Cold conditioning ale temperature

[martinlarosa]

Hi!
I usually do cold crashing to 0ºC (32F) as gradual enough to prevent the freezer overshooting and freezing the beer.

But now I read in How to Brew that Palmer says for Ales: Cool the beer down by 2ºF(1ºC) per day to about 9-15ºF(5-8ºC) below fermentation temp. For lagers he says not more than 10ºF(6ºC) per day to 35º(2ºC).
How does this reconcile to what I normally read as cold crashing at near 0ºC ? I see the lager recommendation fits the statement, but the Ale one doesn’t even come close.

I can feel a lot of diverging opinions coming !

Best regards!
Happy brewing!

 

[thehaze]

Can you tell us where have you read this and maybe post a link/screenshot of it?

 

[martinlarosa]

It is in How to Brew by John Palmer. Edition 4.
If I remember correctly the Ale temps was in the Yeast & Fermentation chapter. The Lager temps were in the chapter about brewing Lager beers.

 

[shoengine]

Well, what were the sources for the 32F conditioning?

For what it is worth, there are probably 7 billion different ways to make a beer.

 

[Hanglow]

"Cold crashing" typically refers to cooling the beer in the FV to drop the yeast and protein out. You aren't conditioning it as such at this point.

For conditioning in the final package you want the yeast to still be a bit active, so around 12c or above for ales is fine. i.e. cellar temperature to room temperature. If storing it after conditioning, I'd chill it close to 0c to extend shelf life until you want to serve it then get to serving temperature before you serve which will depend on the beer and your personal preferences. For me this would be between 8c and 12c depending on the ale


lager yeasts can work at a lower temperature

 

[martinlarosa]

"Cold crashing" typically refers to cooling the beer in the FV to drop the yeast and protein out. You aren't conditioning it as such at this point.

For conditioning in the final package you want the yeast to still be a bit active, so around 12c or above for ales is fine. i.e. cellar temperature to room temperature. If storing it after conditioning, I'd chill it close to 0c to extend shelf life until you want to serve it then get to serving temperature before you serve which will depend on the beer and your personal preferences. For me this would be between 8c and 12c depending on the ale


lager yeasts can work at a lower temperature

I'm doing it in the FV. 1 week cold crash before bottling. But I was reading How to Brew latest edition and found this temp suggestions so I wanted to know why the difference. Palmer calls it conditioning, but it says it is a physical conditioning, as opposed to the chemical conditioning that occurs after fermentation (at fermentation temp or a bit higher for a D-rest).

After carbonating in the bottles above 20C the idea is to store the bottles cold in the fridge.

 

[mongoose33]

"Cold crashing" typically refers to cooling the beer in the FV to drop the yeast and protein out. You aren't conditioning it as such at this point.

For conditioning in the final package you want the yeast to still be a bit active, so around 12c or above for ales is fine. i.e. cellar temperature to room temperature. If storing it after conditioning, I'd chill it close to 0c to extend shelf life until you want to serve it then get to serving temperature before you serve which will depend on the beer and your personal preferences. For me this would be between 8c and 12c depending on the ale


lager yeasts can work at a lower temperature

This is reasonably consistent with my practices; a typical ale will be fermented at 64 degrees; I'll ramp it up to 71 when the krausen falls, leave it there for a couple days, then back down to 64, where I'll typically leave it for a total of 2 weeks. Then it's time to crash. So I'm getting a conditioning albeit not as JP indicates above.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

But now I read in How to Brew that Palmer says for Ales: Cool the beer down by 2ºF(1ºC) per day to about 9-15ºF(5-8ºC) below fermentation temp. For lagers he says not more than 10ºF(6ºC) per day to 35º(2ºC).
How does this reconcile to what I normally read as cold crashing at near 0ºC ? I see the lager recommendation fits the statement, but the Ale one doesn’t even come close.

