Cold Plate Jockey Box: Why cant the plate be wet?

[timwilde]

Ok, I've been researching for a few months and finally comes down to this.

I'm planning on making a jockey box, there's limited space in the box, so about the most I can get coil-wise would be about 35'. So, it's looking like the cold plate would be the easiest.

The plan is 2 cold plates running 2 products; each of the beers would run through both plates. First plate would cool the beer significantly the 2nd plate would take it all the way down to cold.

The question I have, does anyone know why the jockey box must keep the drain open and keep the plate from being submerged? It seems to be counter-intuitive as water would increase the contact of cold to the plate, in addition, the water would prevent the plate from getting too cold. But everything I read says to keep the drain open and monitor ice, punch down bridging ice, etc. And the only source for all that seems to be micromatic; which isn't making its reasoning very clear.

Anyone have a guess on this?

BTW: I did search the forum on this and didn't find an answer.

 

[Konadog]

My guess is that if it has water around it, it will warm up and insulate the cold plate as warm beer flows. Once the flow of beer stops, it will cool down again. If there is no water, the ice will melt and drain, keeping ice against the cold plate, not water.

 

[tmendick]

My reasoning is that the less water there is, the higher percentage of ice vs water. Therefore the water that is still there and in contact with the plate is colder than it would be otherwise.

 

[BrewerBrad82]

There is no need for two plates. One works perfectly fine, even on hot summer days when the keg is very warm, I have been using mine for years with no issue. I have no idea why you would let the water drain out, that is quite counter intuitive to me. The plate is submerged in ice and water, so it has 100% of the surface area in contact. As long as there is still ice in the cooler, the water will be very cold.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Also you can buy cold plates with two channels. Two beers.

The question is what's your flow rate of beer, gallons per minute?

Chill plates are great for small to large parties. Whereas the coils are better when you have large crowds and a constant flow of beer being served.

The kegs should be chilled during dispense time or you may have issues with line balancing and foamy beer.

You need to put a lot of thought into your line balancing; keg to plate, plate to faucet, and the beer line sizing in between and the length of the lines themselves.

One Very Important Thing. - Tap the keg and pour the beer before dropping your bag of ice on the chill plate. If you have water, beer line cleaner or sanitizer in the chill plate it will freeze. I learned this the hard way.
[emoji35]

 

[timwilde]

Well, this will be for a fairly large party, spanning multiple days. It's a camping event, but replenishing ice in the box will be easy to do. However, keeping multiple kegs chilled will not.

I'm converting a 5 gallon whiskey barrel into a jocky box. Space is limited, and knowing the thermal properties, the cold plate should be twice as effective as a coil at the same length. Since they average around 18ft of lines, this would be as effective as a 36ft coil. The other problem is space, getting two coils 36ft in size will be tricky at best, however, the cold plate will fit with tons of room to spare.

The line of thinking with the 2 plates is that going from keg to plate will provide a first stage of cooling the beer flowing through the line, the outlet of plate 1 would feed into the inlet of plate 2 for each of the lines. Idea here is 2 taps, so 2 two pass cold plates would be used. So each line would effectively get through 2 cold plates prior to reaching the tap. Increasing the effectiveness of the chilling, and eliminating the need for keeping the kegs chilled.

Sorry, forgot to answer the flow rate. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. It will spike during the party but taper off to virtually none during the day and occasionally outside the party times. Primary use is for SCA events, hence camping and mostly party time at night. Unsure of usage since this will be a secondary system with alternative beverages to the commercial stuff the group buys. Secondarily, we wouldn't be talking gallons per minute...maybe 5-7 pints per hour at a backyard bbq.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Sounds like the chill plate will work well if the average servings per hour is less than 20-30 beers.

Typically the problem with serving beer on a chill plate is the temperature drop and the pressure required to push the beer through the lines. For big temp drops, you need more line length, and/or thermal mass (coil vs plate) and more pressure to push the beer to the faucet. As you know too high of a pressure can make beer foamy during dispense.

Co2 comes out of solution at higher temps, under low pressure and after agitation. If you have cold beer at 1.8 volumes of co2 as it warms up it will start to lose the CO2 to the head space and keg pressure will rise. The application of co2 to warming beer is troublesome in this situation when you need pressure to push the beer. Then I worry about beer getting flat since you don't need gas from the regulator to push the beer. It becomes a game of venting the keg and adjusting the pressure on the regulator.

If you haven't bought the faucets yet consider the type the have a flow control on the faucet. You can use this valve that's outside the jockey box to add back pressure or remove back pressure (really it's only restriction). This gives you added foam control.

https://rapidswholesale.com/perlick...7_6Sw-tqpFcsFoIr4Te-hvC9wni9ROdEaAmI8EALw_wcB

https://www.morebeer.com/products/perlick-faucet-630ss-stainless-steel-flow-control.html

If I had a do over on my box I'd have bought those. I opted for spring loaded faucets so somebody wouldn't walk away from the jockey box with the faucet open. Most fools don't know whether to push or pull on the faucet, so I opted for just letting it go and it closes on its own.

BTW - Remember to vent your kegs when they get to their resting spot.

 

[Schlenkerla]

To answer your question of wet vs a dry plate. Aluminum conducts temperature quite well. Ice alone would be cooler than an ice water bath. I think somebody might have already said that.

I always drop a unopened bag of ice on the plate and punch it down every few hours.

 

[CGVT]

Dayam... Who knew that Schlenkerla was a jockey box expert?

Nice info!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Dayam... Who knew that Schlenkerla was a jockey box expert?

Nice info!

Thanks. I never considered myself an expert. I just geeked on making my jockey box. It's the engineer in me. Thought I'd share what I know about the subject.

