confused over german HB advice vs american HB techniques

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I applaud you in your pursuit for perfection. I highly recommend you start with All Grain brewing using a step mash process and begin with lagers from the start.



This is what you want to drink, and this is what you should be brewing.



There is a difference between most homebrewers and you. You have a very narrow end result planned. Most homebrewers love the variety you can get by brewing your own, from pale to dark ales, german lagers, Belgian funk, etc.



Not you. You want a particular beer so don't bother messing with those other techniques! There is no reason an intelligent person can't start brewing lagers right from the start if they are willing to read up on it, get the right equipment, and be patient.



I believe what you want to do is a step mash or decoction mash for your beer. This can be done with BIAB, which is an easy and inexpensive way to brew All Grain. A cooler mash tun doesn't make this easy, but if you do Decoction, then you will pulling a portion of the mash out of the cooler and boiling it and putting it back in. This is how the temperature gets higher. How much you pull out and boil determines how much hotter the mash is going to be.



I have no idea what you mean by separating the spelt etc. That is not something I'm familiar with, but I admit there is probably a LOT about German lager brewing methods that I don't know about.



One thing I do know. If you want to brew German Lagers, you will need a way to control the temperature. I recommend a small chest freezer and a temp controller like an STC-1000 to maintain primary temps (50F) and lagering temps (around 32F). I don't think you will be happy unless you can maintain the proper lager temps.



Lastly, I highly recommend you check out Kai's website:



http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com



Kai is a very detailed and precise brewer who's done lots of experimenting in the past. He is the epitome of German Engineer as fast as I can tell. I don't know how much homebrewing experimenting he's done lately (he's got other hobbies too) but you may be interested in what he's done so far. I know I've seen a video or two on his techniques.



Keeping aiming for your goals. I know you have the attention to detail that lager brewing requires.


Agreed 110%.

With tedious research, good attention to detail and determination anything is possible.

Most mistakes in home brewing I find are from differences in technique from one beer recipe to the next. If your focus is to make one recipe perfectly and only one recipe then I don't think there's much to worry about.

And this is from a fellow Bucks county brewer and fan of Munich lagers.

Go to keystone homebrew supply and walk about and get a feel for your new home. You'll end up spending a lot of time there once you get brewing.
 
I agree with the previous too posts if and only if the research is done and conflicting procedures are understood.

When I read the original post I saw a lot of confusion mixing procedures from ales and lagers, simple mashing techniques and step mashing etc. And all the stuff about removing the husks from the grain before mashing

It seemed to me that there was not a good understanding of the differences.

Thus my recommendation to start simple.....
 
His question was not about adding chaff, but reference an article in German that talked about removing the husks before mashing. I cannot read German so I can't look at it to see at what point in the process or even how or why they are removing husks.

her (!) not his Question ;)

so in this german recipe it says:

Schroten:
Die Spelzen werden nach dem 1. Mahlgang so gut wie möglich abgetrennt(Plansichter Siebsatz 1. Sieb) und der verbliebene Rest wird erneut geschrotet.

You remove the spelt/Husk after the first round of crushing and you do this by using a "Plansichter Siebsatz", than you ground the grains again.

From the recipe quoted it says you do that with your malted grain before you mash it.
The reason to do it would be eliminating the tannins in the spelts/husk and therefore the flavor of your beer will be milder. Adding a portion of the extract you made from them later, to add just a hint of these flavors is obv. characteristical for Munich Brews.

keeping in mind that there is nothing in a Helles that will "mask" flavors and especially that the Augustiner is extremely mild yet very flavorful it makes a lot of sense to me...

although I will postpone trying this to a much later stage in my experiment
 
I agree with the previous too posts if and only if the research is done and conflicting procedures are understood.

When I read the original post I saw a lot of confusion mixing procedures from ales and lagers, simple mashing techniques and step mashing etc. And all the stuff about removing the husks from the grain before mashing

It seemed to me that there was not a good understanding of the differences.

Thus my recommendation to start simple.....

that might be a language issue...

and that was why I started to look up stuff in german and you are probably right about the general understanding...

guess I'll have to read everything I have read in German to make sure I am not confusing styles because I confuse language/terminology
 
With BIAB (if you choose to go that route), step mashing and decoction mashing are both very doable and fun.

Speaking from limited experience, these mashes definitely requires more planning and knowing how your pot/mash-tun performs makes planning and carrying out the mash a lot easier.

Step mashing with direct heating, infusions of hot water or decoctions are all things to experiment with but there is a great deal to be said for being able to master carrying out a simpler single infusion (very non-German) mash. After a few batches it becomes routine.

The same is true of the more complex mashes emulating German techniques but some experience in your wheel-house will be of huge benefir to you.

For lagers I would stress the need for a very accurate thermometer with a quick read, a fermentation chamber to precisely control, pitch temperatures, fermentation temperatures and the appropriate time to make changes in the temperatures. Kegging also makes lager brewing easier IMO.

Largers are trickier but are a whole lot of fun to plan and brew. Took me a little over a year before I felt capable but that is purely a reflection on my own skillset.

I posted a Helles Recipe to the database with some of the techniques your interested in. Done with a step mash via direct heating. Also added an Alt with a decoction mash. Both tasty beers and very German-like I think
 
Agreed 110%.

With tedious research, good attention to detail and determination anything is possible.

Most mistakes in home brewing I find are from differences in technique from one beer recipe to the next. If your focus is to make one recipe perfectly and only one recipe then I don't think there's much to worry about.

And this is from a fellow Bucks county brewer and fan of Munich lagers.

Go to keystone homebrew supply and walk about and get a feel for your new home. You'll end up spending a lot of time there once you get brewing.

Actually thats what I thought I would end up trying to do at one point. Just get one recipe perfect.... and then take it from there.