As Hanglow says, you've got to distinguish between cold-crashing, which is done to drop out stuff that would otherwise form chill haze (and also at a homebrew level to drop out some yeast), and conditioning, for either flavour development or natural carbonation. Two very different things, and the order you do them depends on various factors, not least on whether the beer is ending up in keg or cask/bottle. If you're kegging, then you want to do all the flavour-conditioning first, then drop out the chill haze and then package into the keg. There's various ways of doing it if you're going for cask - bigger breweries tend to rack off most of the yeast and condition in a secondary tank, then crash and package, whereas smaller breweries tend to condition more in cask.

The thing you have to remember is that British cask ale is generally conditioned (both for flavour and carbonation) at 12-14C and then served at that temperature. Whereas Belgian ales are served at anything from 4C to 16C depending on style. But as far as British ales go, if you're trying to ensure that it doesn't have chill haze you only need to crash it down to 8C or so. If there's anything still in solution at 8C then it's not going to cause any haze when served at 12-14C, so there's no point in crashing below 8C. Indeed, if you do try and precipitate out stuff that's soluble at 8C, you're probably going to be precipitating out flavour compounds. Which is a Bad Thing.

So bear in mind the serving temperature, and don't crash much below it if you don't have to.

 

[DaleO]

As Hanglow says, you've got to distinguish between cold-crashing, which is done to drop out stuff that would otherwise form chill haze (and also at a homebrew level to drop out some yeast), and conditioning, for either flavour development or natural carbonation. Two very different things, and the order you do them depends on various factors, not least on whether the beer is ending up in keg or cask/bottle. If you're kegging, then you want to do all the flavour-conditioning first, then drop out the chill haze and then package into the keg. There's various ways of doing it if you're going for cask - bigger breweries tend to rack off most of the yeast and condition in a secondary tank, then crash and package, whereas smaller breweries tend to condition more in cask.

The thing you have to remember is that British cask ale is generally conditioned (both for flavour and carbonation) at 12-14C and then served at that temperature. Whereas Belgian ales are served at anything from 4C to 16C depending on style. But as far as British ales go, if you're trying to ensure that it doesn't have chill haze you only need to crash it down to 8C or so. If there's anything still in solution at 8C then it's not going to cause any haze when served at 12-14C, so there's no point in crashing below 8C. Indeed, if you do try and precipitate out stuff that's soluble at 8C, you're probably going to be precipitating out flavour compounds. Which is a Bad Thing.

So bear in mind the serving temperature, and don't crash much below it if you don't have to.

quick question. looking to cask a small batch best bitter. Assuming it has reached FG do I need to do secondary fermentation at 18°C plus or will it carbonate with primer in the cask at 12°C (cellar temp)? Trying to work out if secondary fermentation and conditiowning need to be two separate processes or not? Thanks

 

[sibelman]

... crashing below 8C. Indeed, if you do try and precipitate out stuff that's soluble at 8C, you're probably going to be precipitating out flavour compounds. Which is a Bad Thing.

I have formed the impression that cold crashing is very often motivated by appearance, as in "I want my beer super clear, " without regard to regard to possible effects on flavor.

 

[lumpher]

When I first started, I cooled my beers down the way palmer said: 2-3 degrees per day to cold-crash. Now when I'm ready to bring down the temp, right down to 34 in 1 step. Been doing that for 12 years or more, and my beers are pretty tasty.

 

[McMullan]

quick question. looking to cask a small batch best bitter. Assuming it has reached FG do I need to do secondary fermentation at 18°C plus or will it carbonate with primer in the cask at 12°C (cellar temp)? Trying to work out if secondary fermentation and conditiowning need to be two separate processes or not? Thanks

Ale yeast are metabolically active enough to grow at 12*C, albeit at a lower rate. Naturally carbonating /conditioning ale at 12*C/cellar temperature is a common practice. Once priming or residual sugars have been consumed, at 12*C, yeast drop and the ale goes bright.

 

[DaleO]

Ale yeast are metabolically active enough to grow at 12*C, albeit at a lower rate. Naturally carbonating /conditioning ale at 12*C/cellar temperature is a common practice. Once priming or residual sugars have been consumed, at 12*C, yeast drop and the ale goes bright.

