Conflicts of interest in competing

[thedisasterparty]

Greetings fellow brewers, I have an interesting conundrum on my hands. This year has been a bit crazy for me.

I never considered myself to be a great brewer by any means but was encouraged to compete in a local (600ish entries) competition last year. I entered 5 beers and took away two golds, a silver, and a bronze. It was at that point I started to consider a job in the industry something more than just a pipe dream. I had applied to some local breweries before winning any awards and was lucky to get to a few interviews but ultimately I kept getting the "no experience" card played against me. It wasn't until I won those awards that I felt I could prove to the places I was applying that maybe I had an idea what I was doing.

After a summer of working my regular job plus two beer related jobs part time, a local brewery finally took note of my dedication and decided to give me a chance starting in grunt packaging work. From there I got accepted into the Brewer's Guild class for 2016. Maybe it was because of this, or maybe it was other reasons unknown, but our Brewmaster decided to open dialogue with me about possibly becoming a brewer at this brewery, an opportunity I definitely accepted.

It was around the same time that all this was going on that I was preparing for my 2nd competition, this years NHC. Imagine my surprise when I took two first places in the 1st round. Last night however I was out and about with a fellow friend who is also working in the brewing industry. He informed me that there might be a huge conflict of interest in competing in the NHC. He claimed that he had read somewhere that you cannot be working as a brewer and competing at the same time, which is his reason for not entering.

As you can imagine, this squashed some of that crazy excitement that I was enjoying, and in my mind it didn't make any sense to me. Obtaining a brewing job has not made me a better brewer, it has always been the other way around. Meaning, becoming a better home brewer may have helped me acquire the job. I also don't see any reason to stop competing as my job as a brewer isn't my end all, perhaps I want to do something bigger and better in the industry one day, and having more awards under my belt can only help I would imagine (say if I was trying to woo investors in a future endeavor). All of my ingredients were purchased from my LHBS and nothing was ever used from the Brewery, this being the regulation I know of. As a matter of fact, breweries don't have near the selection of malts, hops, and yeast that LHBSs have, so even if the ingredients would have been available to me they would not have been used anyways.

I have not been able to find anything about this topic on google, so I have decided to bring this information here and ask not only if anyone has clarification on this, but also opinions on the matter.

 

[j1n]

i don't see why it should matter if your a brewer. you aren't entering the beers you make at your brew job into the competitions. what you do as a day job shouldn't matter.

 

[biereblanche]

Easy answer - Pose the question to competition directors before entering your beers. Almost none are likely to have a problem with it, NHC included; comps that are sponsored by other breweries might (SA Longshot, regional brewery GABF Pro-Am, etc.).

Congrats on making inroads in the industry, buuuuut don't let your head get too big. There are brewers with boxes and basements full of medals from decades of competitions. NHC is not a great barometer (esp. first round). Massively successful homebrewers have flopped at the pro level. Take it one day at a time, learn patiently. Enjoy where you're at without focusing too far ahead.

 

[Revvy]

I just facebook messaged my friend Dan who is one of the NHC judges with the link to this thread, he might have some insight, or be able to talk to someone who would know the answer.

 

[CadillacAndy]

He informed me that there might be a huge conflict of interest in competing in the NHC. He claimed that he had read somewhere that you cannot be working as a brewer and competing at the same time, which is his reason for not entering.

I've never heard this. It ultimately would be controlled on a competition by competition basis. Most of them say beer can't be brewed using commercial equipment - pro brewery, brew on premise, etc. I've never heard anything about professional brewers brewing on homebrew equipment being a problem. Other entrants might complain, but I've found people will find any excuse they can to complain. I hear people complaining that I "enter too many beers" and it's not fair because I work from home and can brew whenever I want. If they complain about that, if they'd find out you're a pro they'll complain for sure. I wouldn't worry about it though.

 

[broadbill]

If you have read the NHC rules and they do not clearly line out that people employed by a brewery are ineligible to compete, then you are good.

Congrats on doing well in competitions and making in-roads into the industry.