Right now my brain is about to shut down from information overload :)
Very cool to know some one in Bucks is making Munich Lagers :)
I'll invite myself for "Quality-checks" - just kidding !
 
her (!) not his Question ;)

so in this german recipe it says:

Schroten:
Die Spelzen werden nach dem 1. Mahlgang so gut wie möglich abgetrennt(Plansichter Siebsatz 1. Sieb) und der verbliebene Rest wird erneut geschrotet.

You remove the spelt/Husk after the first round of crushing and you do this by using a "Plansichter Siebsatz", than you ground the grains again.

From the recipe quoted it says you do that with your malted grain before you mash it.
The reason to do it would be eliminating the tannins in the spelts/husk and therefore the flavor of your beer will be milder. Adding a portion of the extract you made from them later, to add just a hint of these flavors is obv. characteristical for Munich Brews.

keeping in mind that there is nothing in a Helles that will "mask" flavors and especially that the Augustiner is extremely mild yet very flavorful it makes a lot of sense to me...

although I will postpone trying this to a much later stage in my experiment

Sorry about the gender mistake. Since most of the HBTers are male I made a terrible conclusion.....

I have no idea what a "Plansichter Siebsatz" is.

Tannin extraction is something that is not really an issue in a homebrewing setting. It happens from a combination of pH and high temperature that are unlikely to be encountered.
 
I respectfully submit the following, including these three bits of advice:
1-Start with a kit!
2-Start with a kit!!
3-Start with a kit!!!

A metaphor: When we learn to walk all of us started as an infant worming and rolling around initially, followed by learning how to crawl. Around this time tenuous standing up starts followed by toddling around which as experience builds becomes true walking and then running ability development is right behind that.

Brewing, on some levels, is like this. Like learning to walk and run there are many things that can go wrong in each step of the brewing process!

Starting with a kit merely skips over a few steps in the process. But don't worry, there are still lots of things that you can do incorrectly! With a kit you still have to do most of the work that is required to make beer. You only basically skip over recipe formulation, grinding of the grain, and mashing/sparging.

You still have to pay attention to sanitation, still get to use your brew kettle, still get to cool your wort, still get to pitch the yeast, still get to tend to the fermentation as needed, still get to bottle and/or keg, and still get to drink it!

Starting with a kit lets you get that "back half" of the brewing process down before introducing the "front half" of it.

Prost!

I shall not use cake mix... I shall not.... my pride! Sir! a sacrilege !!!

Okay, you almost have me convinced.

To get a idea of my refusal here, you have to understand that we Germans take pride in doing stuff from scratch and that it was a sacrilege in the house I grew up in to use anything prepared or processed if you could do it yourself.

non of my German friends own a microwave. The "worst" you would do is buy pizza dough but you would still make the sauce from real tomatoes...

This might just be me having funny friends ...
let me think about the KIT for a while... maybe I will consider it.
 
To brew a lager to the degree that you want I hope that you have fermentation control on your equipment spreadsheet!

There is nothing wrong with wanting to start with all grain and skip extract (I did) and truth be told I had a spreadsheet when I bought all of my equipment and had not watched anyone brew before I ordered my equipment so it can be done but it is not the route most traveled. I started with some people's version of a homebrewer's "dream system" but before I purchased anything I had done a LOT of research and knew exactly what I wanted and why I needed it. I'm not sure you're at that point yet so I don't think I would pull the trigger on equipment yet if I were you.

The best advice I've seen on this thread is to go out and watch people brew - in person. You've been given 1 personal invitation and it appears there is a brew club in your area so you should hit that up as well and let them know you'd like to attend some of their brew sessions. After you've seen a variety of systems (multi-vessel, biab, electric, propane, etc.) you'll figure out what would work best for you and THEN pull the trigger on your shopping list.
 
Sorry about the gender mistake. Since most of the HBTers are male I made a terrible conclusion.....

:) not a big deal just wanted to clarify... would be strange otherwise for me...

I have no idea what a "Plansichter Siebsatz" is.
neither do I... I have a general idea of how that looks in industrial production yet no clue how to replicate that for homebrewing use.
Will research...
Tannin extraction is something that is not really an issue in a homebrewing setting. It happens from a combination of pH and high temperature that are unlikely to be encountered.

ok. that is valuable information, merci!

i might still want to figure out how to do it, just because :)
 
To brew a lager to the degree that you want I hope that you have fermentation control on your equipment spreadsheet!

There is nothing wrong with wanting to start with all grain and skip extract (I did) and truth be told I had a spreadsheet when I bought all of my equipment and had not watched anyone brew before I ordered my equipment so it can be done but it is not the route most traveled. I started with some people's version of a homebrewer's "dream system" but before I purchased anything I had done a LOT of research and knew exactly what I wanted and why I needed it. I'm not sure you're at that point yet so I don't think I would pull the trigger on equipment yet if I were you.

The best advice I've seen on this thread is to go out and watch people brew - in person. You've been given 1 personal invitation and it appears there is a brew club in your area so you should hit that up as well and let them know you'd like to attend some of their brew sessions. After you've seen a variety of systems (multi-vessel, biab, electric, propane, etc.) you'll figure out what would work best for you and THEN pull the trigger on your shopping list.

Yup! sounds like a plan!
100% agreed!

i did not intend brewing anything in the near future... I really need that personal "tipping point" and for now I feel like I have plenty of unsorted information in my head that lacks the "master plan" so... patience is my middle name for now :)
 
:) not a big deal just wanted to clarify... would be strange otherwise for me...


neither do I... I have a general idea of how that looks in industrial production yet no clue how to replicate that for homebrewing use.
Will research...


ok. that is valuable information, merci!

