Closed System yeast cropper and dry hopper!

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WortMonger

"Whatcha doin' in my waters?"
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Ok guys, pretty straight forward from the picture. Just in the thinking stage before I go buy the parts to put this thing together and try it out. I am not looking forward to cleaning my spunding valve any more! I got the idea to dose or dry hop while remembering the Randall. Please, comment on the aspects I present so I can brainstorm a great idea out of this. I drew it fast on Corel, so please excuse the elementary look. The idea gets across, and that is all that matters in such cases. Thanks for your comments in advance, now talk damnit!;)

Closed-System_Top_Cropper.jpg
 
Hmmm, seems to be there for me. Here's a link to the pic just in case. Yes, you can have liquid go into and out of the gas opening. I actually think that commercial breweries fill the keg through the gas port with the keg upside-down. I may be wrong on that. The tap connector takes modification in that the check valve piece has to be removed. The pump will have to be a type that can prime itself (peristaltic or other), or I might just have to tip the keg on its side to prime it. Like I said, just an idea I have in my head and trying to work it out through conversation. Let me know if the pic is still not viewing guys and I will try it again.
 
I think he is trying to keep the krausen away from the spunding valve output... nice idea for a multifunction device!
 
Yeah, it needs the insert to direct the incoming krausen to the bottom of the container allowing gas to easily be vented without carrying the gunk with it.

Thanks, River. I try to get as multi-use as I can in my brewery. Hence, the Sanke fermentors/serving vessels, spunding valve/counter-pressure filling tool, and other stuff. I can justify spending a little more on something if it is going to be well used in my brew house. :)
 
Hmmm, well it works for some, so it has to work. I don't know why you guys can't see it, and... that ain't no skirt! ;) That is freedom! It takes going commando a whole other level.
 
great idea, like to see it in action. So you could just adjust the out ball valve on your pump to control the speed, I wonder if this would lessen the time needed for dry hopping.

Also, how would pellets work? would the filter get too clogged?
 
I think the pellets would clog. I was planning on whole or plugs for dry hopping.

Oh, and I actually hardly ever go commando. Gotta keep the kilts clean as I can. They are a pain to wash. ;)
 
Ahhh, thank you. So, I guess my browser allows me to view it. I use Mozilla, wonder if people not able to see it are using something else?
 
Yep, I have a problem then the potential solutions keep me up at night dreaming logical dreams to fix the problems, lol. This has been something I have thought about for a while. This last ferment though pissed me off. I hate cleaning up yeast funk, especially viable/re-pitchable yeast funk. I have also never had the ability to keep closed-system and dry hop or dose with fining agents like gelatin. All that combined with seeing that a filter housing would probably work best, and now the filtration idea fits into the scheme. Just looks very Swiss Army-like, and I like multi-tools. Maybe this is because I am a "multi-tool," LOL?
 
Please excuse my verbosity, but I was going to post about this on the closed ferment thread shortly, so this seems better instead.

From my experience using my 3 gallon corny as a cropper, this is what I think:

First- You are going to be cleaning the hell out of that filter housing, too, if you use it for month long contact with the beer. My 3-A Sanitary PVC tubing that I have in between my sanke and my corny is greenish hue after one brew and nothing, not even overnight PBW nor even steam, gets it out. I personally would limit any plastic involved in primary. Transfer is OK. I use one of those filter housings for water filter and beer filter.

Second- If you are like me and are trying to ferment as much volume as possible in your sanke without tons of loss (but a little is fine) then you probably will risk gunking up the valve anyways just cause you underestimate the volume of krausen. I can definitely say that I'm not going to get any close to 3 gallons of blowoff, but getting it right at 32 oz. (or whatever that thing is).... If your intention is to actually crop yeast and get enough to make it all worth it, I think you'll have a hard time getting the final fill volume exactly what you need it to be to collect enough and not over fill into the valve.

For this reason, I am going to get a few custom length dip tubes made for my sanke gas out (which I've mentioned elsewhere has corny posts on the top cap). This way if my beer level is 6" down from the top, I get out the 5" long one. Right now, its hard for me to predict top cropping volumes vs beer volume without something like that. If I have a dip that reaches 'down' to just above the beer, it won't matter if my krausen reaches to the top like it does now.

Third- I dunno if this matters to you, but the whole intent for me is to get the full selection of yeast in the same container, so that's why I top crop and then bottom crop into the same container. One thing to clean.

Fourth- Here is my major issue so far with mine and your idea also: If I am using the corny in line to do pressure ferments, like we talked about in the other thread, I have to depressurize everything in order to disconnect and connect transfer lines. Isn't a rapid depressurization going to make most of the yeast unviable? I did hear that somewhere.... (errr, lets say Jamil?)

I don't know how to get around that problem. I don't want a poppit valve in the way of anything blow-off related cause of ID mainly. But that also makes me have to depressurize not only the yeast cropper but also the primary as well. My guess is that I should do all of that before cold crashing,- even hook up my transfer lines, etc.


And Fifth- Regarding a randall (and I think the best option for all of the above):

Before I got my corny, I was considering a "stainless pressure vessel" which is just like a corny but has 4 npt ports in stead of posts. That with two beverage lines, one shorter than the other - with a stainless scrubby around the shorter one. This would also make for a good starter vessel. For me, I am trying to figure out how to do a 'decant in place' sort of thing for my 3 gallon. I grow my starters in them and then just push it into the primary. I'd like to have 2 beverage posts with one being like 4" above the bottom, so I can crash the corny and decant most of the starter wort before shaking up and push inoculaing. I will have to do something else, though with only one other port besides gas in.