 

[mors]

Most homebrew competitions do state a pro brewer (one being paid to brew professionally) cannot enter their competitions. This is mostly to keep it amateur vs amateur instead of having professionals competing against them (there are pro-am competitions as well for that). Looking at the rules the AHA has up on the competition website they don't have this verbiage in their rules so I think by the letter of the rule you're fine. Maybe not technically in the spirit of the rules... I would probably just continue with the 2nd round and not enter in the future to avoid 'drama'.

 

[JustLooking]

Looks like it's up to the competition. You probably should ask before entering.

From BJCP Handbook:

Entrant Eligibility – In general, homebrew competitions are open to all homebrewers who brew their entries on their home equipment. Beers brewed at commercial facilities on commercial equipment or brew-on-premise locations are usually not allowed. Professional brewers are sometimes excluded, even if they make the beer on homebrew systems. Competitions might limit entrants to only their local club members or to state residents, but this is up to each competition and organizer. The BJCP does sanction competitions for commercially-made beers so long as the BJCP rules11 are followed.

 

[thedisasterparty]

Thanks for the replies. Pretty much what I was expecting to hear. Just to also note upon: Just because I'm working as a paid brewer I do not consider myself by any means to be a "pro." It is a fully automated system and is by far and away completely different from anything you'd do at home. Many of the ingredients I do not even see nor touch. I have zero creative impact on anything we do at work. The only knowledge i've gleamed from work that I perhaps didn't already self teach myself at home is a better understanding of how plumbing and engineering work in a brewery, something that also does not translate to anything done at home.

I am, and have always been, extremely critical of my beers and can rarely tell if i've made one worth competing with. I'm surprised to have won any awards at all and remain humble with my attitude towards my beers.

It makes me sad to read opinions that would encourage me to hesitate to enter competitions. This is because i've literally failed at almost everything i've done in life up until I started taking recognition for my ability to make a decent brew. It was homebrewing that pulled me out of a gnarly depressive cycle I was stuck in during my 20s. Having that focus and drive to do something and do it well and get recognition for it is what broke the cycle of lethargy I was stuck in and drove me to quit my awful job and take a pay cut to enter an industry I was excited for.

That being said, I don't think I will stop competing to avoid the drama of the situation. I will pay extra close attention to rules and regulations of competitions I enter and remain honest to those rules if they do have a conflict of interest.

Thank you again for your opinions and replies.

 

[biereblanche]

Don't hesitate to compete. There's no drama or conflict to it. Having worked for a major brewery and judged many, many competitions I tell you confidently it's not an issue.

Judged NHC with a fresh lead brewer for a 10-bbl, chatted with a friend who brews for one of the major craft brewers. Both had entries, no issues. Don't judge your own entries, don't brew on a pro set-up, don't enter other breweries pro-ams, check with comp. director if in doubt.

Glad you're doing something that makes you happy, I can relate. Sincerely keep the work: life balance all in check so brewing remains a positive force and not another source of frustration.

Last - if you ever want feedback from a judge but don't want to compete, feel free to get some beer to CO for feedback.

 

[CadillacAndy]

Most homebrew competitions do state a pro brewer (one being paid to brew professionally) cannot enter their competitions.

Do you have any particular competitions that have this rule and still have their comp site up? I'd be interested in seeing how they have things worded. I have 13 upcoming competitions listed on my schedule spreadsheet and I checked all of the sites and didn't see anything excluding pro-brewers. Several say things like "pro brewers must be acting as hobbyists. All ingredients need to be available... no brew on premise, no commercial pilot systems, etc.

I prefer it when pros are allowed to and do enter, then when I win stuff, it makes me feel just a little bit better knowing I possibly beat a pro.

 

[cheezydemon3]

From someone who knows NOTHING about this.......

Sounds like a friend (or a not so great friend) being SOUR GRAPES.

 

[billl]

"Just because I'm working as a paid brewer I do not consider myself by any means to be a "pro." "

This is just total nonsense. If you are being paid to make beer, you are a professional brewer now! It's OK to gloat.