Isn't that French??

i might still want to figure out how to do it, just because :)

This is cool. I may have to look into it just to see what it is...
I doubt I would ever do it though since I would be too lazy....
 
If you're REALLY interested in adding some sort of chaff, you can always add rice hulls to your grain bill. :) A lot of brewers do that to help prevent stuck sparges. I've never done it, but I am not a very advanced brewer, and I rarely brew beer, although I love beer, it just takes more time than I have available. :) I mainly brew hard ciders, myself.

I wanted to get rid of it...

rice chaff is obv. a valuable resource of nutrition and balancing the ph in the feed for horses prone to ulcers...

not sure how that transfers to brewing and if I will ever need to know :)
 
This is cool. I may have to look into it just to see what it is...
I doubt I would ever do it though since I would be too lazy....

yup... merci is french for thank you...
I usually use italian: mille grazie...

to many alien friends from all over europe :)
 
Quoted for emphasis, because I was about to post this same thing. Kits are far more involved than buying a cake mix, at least in my opinion. If nothing else, it gives you a clean slate to start on for fermentation. If something does go wrong and you are trying to figure out, "Why does my beer taste bad" This at least should give you a good starting ground to make sure you can pinpoint some mistakes, before you add too much to the process. I think too many beginners underestimate the power of good fermentation, enough yeast, good temps, etc. Usually, when I've tasted a "Bad" beer, it's because the fermentation was off, not because they added a grain I'm not a fan of.

I can not replicate the grumbling sound that I am making and the face that comes with it...

You guys are slowly breaching my wall of stubborn refusal...

I get the point that if something goes wrong with a KIT I have less possible things to look at - hence, a better understanding and better source to gain experience...

*sigh

I might... really... I might...
 
The following picture shows what a proper grain crush should look like. If you google "noonan grain crush homebrewtalk" there's a thread that discusses percentages of husk, crushed grain, flour, etc. Some of the pictures won't load but you'll get the grist of the thread. Sorry.

I like the JSP Malt Mill because one model allows you to adjust one side and you get a varied level of crush.

You may want to try a kit, at least one time, because it allows you to concentrate on two of the salient features of brewing that often bedevil the beginning brewer: sanitation and fermentation temperature control. Once you get these down, and it will only be once, you can move on to all-grain brewing. Or just dive in; it's fun either way.

11423686_783034918460328_132063319791359740_n.jpg

Cool! and thanks and... i might really consider a kit now...

I did not intent to mill/crush my grains but have them milled in the Supply shop.
I thought that was way to advanced for now.

Very highly appreciate the recommendation and the link.

I need a two week vacation to read and process all of the information now :)
 
Interesting thread...as a retired shop teacher my best advice would be to go help someone brew as soon as possible. You will realize that most of the worry is for nothing, and that it is much easier than expected. You will also get a chance to taste someone's homebrew while you're at it...just don't taste too much until the fermentor is happily put to bed... :)
Enjoy!

LOL! :)
Hey, I am German, beer is considered liquid food!


I'll check out the brew clubs and you are right, helping is a great way to learn and get experience rather than messing it up all on your own :)
 
Kit or recipe, it doesn't matter. What does matter is not getting involved in complex procedures. Get a simple method down and learn it then expand from there. Many people start with all grain and not a kit. But the successful ones take a tried and true recipe and use a simple brewing method and stick to that until they get the procedures down.

After you get comfortable with simple recipes and procedures you can take more advanced steps, like step infusion mashes or decoction mashes. Neither of which I would recommend for a beginner. Lagers or very high gravity brews I would also recommend against.

Another way beginners mess up is to try to alter a kit or recipe without knowledge of what effects their alterations will have on the end product.

Keep it simple to start off.

you sound so reasonable and so right...

and I guess I am finally getting the point... when you start drawing you don't start with replicating Dürer or Rembrand you start with the basic shapes...

Thanks!
 
You understand me!!!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

and yes, my original goal is to get this one recipe perfect!

I applaud you in your pursuit for perfection. I highly recommend you start with All Grain brewing using a step mash process and begin with lagers from the start.

This is what you want to drink, and this is what you should be brewing.

There is a difference between most homebrewers and you. You have a very narrow end result planned. Most homebrewers love the variety you can get by brewing your own, from pale to dark ales, german lagers, Belgian funk, etc.

Not you. You want a particular beer so don't bother messing with those other techniques! There is no reason an intelligent person can't start brewing lagers right from the start if they are willing to read up on it, get the right equipment, and be patient.

Thanks again!

I still want to figure out all the other options but I thought that once I get my Lager right only then I will start experimenting with other stuff.

I have to now figure out what will be the best way for me personally...
I will keep gathering and sorting information and at one point my brain gets it in order and has a "Plan" then I am good to go.
have experienced that with many different things here, that require learning new skills or adapting to new techniques...


I believe what you want to do is a step mash or decoction mash for your beer. This can be done with BIAB, which is an easy and inexpensive way to brew All Grain. A cooler mash tun doesn't make this easy, but if you do Decoction, then you will pulling a portion of the mash out of the cooler and boiling it and putting it back in. This is how the temperature gets higher. How much you pull out and boil determines how much hotter the mash is going to be.

That method is described in Palmers book. And it is obv. called "Zweimaischverfahren" in German.
I'll figure that out, maybe I really have to read everything in German again just to make sure I am not confusing technical terms.

I truly feel like an utter idiot reading some of this stuff in english - once I get the german translation it all is very clear...

I have no idea what you mean by separating the spelt etc. That is not something I'm familiar with, but I admit there is probably a LOT about German lager brewing methods that I don't know about.

I am getting closer to solving that mystery :)
Once I am doing it for the first time I will report :)
(probably two or three years from today)

One thing I do know. If you want to brew German Lagers, you will need a way to control the temperature. I recommend a small chest freezer and a temp controller like an STC-1000 to maintain primary temps (50F) and lagering temps (around 32F). I don't think you will be happy unless you can maintain the proper lager temps.

