Looks very similar to my screenmotobrewer said:
What size cooler are you using.
If that isn't it maybe I'm crushing too fine...
Coleman Xtreme Mash Tun, How to do?
- Thread starter ben2904
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
What size cooler are you using.
If that isn't it maybe I'm crushing too fine...
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
52 quart.
i use the homebrew store's mill - gap is set at 0.40
i use the homebrew store's mill - gap is set at 0.40
breckenridge
Lurker
Huh. Are you sparging by gravity or pump? I found that pumping got me stuck sparges with my setup (Coleman Xtreme 36 qt + bazooka screen), but gravity got every last drop (to within maybe 3-4 oz) with no problems.
Granted, I've only done the one brew on it, and it was a stout, so I couldn't really determine clarity when I vorlaufed, but still I see no reason to change from bazooka to manifold - switching to gravity drain is easier.
#1 - which bazooka screen are you using?
I am not sure about the exact size and I didn't have time to check it out after work.
#2 - am presuming it is removable for easier cleaning?
It is easily removable.
#3 - regarding the size and how far off the bottom it sits - I understand that as far as drainage and amount of wort collected goes, you don't have to account for the water that sits below the false bottom, but what about the amount of strike water and your water to grist ratio? seems to me that you would have at least a gallon sitting under there and would have to account for that.
for example, for 10 lbs at 1.5 qts/lb, I would strike with 15 quarts. if you did the same, 4 quarts of that wouldn't be mixing with the grain, so it would be like striking 1.1 qts/lb. not a bad ratio, but thicker than what was calculated
I used a Zapap setup for a batch and didn't think of that until I started trying to mix my cement mash
I programmed the dead space in the mash tun into Beersmith to adjust the volumes.
Not taking it personally. Just trying to prevent people from making same mistakes. Look a few posts down from yours. takes him an hour to drain (total) where it take the CPVC manifold less than 10 min. the reason it takes so long with the bazooka tube like he is using is it gets gunk on it and it is harder for the wort to work its way through. I can not speak for the one that covers the whole bottom but it looks pretty good
Am kind of curious how yours came apart with all the grain on it. I can see it happening if accidentally while stirring the grain in.
Am kind of curious how yours came apart with all the grain on it. I can see it happening if accidentally while stirring the grain in.
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
well, i have a bazooka screen, and it takes me a few minutes to drain.
but that's just me.
but that's just me.
My experience has been similar.
Beernik
Well-Known Member
One of my dead-end elbows didn't fit together tight. It came apart while adding a decoction back to the MLT to raise the mash temp. After that incident, I wrapped the pipe in Teflon tape to make the elbow fit tighter.
With my bazooka, I drain the MLT more-or-less at the same speed I did with the CPVC manifold. It's only the vorlof that takes me longer.
I'm thinking the issue is that my bazooka only extends half way the length of the tun. (see the picture I posted before)
Just to be sure I am going to try easing up on my crush this weekend and see if that lets me run faster and how it impacts efficiency/clarity.
Just to be sure I am going to try easing up on my crush this weekend and see if that lets me run faster and how it impacts efficiency/clarity.
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
that's probably not the issue. mine only goes about the same length.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
Have you thought of tossing in a false bottom over top of that bazooka to stop more grain from clogging it and then you can still grind fine . that is why I use the nylon paint strainer over my filter system .
highgravitybacon
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I'm done with the stainless braid. It's a disaster. I just spent 3 hours waiting for a 1.046 beer to lauter correctly. It was a farce. If the bazooka screen is working, forge on. I'm going with a cpvc setup from here on out.
Any issues with having aluminum in the mash tun? I wanted to experiment with putting a screen on top of my CPVC/copper pipe manifold. Just for fun (nah, really to see if there's any impact on efficiency).
I would not use Aluminum, it dissolves in both acids and alkali. Since the mash is acidic, it will create all kinds of interesting Aluminum salts.
But why? Doesn't your manifold work well enough? I also have an extreme with a cpvc manifold with 1/8" slots and I get very little grain after vorlaufing. And I mill quite fine @0.034" for Barley and 0.028" for rye/wheat/flakes, etc. Efficiency is 85%, easily, with 2 batch sparges of equal volume.
I would not use Aluminum, it dissolves in both acids and alkali. Since the mash is acidic, it will create all kinds of interesting Aluminum salts.
But why? Doesn't your manifold work well enough? I also have an extreme with a cpvc manifold with 1/8" slots and I get very little grain after vorlaufing. And I mill quite fine @0.034" for Barley and 0.028" for rye/wheat/flakes, etc. Efficiency is 85%, easily, with 2 batch sparges of equal volume.
My efficiency is just not as good as I would like. After batch sparring my final run off is still very swet; depending on the beer it can be around 1.030 or more. Any suggestions?
Grain crush typically determines 90% of your efficiency, given that all other mash parameters are within target range, pH, temp, water/grain ratio, stirring, etc.