 

[Braufessor]

Do you have any particular competitions that have this rule and still have their comp site up? I'd be interested in seeing how they have things worded. I have 13 upcoming competitions listed on my schedule spreadsheet and I checked all of the sites and didn't see anything excluding pro-brewers. Several say things like "pro brewers must be acting as hobbyists. All ingredients need to be available... no brew on premise, no commercial pilot systems, etc.

Same here - I generally see things like - "No professional systems/brew on premises, etc." Don't really remember ever seeing anything specific to the individual person - more about the ingredients, equipment, etc.

 

[mors]

Do you have any particular competitions that have this rule and still have their comp site up? I'd be interested in seeing how they have things worded. I have 13 upcoming competitions listed on my schedule spreadsheet and I checked all of the sites and didn't see anything excluding pro-brewers. Several say things like "pro brewers must be acting as hobbyists. All ingredients need to be available... no brew on premise, no commercial pilot systems, etc.

I prefer it when pros are allowed to and do enter, then when I win stuff, it makes me feel just a little bit better knowing I possibly beat a pro.

This was just the first non NHC competition I found when I googled "Homebrew Competition"
http://shenbrew.org/hop_blossom_14/index.php?section=rules
They state:
This AHA/BJCP (American Homebrewers Association/Beer Judge Certification Program) registered and sanctioned event will be judged on Saturday, May 31st 2014, one week before the Hop Blossom Craft Beer Festival and is open to any amateur homebrewer age 21 or older.

and

All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.).

 

[mors]

I mean techically even the NHC states:
The National Homebrew Competition, an AHA/BJCP sanctioned competition, is the world’s largest international beer competition recognizing the most outstanding homebrewed beer, mead, and cider produced by amateur brewers worldwide.

If you're a pro brewer you're no longer an amateur brewer...

SO I think it's against the spirit of the competitions but I don't personally have anything against pro brewers entering beers provided they do it on non-commercial equipment. With that said there are pro brewer competitions and even pro-am competitions...

 

[hunter_le five]

Conflict of Interest? No, it is not. A conflict of interest would be competing in a competition that you are also participating in as a judge, or entering in a competition of which your mother is the head judge. Being a pro-brewer or working for a brewery does not constitute a "conflict of interest" when entering a homebrew competition.

Is it an unfair advantage? Debatable. I would say as long as you are brewing at home using homebrew equipment, you are fine.

 

[Braufessor]

Yeah - now that I look back at some recent comps. I entered:

The Midwinter Home Brew Competition is an AHA & BJCP sanctioned competition open to any amateur home brewer age 21 or older.

The IBU Open is an AHA & BJCP sanctioned competition open to any amateur home brewer age 21 or older.

Seems to be the generic opening sentence with all the ones using the common competition software. Never really noticed that, always noticed that second part about the equipment and ingredients.

 

[CadillacAndy]

If you're a pro brewer you're no longer an amateur brewer...

Ahh gotcha. That's not how I read it and was always looking for something that specifically said "no professional brewers".

"...is open to any amateur homebrewer age 21 or older..." - that to me reads you have to be 21 to enter. You can't be a professional homebrewer. By the nature of the hobby all homebrewing is amateur. You can be a professional brewer, but putting the word "home" in front of it kind of makes that a useless statement in my opinion.

Semantics I guess. Next thing we know we're going to have to get the lawyers to read the competition rules. Hehehe

 

[billl]

Just reread your post. If you mean the National Homebrew Competition, then I think you are fine. Pro brewers allowed - Brewer Association employees are not.