I am torn between chest freezer and compact fridge - considering that it has more space but thinking that me tiny person will have to lift the stuff in and out (and I am used to lifting heavy stuff and not scared of it - but I am tiny after all and will be pursuing this endeavor alone) I might aim for the more convenient compact fridge. But this and a external temperature control is on top of my shopping list.

Lastly, I highly recommend you check out Kai's website:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

Kai is a very detailed and precise brewer who's done lots of experimenting in the past. He is the epitome of German Engineer as fast as I can tell. I don't know how much homebrewing experimenting he's done lately (he's got other hobbies too) but you may be interested in what he's done so far. I know I've seen a video or two on his techniques.

Keeping aiming for your goals. I know you have the attention to detail that lager brewing requires.

I will do :)

Thank you so much!
 
Hi Braumeise,

You've got lots of good info here, so I'll just add a few thoughts:

I would applaud your determination to make things from scratch at every stage, and recognize a German desire to do things the "authentic" way (my wife is German - we debate this often). I wouldn't necessarily say that you must use a kit, but extract (and some hop pellets, and an appropriate liquid yeast) rather than grain would be a good choice, as would starting with a hefeweizen if that's a style you also enjoy.

It seems that most people starting out on brewing focus a lot on recipe and ingredients, whereas I would suggest that more experienced brewers tend to place a lot more emphasis on the process itself as being the heart of brewing. There's not a huge difference between the recipes used in many different beers (especially in the wheat or pale lager families), but subtle procedural points make big differences. There are award-winning beers made with extracts, and poor beers made with all grain, fresh hops, etc., etc. The process is actually probably more than 80% of good brewing.

I would suggest that you focus on getting prepared to have a strong/healthy fermentation (IE - well-oxygenated, good temperature control, appropriate amount of healthy yeast), and get comfortable dealing with the time, space, and weight challenges involved in a brewday. It's a different animal than bread - bread isn't heavy, isn't hard to cool, or to move, and is generally made with flour you bought already milled and ready to use. If that's not a "cheat" in baking, then extract isn't a "cheat" in brewing.

At the beginning, you don't want to have 30-40 possible reasons why you didn't get the result you were hoping for - 5-10 would be lots! If you use all grain, then water chemistry isn't a big deal, unless you live in an area with water that is an issue, or choose to do BIAB, in which case tannins can be more of an issue, especially in a lighter beer. Respectfully, if your experience is at all like mine, you probably won't initially know precisely how to describe unintended flavours and results, and will have to rely on trial and error to isolate causes. This same dynamic is true at a number of levels - there are many questions to answer, and starting with only a few things mean that you have a fighting chance of knowing where to start solving problems if you aren't totally happy with the results. (Extract basically means you can cut out a few major possible areas of difficulty, and yeast provides an awful lot of the flavour in hefeweizens, anyway, so it's not a big compromise.)

Finally - reading and reading, and reading is a great start, but there's some element of actually physically coordinating brewing in your space and with your equipment that books won't necessarily prepare you for, but that can be a big factor when you've been brewing for four or five hours, and have 23L of hot liquid that then has to be cooled, transfered, oxygenated, moved into a fermenting space, and inoculated with yeast without doing anything wrong. Mistakes at the beginning of the process are actually probably less critical than mistakes at the end, and mental fatigue can be a factor (even if no one wants to admit it). Picking something less complicated to make lets you focus on the essential first steps. If you had never driven a car, and read everything on the internet about how to drive, you would probably be ready to practice driving around an empty parking lot. You wouldn't be ready for the autobahn, though. The way you use the car may be the same, but one is too complicated to reliably do right the first time.

In any event - happy brewing, and good luck! :)
 
Hi Braumeise,

You've got lots of good info here, so I'll just add a few thoughts:

I would applaud your determination to make things from scratch at every stage, and recognize a German desire to do things the "authentic" way (my wife is German - we debate this often).

ha! :) so you are also familiar with that special kind of unwillingness that comes with FEMALE German stubbornness... ;)

I wouldn't necessarily say that you must use a kit, but extract (and some hop pellets, and an appropriate liquid yeast) rather than grain would be a good choice, as would starting with a hefeweizen if that's a style you also enjoy.

I truly enjoy the Iclandic white Ale from Einstök so I thought that was something a litle bit easier to start with...
I kept thinking about the comparison to drawing/painting... you learn the basics first: basic figures, shades and distances and you learn to master traditional painting before you go out and experiment with expressionism etc.

I guess all I need to figure out now is how to translate that process to brewing.... and my Lager shall be my "master the traditional style"... so all I need to figure out is what are the basic figures, the distances and shades... and then start from there.

It seems that most people starting out on brewing focus a lot on recipe and ingredients, whereas I would suggest that more experienced brewers tend to place a lot more emphasis on the process itself as being the heart of brewing. There's not a huge difference between the recipes used in many different beers (especially in the wheat or pale lager families), but subtle procedural points make big differences. There are award-winning beers made with extracts, and poor beers made with all grain, fresh hops, etc., etc. The process is actually probably more than 80% of good brewing.

Without having any idea of what I am getting myself into that was my first intuition. Maybe that is in the German genes since purity laws leave you little space with recipes BUT you have all the freedom to create a new method for the process.

I would suggest that you focus on getting prepared to have a strong/healthy fermentation (IE - well-oxygenated, good temperature control, appropriate amount of healthy yeast), and get comfortable dealing with the time, space, and weight challenges involved in a brewday. It's a different animal than bread - bread isn't heavy, isn't hard to cool, or to move, and is generally made with flour you bought already milled and ready to use. If that's not a "cheat" in baking, then extract isn't a "cheat" in brewing.