Awesome. Thanks for the info.

 

[JAReeves]

I have been following the process described by Tonsmeire and Janish for my ales. Ferment at yeast preferred temp, my default is usually 65F for ales during primary fermentation, at least 3 days. Let it free rise after primary fermentation is done for a couple days for yeast clean up. Drop to 40F and dry hop (if part of recipe) for a couple days (or more sometimes). Keg and store at 36F, which is my default serving temp. That means that when I pour something British-oriented, I need to let it sit in the glass for a couple of minutes to warm a bit before the flavors come through like they're supposed to, but for WCIPA/PA, it's perfect.

 

[cire]

Keg and store at 36F, which is my default serving temp. That means that when I pour something British-oriented, I need to let it sit in the glass for a couple of minutes to warm a bit before the flavors come through like they're supposed to, but for WCIPA/PA, it's perfect.

If you have to store your British beers at that temperature and have a microwave oven, try pouring half and stick it in the oven for a few, say 10, seconds at full power. Then top-up with a blast of the colder beer. Of course it might take a few goes to get the best result, but could be worth the effort.

 

[JAReeves]

If you have to store your British beers at that temperature and have a microwave oven, try pouring half and stick it in the oven for a few, say 10, seconds at full power. Then top-up with a blast of the colder beer. Of course it might take a few goes to get the best result, but could be worth the effort.

I would not have thought of this. Part of me feels like I am being punked, but I'll give it a try.

 

[cire]

Try it, then come back and tell us what you find. Firstly it will reduce the CO2 to a more usual level and reduce any chill haze.

I don't chill my beers, but sometimes during winter they get too cold to enjoy as they should, when I do exactly as suggested.

 

[Beermeister32]

This @JAReeves process is a great schedule. Only difference I use is dry hopping in the keg at ambient maybe 65F for 3 days, pull the hop bag under an outgoing flood of CO2 quickly, purge 15 cycles then store at 34F along with other lagering kegs. I’m also naturally carbonating most my kegs these days for CO2 uptake.

 

[DaleO]

Ale yeast are metabolically active enough to grow at 12*C, albeit at a lower rate. Naturally carbonating /conditioning ale at 12*C/cellar temperature is a common practice. Once priming or residual sugars have been consumed, at 12*C, yeast drop and the ale goes bright.

How long does this take? A week at 12C?

 

[McMullan]

How long does this take? A week at 12C?

Yes, easily. Cask ales are very much alive, being packed with yeast cells, which helps condition the ale relatively quickly.

 

[cire]

How long does this take? A week at 12C?

As McMullan says, Cask ale is live. My latest brew was fermented until the fourth day when it cooled from 22C in the morning to 17.2 by the end of that day. The middle of the next day it was at 14C and the subsequent one was at 11C. It was at 9.3C when casked the next day into a plastic pin and a plastic pressure vessel. 3 days later a pint was sampled from the latter, which had slight haze and modest carbonation and after a week the beer was clear with a decent level of carbonation. That barrel lasted a further 6 weeks (30 litres) and maintained carbonation until about the last 10 pints, when it needed a bit of CO2 gas. The pin was tapped 10 days later (it wasn't intended to be that late, but that's another story best not told) and it took 3 days to let the cask slowly vent before putting on the beer engine. That was 10 days ago and the for the first week no sparkler was fitted to the pump. With the sparkler it pulls half beer and half head unless operated with caution. The head lasts to the bottom of the glass. The beer has been kept at ambient temperature in my beer store, which does vary, but in recent times has been close to cellar temperature.

It mostly depends upon how you understand your yeast, control fermentation and/or if you prime the barrel.

 

[DaleO]

Very useful! No idea on the yeast as it’s the first time I have used it. West Yorkshire is what I used. Between whirfloc, a quick post boil chill and dropping the temp for a couple of days after primary it looks pretty clear. Temp is controlled well. And I primed using a calculator. So fingers crossed. Will check after a week at 12°C. Thanks