I still struggle with the dispense part every now and then. Hence the suggested faucet selection. I tend to carb my beer lower on anything going on the jockey box. 1.3 to 1.5 volumes of CO2. I also try to have the bottom of the keg in ice or ice water to make temp drop less of an issue. Messing with foamy beer sucks while your trying to have fun.

[emoji482]

 

[timwilde]

To answer your question of wet vs a dry plate. Aluminum conducts temperature quite well. Ice alone would be cooler than an ice water bath. I think somebody might have already said that.

I figured as much, if that's the only reason though, then it wouldn't be bad for it to be in water. If the block is too cold, that can lead to freezing, however, the water would hold a steady temp as long as ice exists preventing the blocks from getting cold enough to freeze the lines. Hence, the warning was always counter-intuitive to me.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I figured as much, if that's the only reason though, then it wouldn't be bad for it to be in water. If the block is too cold, that can lead to freezing, however, the water would hold a steady temp as long as ice exists preventing the blocks from getting cold enough to freeze the lines. Hence, the warning was always counter-intuitive to me.

Either way you can't go wrong. I imagine the difference is not that significant.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I figured as much, if that's the only reason though, then it wouldn't be bad for it to be in water. If the block is too cold, that can lead to freezing, however, the water would hold a steady temp as long as ice exists preventing the blocks from getting cold enough to freeze the lines. Hence, the warning was always counter-intuitive to me.

How did this work out for your event?

 

[pigroaster]

I have used my plate chiller in Ariona for camping parties for years. I pre-chill my corny kegs by taking the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket and stacking it on a regular bucket. I then take aluminum core-plast type material or use urethane foam that you would use on a hot tub and put it in the bucket and fill with about 1.5 bags of ice. I cut urethane foam circles with holes for the connectors and this insulates the top of the buckets. This will pre-chill your beer down.I use Pool noodles to insulate my serving lines from the buckets to the cooler. I serve at 8-10 psi and 2.4 carbonation. Yes I always vent my kegs after the move to the location and I always flow the beer through the system before I add ice in the cooler. Ice will last a good 8 hours and more. I use 8 bags of ice each time. Have fun. Get somebody to supply the ice and you supply the beer!

 

[mongoose33]

The reason you want ice and not water in contact w/ the cold plate is that when ice melts it goes through a phase change. Once it's water, it'll never get colder than 32*F, whereas the ice, as it melts, will effectively chill much colder than that. And so, for maximum cooling, you want ice in contact w/ the cold plate, not water. The water will warm somewhat, though there will be some convection. The ice never will warm, and in fact will absorb much more heat as it melts.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I have used my plate chiller in Ariona for camping parties for years. I pre-chill my corny kegs by taking the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket and stacking it on a regular bucket. I then take aluminum core-plast type material or use urethane foam that you would use on a hot tub and put it in the bucket and fill with about 1.5 bags of ice. I cut urethane foam circles with holes for the connectors and this insulates the top of the buckets. This will pre-chill your beer down.I use Pool noodles to insulate my serving lines from the buckets to the cooler. I serve at 8-10 psi and 2.4 carbonation. Yes I always vent my kegs after the move to the location and I always flow the beer through the system before I add ice in the cooler. Ice will last a good 8 hours and more. I use 8 bags of ice each time. Have fun. Get somebody to supply the ice and you supply the beer!

For this thread pictures and pitchers of beer would be good.[emoji1]

 

[timwilde]

How did this work out for your event?

Sorry, I kinda spaced getting back here. I ultimately built a 5 product jockey box with a 5 product cold plate in a regular red cooler. 30lbs of ice kept the cold beer flowing for 5 days (helped that day temps never got above 60F and night temps dipped into the high 20's) Since then, i've used the jockey box in Mexico. the same 30lbs of ice was great for 2 days in the summer on the beach. I think I was just overthinking all the usage precautions and arguments on forums.

For our uses, I think we went through 20 gallons of beer over the course of 5 days. Most dispensing was at night, but averaged around 5 pints per hour. Highest use was at a different event, went through 15 gallons in 2 nights; again highest peak average was about 6 pints per hour.

Presently, looking at building my own box to contain the cold plate and plumbing to be smaller than the giant cooler but potentially more heavily insulated. Looking to try and build a mobile bar, so to speak. Cabinet to store the kegs and co2, with the box to sit on the cabinet. Time being what it is, I doubt I'll have that completed by next month for this years event. But it should be done by summer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Sorry, I kinda spaced getting back here. I ultimately built a 5 product jockey box with a 5 product cold plate in a regular red cooler. 30lbs of ice kept the cold beer flowing for 5 days (helped that day temps never got above 60F and night temps dipped into the high 20's) Since then, i've used the jockey box in Mexico. the same 30lbs of ice was great for 2 days in the summer on the beach. I think I was just overthinking all the usage precautions and arguments on forums.

For our uses, I think we went through 20 gallons of beer over the course of 5 days. Most dispensing was at night, but averaged around 5 pints per hour. Highest use was at a different event, went through 15 gallons in 2 nights; again highest peak average was about 6 pints per hour.

Presently, looking at building my own box to contain the cold plate and plumbing to be smaller than the giant cooler but potentially more heavily insulated. Looking to try and build a mobile bar, so to speak. Cabinet to store the kegs and co2, with the box to sit on the cabinet. Time being what it is, I doubt I'll have that completed by next month for this years event. But it should be done by summer.

I once saw a trailer with a row of Perlicks mounted to the outside wall. All the kegs where in the trailer. A crowd of people would just hang outside tailgating and pull a pint as needed. The beer was in iced in watertight plastic drums. They partied outside and sleep off drunks inside. Ball valve off of course.

Don't want people drinking your beer while you're passed out or pedestrians drinking your beer at the red light. LOL