Gotcha! :)
As I said, I was going to practice with just water to figure out a "game plan".
I do believe the so called german efficiency stems from making a good plan before you even touch anything that could become a problem.

At the beginning, you don't want to have 30-40 possible reasons why you didn't get the result you were hoping for - 5-10 would be lots! If you use all grain, then water chemistry isn't a big deal, unless you live in an area with water that is an issue, or choose to do BIAB, in which case tannins can be more of an issue, especially in a lighter beer. Respectfully, if your experience is at all like mine, you probably won't initially know precisely how to describe unintended flavours and results, and will have to rely on trial and error to isolate causes. This same dynamic is true at a number of levels - there are many questions to answer, and starting with only a few things mean that you have a fighting chance of knowing where to start solving problems if you aren't totally happy with the results. (Extract basically means you can cut out a few major possible areas of difficulty, and yeast provides an awful lot of the flavour in hefeweizens, anyway, so it's not a big compromise.)

I am taking all you said seriously into consideration. Once I have made up my mind on how to start you will all witness this historic moment and maybe be able to say: see... we told you :)
Maybe not...

for now I have tons of very good advise here and very useful information to take into account. Once all the information is processed and has settled I need to follow my intuition. Thats probably a very female way of saying: I will then still not know what I am doing but I am hoping for it to be the right thing :)


Finally - reading and reading, and reading is a great start, but there's some element of actually physically coordinating brewing in your space and with your equipment that books won't necessarily prepare you for, but that can be a big factor when you've been brewing for four or five hours, and have 23L of hot liquid that then has to be cooled, transfered, oxygenated, moved into a fermenting space, and inoculated with yeast without doing anything wrong. Mistakes at the beginning of the process are actually probably less critical than mistakes at the end, and mental fatigue can be a factor (even if no one wants to admit it). Picking something less complicated to make lets you focus on the essential first steps. If you had never driven a car, and read everything on the internet about how to drive, you would probably be ready to practice driving around an empty parking lot. You wouldn't be ready for the autobahn, though. The way you use the car may be the same, but one is too complicated to reliably do right the first time.

No such thing as mental fatigue in Germany! ;)
But I know what you mean and that's why I am going to practice without ingredients. With the reading and learning theoretically you preach to the converted with me. If I really want something that is my usual approach ... it eliminates a lot of possible failure and dealing with failure is so much worse than being patient and read and learn FIRST :)



In any event - happy brewing, and good luck! :)

Mille Grazie!

I'll keep you all posted!
 
With the danger of repeating all that has been said...
Each of the techniques you mentioned above are all truly valid, historical methods of brewing. A few hundred years ago, there wasn't as much information around. Certainly no internet, and no mass produced books to tell people how to brew. For that matter, you wouldn't necessarily know what the guy more than a few miles away was doing to make his beer different than yours.
So, a lot of different methods of brewing evolved, to work with the local conditions and local ingredients.
I am no historian, or expert (there are others here and on other forums that can explain things better) but in a nutshell:
Step brewing developed to handle malts that were not as modified in the malting process as they are now. Todays barley malts have plenty of enzymes to convert the starches to sugars relatively easily. back when, it wasn't as easy, so the step mash developed over time to be able to unravel and use the enzymes and starches. (again, this is a a very loose nutshell. There are some excellent books that can explain this far better than I)
Chilling: we think generally that quicker is better, but as long as the wort is sealed from air (and therefore contaminents) a "no chill" or slow chill method is fine.
Priming: Using reserved wort (especially if it is pitched separately and added to the fermented beer) is known as krausening. It's just another method of carbonating beer.
Personally I don't ferment open; my basement has enough crap and occasionally bugs flying around that I don't trust it. Also, if the area has drafts, it will disturb the blanket of CO2 that forms and protects the fermenting beer from oxidation. I know of several breweries that do use open fermenters, they (with the exception of ones designed for sour beers) are in sealed rooms with filtered air ensuring nothing gets in that they don't want.
In the homebrewing world, secondaries are falling out of favor, especially with ales. There is nothing wrong with using one, but most of the reasons to do so are not really applicable to the homebrew volumes. Exceptions are for bulk aging, such as on wood or fruit, and souring.
Disadvantages of doing it include risks of oxidation and contamintation. Why add additional work that really isn't needed (caveat: when doing lagers, secondary is a useful technique, when you need to chill it down to near freezing for a few weeks)
For a first beer, I would recommend something relatively easy, like a pale ale. Lagers take some additional techniques and equipment, not to mention time.
How many books? Personlly I recommend 2 especially: John Palmer's How to Brew, and Charlie Papazian's Complete Joy of Homebrewing. Palmer is more by the numbers, and gets a lot more into the science and math of brewing, whereas Papazian is more of a feel guy, basically, do whatever, as long as basic sanitation is on, you'll end up with beer. "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" is his mantra.
And don't completely discount extract; there isn't anything wrong with it, many award winning beers have been made with extract. IMO, using extract for the first couple just negates a few extra steps that can go wrong when there's so much you will be worrying about anyways.
Hwoever, for a first time, all grain recipe, Try something like this:
Simple pale ale
10 LBs 2-row pale malt
1.0 LB Crystal 20
Mash at 152 degrees f 1 hour
add boiling water to mash out at 168 degrees for 15 minutes
drain and sparge with 170 degree water
target roughly 6.5 gallons into kettle
60 min boil
1oz Cascade hops 60min
1oz Cascade hops 10min
1oz Cascade hops 5min.
pitch White Labs WLP001 / Wyeast 1056 / Safale US-05 yeast
ferement mid-60s for min 2 weeks or until done (I personally check gravity at 2.5 weeks, then again at 3 weeks, targeting bottling for then [I find I get better beer leaving it the extra week. YMMV])
prime with ~4 oz corn sugar dissolved in 1cup boiling water.
let carbonate 2 - 3 weeks.
Enjoy.
 