Have you measured volumes and gravity of all 3 runnings? How do the points add up?
Assuming you batch sparge with 2 equal volumes, like many of us do. For an average 1.070 OG wort the 2nd sparge runnings should be no higher than 1.030 and is usually lower. There should not be much sugar left after the 2nd sparge. At the end of completely draining the 2nd sparge you should also be at your pre-boil volume. If you are, at that point there is, say, 1 gallon of wort left behind absorbed by the grain. That gallon is indeed still at 1.030, and yes, it tastes sweet.
Now let's do an exercise. You could add another gallon of water as your 3rd sparge (provided you keep the pH well under 6.0). After mixing, you now have 2 gallons of 1.015 wort. You can drain 1 gallon of that, leaving the other gallon (of 1.015) behind in the grain. So you gained 15 more points, woohoo!, out of the needed 420 (6 gals x 1.070).
2 observations. If you didn't get your pre-boil volume after the 2nd sparge, you should use more sparge water for each of both sparges. If you didn't reach your target points, there's something wrong with conversion and/or extraction (efficiency) or the grain bill is simply too low.
Added:
Do you stir the mash after adding the sparge water, and let it sit for a few minutes before lautering?
Mash efficiency (in its crudest way) = (extracted points / theoretical points of grist) * 100%
I'm still thinking it's the milling. How fine is your grist? Mill and gap setting?
Have you measured volumes and gravity of all 3 runnings? How do the points add up?
Assuming you batch sparge with 2 equal volumes, like many of us do. For an average 1.070 OG wort the 2nd sparge runnings should be no higher than 1.030 and is usually lower. There should not be much sugar left after the 2nd sparge. At the end of completely draining the 2nd sparge you should also be at your pre-boil volume. If you are, at that point there is, say, 1 gallon of wort left behind absorbed by the grain. That gallon is indeed still at 1.030, and yes, it tastes sweet.
Now let's do an exercise. You could add another gallon of water as your 3rd sparge (provided you keep the pH well under 6.0). After mixing, you now have 2 gallons of 1.015 wort. You can drain 1 gallon of that, leaving the other gallon (of 1.015) behind in the grain. So you gained 15 more points, woohoo!, out of the needed 420 (6 gals x 1.070).
2 observations. If you didn't get your pre-boil volume after the 2nd sparge, you should use more sparge water for each of both sparges. If you didn't reach your target points, there's something wrong with conversion and/or extraction (efficiency) or the grain bill is simply too low.
Added:
Do you stir the mash after adding the sparge water, and let it sit for a few minutes before lautering?
Mash efficiency (in its crudest way) = (extracted points / theoretical points of grist) * 100%
I'm still thinking it's the milling. How fine is your grist? Mill and gap setting?
I let BeerSmith do the math and frequently I seem to have all the gravity points just in 0.5-1.0 gal more volume. I usually (but not always) don't do two sparges; I simply drain the mash tun then add sparge water. My crush might be an issue because I noticed a huge drop in efficiency when using lots of caramel malts and wheat. On the other hand, when I do deco tigons (decoctions) my efficiency is 8-10% points higher. I actually started crushing my specialty malts twice just to see if this has an impact but it's hard to tell because I don't brew often enough to get statistical power....
Although BS' mash calculator works fine, when it comes to actually mashing in I use Brew365's mash calculator for volume and strike temp and that at 4°F higher than calculated due to loss of heat during "dough in" while the lid is off. It's right on the money that way. Funny you asked about aluminum, but I do cover the mash with thick aluminum foil.
Some people claim no sparge or single sparge works just as well as double sparge or fly sparging, but I haven't done those. It runs a bit against my scientific background and common extraction methods.
Wheat and rye kernels are small, so a tighter mill setting is definitely in place. Have you measured the gap? Caramels (and carapils!) are quite hard and need the right pressure to crack. Running through a wide gap twice still won't crush them properly. I use an old, regular credit card as a quick gauge. If it's tight but I can still remove it it is at 0.034" on 1.5" rollers (MM2). American Express' junk mail cards are around 0.028", good for wheat. Rye, buckwheat, triticale and other small kernel grains I like to mill even lower. Batch sparging is not that critical and fairly fine grist won't get you a stuck sparge or channeling like fly sparging does.
"Deco tigons" have longer contact time allowing the larger pieces to break down more. A finer grind works better though. If the wort and enzymes can't get to the center of the grain pieces, it can't break down the starch and extract sugar. Simple physics.
Try tinkering with finer milling and your efficiency will go up. I read somewhere "set the mill so tight that it will scare you, then ease up a notch."
Although BS' mash calculator works fine, when it comes to actually mashing in I use Brew365's mash calculator for volume and strike temp and that at 4°F higher than calculated due to loss of heat during "dough in" while the lid is off. It's right on the money that way. Funny you asked about aluminum, but I do cover the mash with thick aluminum foil.