"7. Are there entry limitations?

a) Maximum entry limit will be determined following the initial open registration process.

b) Entrants may only submit one entry per subcategory. For categories that have no subcategories (Categories 20 and 23), you may only submit one entry. An entrant may be an Additional Brewer for a different entry in a subcategory they have already entered as the main brewer (e.g. John Doe enters an American Pale Ale, Category 10A, and is also the Additional Brewer on an American Pale Ale submitted by Jane Smith).

c) Your homebrew cannot have been brewed on equipment used to brew beverages for any commercial purpose, whether for commercial research, production or any other purpose, including equipment at brew-on-premises establishments.

d) You must give the names of all brewers who helped in the brewing. (No pets, please.)

e) No employee of the Brewers Association may enter.

f) Judges may not judge a category they have entered, and stewards may not steward a category they have entered.

g) There are no defined regions in which you must enter; instead you must choose a Judging Center when you register for the competition. Ship all of your entries to the Judging Center you have chosen.

h) There is an entry cap of 750 per Judging Center to ensure the integrity of the judging. If the cap is reached for a Judging Center, no further entries will be accepted for that Judging Center."

 

[mors]

Well it does techically say the competition is for amateur brewers for the NHC...
The National Homebrew Competition, an AHA/BJCP sanctioned competition, is the world’s largest international beer competition recognizing the most outstanding homebrewed beer, mead, and cider produced by amateur brewers worldwide.

I'm just saying I've seen people disqualified from competitions due to this. It's always best to check with the specific competition coordinator. To me you simply can't be an amateur brewer and a pro brewer at the same time. I don't think one can be a professional and an amateur brewer at the same time... I think you'll find most of these comps intend to keep pro brewers out. Fair or unfair. I think part of it is some people might look at it and say why am I entering my 2nd beer I ever made against a pro brewer's beer.... and the competition coordinators don't want to have to address these issues.

 

[Darwin18]

So long as you brewed your entries on a homebrew system and not a professional brewery system then I think you're fine. Some competitions do have language excluding professional brewers. Sorry, that does include you since you're being paid as a brewer and your job title is "Brewer". You'll have to be careful going forward and make sure that you're eligible for other competitions. I have seen one example, I can't recall his name, of one guy who is a professional brewer that was sending in entries made on his pilot scale system and winning, and who was called out on it.

 

[thedisasterparty]

If you're a pro brewer you're no longer an amateur brewer...

Since were getting into the semantics of words or such I guess I just have one follow up question to this statement. When I think of myself as a home brewer I consider the most important thing in brewing to be cellar work. If not for fermentation temperature control, yeast propagation, pitching rates, proper fermentation and post fermentation rest times, CO2 purging of secondary vessels, etc... none of my home made stuff would be anywhere near what it is today. As a matter of fact, that's the stuff that turned my brewing around.

Now, when I talk of myself as a brewer at work, what i'm really saying is that i'm a wort producer. After our system has completed the wort it gets sent somewhere else in the brewery and I never see it again until I perhaps taste it out of a bottle.

So, as long as were arguing words, by home-brew standards am I still a "brewer" at work? And, if so, does that mean I can be a home brewer and only focus on wort production and let someone else do my cellar work? I know the answer to the 2nd question is obviously "no," i'm just curious maybe your take on the rest of the logic...

 

[mors]

Since were getting into the semantics of words or such I guess I just have one follow up question to this statement. When I think of myself as a home brewer I consider the most important thing in brewing to be cellar work. If not for fermentation temperature control, yeast propagation, pitching rates, proper fermentation and post fermentation rest times, CO2 purging of secondary vessels, etc... none of my home made stuff would be anywhere near what it is today. As a matter of fact, that's the stuff that turned my brewing around.

Now, when I talk of myself as a brewer at work, what i'm really saying is that i'm a wort producer. After our system has completed the wort it gets sent somewhere else in the brewery and I never see it again until I perhaps taste it out of a bottle.

So, as long as were arguing words, by home-brew standards am I still a "brewer" at work? And, if so, does that mean I can be a home brewer and only focus on wort production and let someone else do my cellar work? I know the answer to the 2nd question is obviously "no," i'm just curious maybe your take on the rest of the logic...

I'm just saying by definition a professional cannot be an amateur. Now I have met plenty of professional brewers who are amateurish in their brewing (read as unprofessional or lacking knowledge.) I would say you've been presented a choice. Contact the competitions you wish to enter and ask them what they think or don't contact them and enter anyways as the odds of being 'caught' are low as most people don't care about it.