Lots of good advice here. Braukaiser's site is a godsend to lager brewers. Spend lots of time on it.

I would recommend strongly you start with BIAB brewing, 2.5G batches. With smaller batches, you can learn in a way that mistakes cost less. With lagers, it is less volume to temperature control. I have done some wonderful lagers, am a huge fan, here are my recommendations. Start with a single temp mash- with the highly modified grain today, step mashes / decoctions are less necessary. When you have made a few great brews, I highly recommend decoction, it's lots of work but lots of fun, and while one can debate the qualitative differences, brewers love to play, or we would just buy beer from a local brewery! Second, get an oxygen stone / injector, good oxygenation has a huge impact with lager fermentation. Third, is, of course, a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. This could be a bucket for your fermenter with water and frozen water bottles (my first lager was made this way, lots of switching out of water bottles but it came out great). It could be a chest freezer with a temp controller. Finally, lager in the bottle. It's easier to keep bottles at low temps than a carboy or bucket (unless you have a temp controlled freezer), and works just fine. You'll have more yeast and sediment at the bottom of the bottle, just make sure you don't pour it into your glass. Especially with BIAB, I don't think all-grain is that unreachable. Yes, it adds complication, and hence risk, but with small batches, that's not such an issue. Good luck, ask lots of good questions, and soon you'll be drinking wonderful homebrewed lagers. If you ever get to Denver, we have Prost brewing, absolutely fantastic. Welcome to the group :mug:
 
So... I have spent my day off in the HBT Forum and the barn... nice balancing out things...

Thank you guys so much, you are awesome!
I wanted to do a horse training lecture in Colorado---- it is on my "bucket list" since two years now. so if I end up anywhere near you, I will for sure visit!

Lots of good advice here. Braukaiser's site is a godsend to lager brewers. Spend lots of time on it.

I did already and will do too :) great information there. Thanks for the link.

I would recommend strongly you start with BIAB brewing, 2.5G batches. With smaller batches, you can learn in a way that mistakes cost less. With lagers, it is less volume to temperature control. I have done some wonderful lagers, am a huge fan, here are my recommendations. Start with a single temp mash- with the highly modified grain today, step mashes / decoctions are less necessary. When you have made a few great brews, I highly recommend decoction, it's lots of work but lots of fun, and while one can debate the qualitative differences, brewers love to play, or we would just buy beer from a local brewery!

I can't buy Augustiner anywhere here only the Edelstoff and that is just not the "Helles"... :)

Although it serves my purpose well that all of you guys are so enthusiastic and dedicated.
I very highly appreciate all the priceless information I am given here.
*very grateful!

And it should come as no surprise that my biggest worry apart from the very different water in Munich was my future fermentation chamber.
It is only now after talking to you guys here that my worries have exploded exponentially !!!
In the beginning I thought - this is not rocket science and even if it was, I was never afraid of chemistry, math, physics, numbers and equations in general...

Now... well... now I think I need more time to learn and read... and eliminate possible chaos....


Second, get an oxygen stone / injector, good oxygenation has a huge impact with lager fermentation.

I have to look into that. Thanks... I planed on "beating" my wort with a 24" professional french whip for restaurant purposes...
After all I can foam milk and make mouse with a french whip ;) and I whip my cream by hand not with a electrical powered device (if that counts as a helpful skill) :)

Third, is, of course, a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. This could be a bucket for your fermenter with water and frozen water bottles (my first lager was made this way, lots of switching out of water bottles but it came out great). It could be a chest freezer with a temp controller. Finally, lager in the bottle. It's easier to keep bottles at low temps than a carboy or bucket (unless you have a temp controlled freezer), and works just fine.

see above... thoughts of my future DIY fermentation "Chamber" are my hugest issue.
I am used to lifting heavy stuff but I have my doubts that I will perform very well with a chest freezer, even if I get handles for the carboys. I might then have to do it in a bucket although I have the "plastic versus Glass" issue then and I would prefer glass.

that will take thorough research before I buy anything and before I have that I will not brew anything...


You'll have more yeast and sediment at the bottom of the bottle, just make sure you don't pour it into your glass. Especially with BIAB, I don't think all-grain is that unreachable. Yes, it adds complication, and hence risk, but with small batches, that's not such an issue. Good luck, ask lots of good questions, and soon you'll be drinking wonderful homebrewed lagers. If you ever get to Denver, we have Prost brewing, absolutely fantastic. Welcome to the group :mug:


Thanks!
and I will let you know for sure, when my horse training trip finally takes place :)

I'll keep you posted!
 
I have to look into that. Thanks... I planed on "beating" my wort with a 24" professional french whip for restaurant purposes...

see above... thoughts of my future DIY fermentation "Chamber" are my hugest issue.
I am used to lifting heavy stuff but I have my doubts that I will perform very well with a chest freezer, even if I get handles for the carboys. I might then have to do it in a bucket although I have the "plastic versus Glass" issue then and I would prefer glass.

O2 injection brings the oxygen levels in your wort much higher than room air can, and yeast needs oxygen to effectively reproduce- $50 well spent for lagers! For lifting stuff, a brew hauler is great, and I have a Carboy Cover, which works great to lift full carboys. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LE1R61K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
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With the danger of repeating all that has been said...

no worries... you are not :)
and even if... I am at a stage where it doesn't hurt to read stuff twice or even more times...

Each of the techniques you mentioned above are all truly valid, historical methods of brewing. A few hundred years ago, there wasn't as much information around. Certainly no internet, and no mass produced books to tell people how to brew. For that matter, you wouldn't necessarily know what the guy more than a few miles away was doing to make his beer different than yours.

