends pressured me into entering a homebrew competition so I had to learn fast! I'll enter one of my porters if they're drinkable but I definitely want to get really good at the basics next. Thanks for writing out those steps, I especially like the idea of preheating my mashtun.

Delorean - Awesome! I felt like I kept hearing NYC water was ok but kept reading the importance of treating water so was starting to worry maybe I was wrong. It certainly tastes good from the tap!

 

[seb1222]

Eastside - I agree, I'm so impressed with all the willingness to help! What a great community.

Arch1tect - Yeah, I did jump in a bit fast. My friends pressured me into entering a homebrew competition so I had to learn fast! I'll enter one of my porters if they're drinkable but I definitely want to get really good at the basics next. Thanks for writing out those steps, I especially like the idea of preheating my mashtun.

Delorean - Awesome! I felt like I kept hearing NYC water was ok but kept reading the importance of treating water so was starting to worry maybe I was wrong. It certainly tastes good from the tap!