Some people claim no sparge or single sparge works just as well as double sparge or fly sparging, but I haven't done those. It runs a bit against my scientific background and common extraction methods.
Wheat and rye kernels are small, so a tighter mill setting is definitely in place. Have you measured the gap? Caramels (and carapils!) are quite hard and need the right pressure to crack. Running through a wide gap twice still won't crush them properly. I use an old, regular credit card as a quick gauge. If it's tight but I can still remove it it is at 0.034" on 1.5" rollers (MM2). American Express' junk mail cards are around 0.028", good for wheat. Rye, buckwheat, triticale and other small kernel grains I like to mill even lower. Batch sparging is not that critical and fairly fine grist won't get you a stuck sparge or channeling like fly sparging does.
"Deco tigons" have longer contact time allowing the larger pieces to break down more. A finer grind works better though. If the wort and enzymes can't get to the center of the grain pieces, it can't break down the starch and extract sugar. Simple physics.
Try tinkering with finer milling and you're efficiency will go up. I read somewhere "set the mill so tight that it will scare you, then ease up a notch."
Yeah, my scientific background sometimes also comes through when I read some posts on this forum
Maybe I'll simply split the spare water in half next time and sparge twice. Do you give the mash time to rest before draining? In addition to longer contact time all starches will be released during the deco tigons and will be available to the enzymes in the main mash again If it wasn't that much work I'd do them all the time!I have a fancy set of Feeler gauges from HFT and it tells me that I'm at 0.035 I think. The only reason why I don't change the gap is pure laziness
but maybe I should try that. Or get a food processor. :rockin:
Yeah, my scientific background sometimes also comes through when I read some posts on this forum
I have a fancy set of Feeler gauges from HFT and it tells me that I'm at 0.035 I think. The only reason why I don't change the gap is pure laziness
Sparging twice only makes sense. But make sure to keep that pH in check, particularly on the 2nd sparge, as most wort has been drained already, and depending on the alkalinity of the water, it can buffer out whatever acidity was left in no time. That's where a few ml of your new pint of phosphoric acid comes in, in diluted form that is.
After good stirring I let the sparge settle out for a few minutes. 1-2 max, we need to get brewing.
That's a really fancy set of gauges for a brewer. :rockin:
Make sure that drill is unplugged when gauging that gap. Is that a Monster Mill you have? running at around 150 rpm? A 0.035" gap should work fine, but try a bit finer and see what happens. The knurl also plays a role as does grain conditioning. I conditioned only once and it was not convincingly better. The smaller grains (wheat, rye, etc.) need a narrower gap or they'll drop through uncrushed. Take a look at your crush for fineness, the amount of powder and whole kernels. I'd take some powder over kernels in the mash, any day. Those BIAB guys do go mighty fine and their efficiency is highest, but they have a large safety net.
Dude, I don't need no stinkin' drill! I have built this contraption from a garage door opener:
I actually use Bru N water for my water since I'm building it all from RO... I'll crank down that gap since I have plenty of rice hulls to fluff up the mash
Dude, you sure that isn't a hamster cage?
Since you've got the new model Monster Mill without the thumb screws, there literally is no reason not to tinker with that excenter. If you end up needing rice hulls with 100% barley grist, you've taken the gap a bit too far and you're grinding the knurls.
Since you've got the new model Monster Mill without the thumb screws, there literally is no reason not to tinker with that excenter. If you end up needing rice hulls with 100% barley grist, you've taken the gap a bit too far and you're grinding the knurls.
This thread is relative to my interests. 
I'm about to build a new mash tun. Included are expert drawings of:
A. What I have now. The holes are small; the size of the little drill bit that comes with a Dremel, and are drilled top and bottom. I get no debris and no stuck sparges. My efficiency is high 70s to low 80s. This works.
B. An easier build.
C. A really easy build.
Thoughts?
I'm about to build a new mash tun. Included are expert drawings of:
A. What I have now. The holes are small; the size of the little drill bit that comes with a Dremel, and are drilled top and bottom. I get no debris and no stuck sparges. My efficiency is high 70s to low 80s. This works.
B. An easier build.
C. A really easy build.
Thoughts?
Just built this for my 70Qt Xtreme MLT today. (Yes I took the stickers off... )
)
This thread is relative to my interests.
I'm about to build a new mash tun. Included are expert drawings of:
A. What I have now. The holes are small; the size of the little drill bit that comes with a Dremel, and are drilled top and bottom. I get no debris and no stuck sparges. My efficiency is high 70s to low 80s. This works.
B. An easier build.
C. A really easy build.
Thoughts?
For batch sparging pretty much anything works, a, b, or c are all fine. Sugars are being dissolved when stirring in the sparge water. Then you just want to drain it.
For fly sparging however, a manifold is needed and the design has to meet certain criteria to prevent channeling. Neither a, b, or c would work well.
Here's mine made out of cpvc in a 52qt Coleman Extreme. The manifold is shown upside down, of course.