In most cases he probably just had the better water or was closer to a bakery... (no yeast adding in early German brewing!)
And then the sense for engineering kicks in which drives you to refine the known methods.... right now I am not sure if I am blessed with that or cursed :)

So, a lot of different methods of brewing evolved, to work with the local conditions and local ingredients.

And this makes it so very complicated for me atm because my local conditions don't exactly call for Munich lager :)

I am no historian, or expert (there are others here and on other forums that can explain things better) but in a nutshell:
Step brewing developed to handle malts that were not as modified in the malting process as they are now. Todays barley malts have plenty of enzymes to convert the starches to sugars relatively easily. back when, it wasn't as easy, so the step mash developed over time to be able to unravel and use the enzymes and starches. (again, this is a a very loose nutshell. There are some excellent books that can explain this far better than I)

That helps a lot, thank you!
makes me feel much better about mashing everything together in a cooler to start my endeavor.


Chilling: we think generally that quicker is better, but as long as the wort is sealed from air (and therefore contaminents) a "no chill" or slow chill method is fine.

Thats what I got from palmers book - quicker is better.
Yet, it seems to work to do it slow.



Priming: Using reserved wort (especially if it is pitched separately and added to the fermented beer) is known as krausening. It's just another method of carbonating beer.
Personally I don't ferment open; my basement has enough crap and occasionally bugs flying around that I don't trust it. Also, if the area has drafts, it will disturb the blanket of CO2 that forms and protects the fermenting beer from oxidation. I know of several breweries that do use open fermenters, they (with the exception of ones designed for sour beers) are in sealed rooms with filtered air ensuring nothing gets in that they don't want.

I'll trust the sealed method for now and will experiment with open fermenting later...



In the homebrewing world, secondaries are falling out of favor, especially with ales. There is nothing wrong with using one, but most of the reasons to do so are not really applicable to the homebrew volumes. Exceptions are for bulk aging, such as on wood or fruit, and souring.

merci!

Disadvantages of doing it include risks of oxidation and contamintation. Why add additional work that really isn't needed (caveat: when doing lagers, secondary is a useful technique, when you need to chill it down to near freezing for a few weeks)

and again, thanks!



For a first beer, I would recommend something relatively easy, like a pale ale. Lagers take some additional techniques and equipment, not to mention time.
How many books? Personlly I recommend 2 especially: John Palmer's How to Brew, and Charlie Papazian's Complete Joy of Homebrewing. Palmer is more by the numbers, and gets a lot more into the science and math of brewing, whereas Papazian is more of a feel guy, basically, do whatever, as long as basic sanitation is on, you'll end up with beer. "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" is his mantra.

will read that - sounds likable :)
Does a white ale count as easy?

I would aim to get as close to Einstök white Ale if possible :)
and repeat until I find it close enough to be called drinkable...


And don't completely discount extract; there isn't anything wrong with it, many award winning beers have been made with extract. IMO, using extract for the first couple just negates a few extra steps that can go wrong when there's so much you will be worrying about anyways.

You Guys are really slowly breaching my walls of pride and stubborn refusal...
I look into extract brewing and see if that can get me anywhere near Einstöck...


Hwoever, for a first time, all grain recipe, Try something like this:
Simple pale ale
10 LBs 2-row pale malt
1.0 LB Crystal 20
Mash at 152 degrees f 1 hour
add boiling water to mash out at 168 degrees for 15 minutes
drain and sparge with 170 degree water
target roughly 6.5 gallons into kettle
60 min boil
1oz Cascade hops 60min
1oz Cascade hops 10min
1oz Cascade hops 5min.
pitch White Labs WLP001 / Wyeast 1056 / Safale US-05 yeast
ferement mid-60s for min 2 weeks or until done (I personally check gravity at 2.5 weeks, then again at 3 weeks, targeting bottling for then [I find I get better beer leaving it the extra week. YMMV])
prime with ~4 oz corn sugar dissolved in 1cup boiling water.
let carbonate 2 - 3 weeks.
Enjoy.


Thank you!
I will come back to this... and let you know if it came out at all drinkable :)

you guys are really awesome!
 
O2 injection brings the oxygen levels in your wort much higher than room air can, and yeast needs oxygen to effectively reproduce- $50 well spent for lagers! For lifting stuff, a brew hauler is great, and I have a Carboy Cover, which works great to lift full carboys. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LE1R61K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

that cover is cool! I guess I have to find some one near me with a chest freezer who will let my try to lift a full carboy in and out. After all I am not tall. Will very much depend on the height of the possible freezer.

Also space will become an issue - this all needs a thorough plan and lots of spread sheets :)
 
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While glass is the easiest to clean and sanitize, and is also impermeable to oxygen, glass carboys are dangerous. They have been known to break for no apparent reason. Check out the thread on carboy accidents: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=376523. You might want to seriously consider using only plastic for anything over one gallon.

And you are correct: brewing is not rocket science. You can do almost all of the calculations with simple arithmetic and a little algebra. You won't need any differential equations unless you want to try simulating the fly sparging process :D

Brew on :mug:
 
While glass is the easiest to clean and sanitize, and is also impermeable to oxygen, glass carboys are dangerous. They have been known to break for no apparent reason. Check out the thread on carboy accidents: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=376523. You might want to seriously consider using only plastic for anything over one gallon.

And you are correct: brewing is not rocket science. You can do almost all of the calculations with simple arithmetic and a little algebra. You won't need any differential equations unless you want to try simulating the fly sparging process :D

Brew on :mug:

Will check that, thank you for the warning - adds one more con to glass.

my pros and cons so far:

*weight... glass is heavier to lift

* bucket comes with handle, hence easier to lift.

*possible damage (plastic can scratch and will be impossible to sanitize if scratched) and

*I don't trust that no plastic flavour will get into my brew...

*I have not found a glass carboy with a spigot but the big mouth bubbler plastic ones have one... hence I will have a source of possible contamination by using a siphon with a glass carboy.


very incomplete spread sheet with pros and cons atm so way to go before making a final decision.
 
...

*I have not found a glass carboy with a spigot but the big mouth bubbler plastic ones have one... hence I will have a source of possible contamination by using a siphon with a glass carboy.

...

Spigots are also a possible source of contamination (I found mold growing in one of mine at the end of a fermentation once.) So, I think spigot vs. siphon is a tie w.r.t. possible contamination.

Brew on :mug:
 
Welcome aboard! I wouldn't worry about a ton of equipment and mashing right away. I apologize if someone already mentioned something like this, but here's a suggestion: If you like hefeweizen, you can make a very good one with extract. The second batch of my brewing career was a hefeweizen recipe from Charlie Papazian's book. I used 6.6 lbs. of wheat/barley liquid extract, about 13 IBUs of Hallertauer hops, and Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen). After my first batch (a light lager kit that came with my homebrew kit and which didn't exactly meet my expectations), I was very pleased with the hefeweizen because it actually tasted like something I'd buy. The 3068 is great because it gives you those nice clove/banana flavors and it can ferment fairly warm (up to 75 deg. F), so you don't have to worry quite as much about keeping fermentation temperatures low. You won't be using a kit, you'll be minimizing the possibility of screwing something up, and I guarantee that once you see what you're capable of with such a simple recipe and minimal equipment you'll be hooked.
 
Lots of stuff to read in the thread @braumeise .

Here are some Pictures to help visualizes some of the important things to make lagers, and of course some tasty homemade lagers.

Lots of theory for sure but the only way to hone your skills is to brew. Heck even making a simple batch of German Apfelwein will illustrate how to sanitize, mix simple ingredients and the pattern of fermentation. I wish you every success. You're off to a great start by discovering HBT. :)

Lots of Yeast (starters needed)
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Oxygenation of the Wort.
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Temperature Control (precise)
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Helles
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Vienna

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OMG! The Helles looks so good! I have the same Set of all metal knifes btw. (good sign!)

and that Oxygenator looks awesome!

Thank you!
I will be back with more questions.
And maybe I will really start with an Extract Kit just for doing it once.
 
Welcome aboard! I wouldn't worry about a ton of equipment and mashing right away. I apologize if someone already mentioned something like this, but here's a suggestion: If you like hefeweizen, you can make a very good one with extract.

Thank you and nice to be here...
I actually never cared for German Hefeweizen, although I don't mind Kronebourg Blanc or Belgium wit beers and I was very pleased by Witches Wit from Lost Abby this year and I actually love the Icelandic white Ale from Einstök. So I can become friends with that idea if I think about it a little longer...

The second batch of my brewing career was a hefeweizen recipe from Charlie Papazian's book. I used 6.6 lbs. of wheat/barley liquid extract, about 13 IBUs of Hallertauer hops, and Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen). After my first batch (a light lager kit that came with my homebrew kit and which didn't exactly meet my expectations), I was very pleased with the hefeweizen because it actually tasted like something I'd buy. The 3068 is great because it gives you those nice clove/banana flavors and it can ferment fairly warm (up to 75 deg. F), so you don't have to worry quite as much about keeping fermentation temperatures low. You won't be using a kit, you'll be minimizing the possibility of screwing something up, and I guarantee that once you see what you're capable of with such a simple recipe and minimal equipment you'll be hooked.

Haha! Not worried about any form of addiction. I am hooked since I started looking at equipment because it all looks so sophisticated and cool...
and my house will be the coolest place on the east coast if I ever manage to have my version of Augustiner Helles on Tap.... :)

I'll figure it out!
Thanks for being helpful.
I really appreciate you guys sharing your expertise with me :)
 
Hey ~ ~

It is time for you to jump in and get your feet wet.

~ ~ you are over educating yourself ~ ~

Go brew ~ You will find out Drinking selfmade homebrew will make this all clear.
 
What sfish said.

I'm a partial something brewer who started because I'm a home cook who about once a week does a randomly selected recipe (latest: jam cake, next up: chopped liver). In 2009 random.org selected for me: Continental Light Lager in Patrick Baker's "The New Brewers Handbook".
No, that was not a kit. I have nothing against kits.
Yes, I brewed a lager for my first brew. Yes, ales are easier, but lagers are not very difficult.
Yes, I made mistakes and have learned from the mistakes.
Yes, it tasted very good and was to style.

Since you are comfortable cooking and baking, you will be fine, even starting with an Augustiner.

Gebräu!
 
haha! I love the idea of random selection for cooking and brewing :)


I went out and bought my first equipment today...

Very important tape measure in inch since converting from my centimeter one was really getting awkward.

Then I went through the store with it, measuring food grade buckets and Compact fridges, wine fridges etc. and came to the conclusion that I need a chest freezer.

Bought the electrical tape, wire caps and stuff to install the RANCO digital temperature controller

and two very important "Sharpies" to label my stuff as well as a 12 oz. can Red Bull sugar free to ensure my mental sanity :)

So it begins!

Looked at extract kits today from my local Homebrew Supply... not overwhelmed with the options - thinking of an english white beer (there is Rosehips in the Kit - that sounds nice) but am still very unwilling... although it seems like a good start to go for something like that.

Will buy a new Trunk for the Horse and use his old one, filled with water and ice to chill the wort-pot.

Still haven't made up my mind on what to ferment in.

Is anyone using the "Speidel" Fermentors?
Thoughts?
 
If you don't want to go with glass carboys, and would prefer a spigot, then look no further than the very German Speidel fermenter!
 
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