Unfortunately, "stainless pressure vessels" are pretty pricy in the hundreds.

I'm also OCD about dual use.!
 
WM:
I could see your pics but they looked like a negative. I'm using Safari on Mac. I didn't try other browsers.
Interesting device. I see it as a must for dry hopping with sanke kegs, but I wonder bout the pump, even if it's mag drive, causing problems. I think peristaltic would be the way to go.
 
SankePankey said:
Please excuse my verbosity, but I was going to post about this on the closed ferment thread shortly, so this seems better instead.

From my experience using my 3 gallon corny as a cropper, this is what I think:

First- You are going to be cleaning the hell out of that filter housing, too, if you use it for month long contact with the beer. My 3-A Sanitary PVC tubing that I have in between my sanke and my corny is greenish hue after one brew and nothing, not even overnight PBW nor even steam, gets it out. I personally would limit any plastic involved in primary. Transfer is OK. I use one of those filter housings for water filter and beer filter.
Yes, cleaning would be understandably hard with yeast gunk going into the small diameter tubing, housing orifice, and etc. I think given the alternative of having nothing though is much worse, and a lot more often.
SankePankey said:
Second- If you are like me and are trying to ferment as much volume as possible in your sanke without tons of loss (but a little is fine) then you probably will risk gunking up the valve anyways just cause you underestimate the volume of krausen. I can definitely say that I'm not going to get any close to 3 gallons of blowoff, but getting it right at 32 oz. (or whatever that thing is).... If your intention is to actually crop yeast and get enough to make it all worth it, I think you'll have a hard time getting the final fill volume exactly what you need it to be to collect enough and not over fill into the valve.

For this reason, I am going to get a few custom length dip tubes made for my sanke gas out (which I've mentioned elsewhere has corny posts on the top cap). This way if my beer level is 6" down from the top, I get out the 5" long one. Right now, its hard for me to predict top cropping volumes vs beer volume without something like that. If I have a dip that reaches 'down' to just above the beer, it won't matter if my krausen reaches to the top like it does now.
In actuality, this is not for true cropping. Its ability to trap viable yeast is the only thing that makes it a cropper. I just fermented 15+ gallons of ale at room temperature with a greatly active fermentation. This pushed over a cup of krausen/yeast out of the gas-out on my spunding valve. This is minimal at best for a cropper, but is good enough to keep my floor clean and get me a starter-sized pitch for later. I would still harvest from the bottom by washing for the majority of my yeast for later batches. The housing could act as a starter vessel post-use, and be blown into the next fermentor as you say later in your post.


SankePankey said:
Third- I dunno if this matters to you, but the whole intent for me is to get the full selection of yeast in the same container, so that's why I top crop and then bottom crop into the same container. One thing to clean.
Not that big a deal for me, as mentioned this is mainly for keeping the SV clean.
SankePankey said:
Fourth- Here is my major issue so far with mine and your idea also: If I am using the corny in line to do pressure ferments, like we talked about in the other thread, I have to depressurize everything in order to disconnect and connect transfer lines. Isn't a rapid depressurization going to make most of the yeast unviable? I did hear that somewhere.... (errr, lets say Jamil?)

I don't know how to get around that problem. I don't want a poppit valve in the way of anything blow-off related cause of ID mainly. But that also makes me have to depressurize not only the yeast cropper but also the primary as well. My guess is that I should do all of that before cold crashing,- even hook up my transfer lines, etc.
Yes, you want to slowly get the yeast back to atmospheric pressure or close to it before doing anything with it. Spunding valves are great for slow release aren't they ;)? I am trying to avoid having to depressurize anything that doesn't need to be.


SankePankey said:
And Fifth- Regarding a randall (and I think the best option for all of the above):

Before I got my corny, I was considering a "stainless pressure vessel" which is just like a corny but has 4 npt ports in stead of posts. That with two beverage lines, one shorter than the other - with a stainless scrubby around the shorter one. This would also make for a good starter vessel. For me, I am trying to figure out how to do a 'decant in place' sort of thing for my 3 gallon. I grow my starters in them and then just push it into the primary. I'd like to have 2 beverage posts with one being like 4" above the bottom, so I can crash the corny and decant most of the starter wort before shaking up and push inoculaing. I will have to do something else, though with only one other port besides gas in.

Unfortunately, "stainless pressure vessels" are pretty pricy in the hundreds.

I'm also OCD about dual use.!
I think the Randall will work great for dry hopping if the pump will work. Priming other pumps might not work unless the keg is turned on its side before turning on the pump. The great thing is that everything is all sealed up and shouldn't be that big a deal. I would use something that wouldn't trap the yeast in the housing until I was ready for such an action. This would allow gelatin to pass easily to prevent gunking up, then unhook and reconfigure for filtration if wanted/needed.
 
OK, so not so much for top cropping as much as just blow-off collecting.

Yes, you want to slowly get the yeast back to atmospheric pressure or close to it before doing anything with it. Spunding valves are great for slow release aren't they ;)? I am trying to avoid having to depressurize anything that doesn't need to be.

Does that mean that you counter pressure transfer at 30 PSI? I'm not understanding what you do post pressure ferment and still harvest yeast.
 
The pressure should be equal on both sides of the pump, so I am thinking it would after you got it primed. I could be wrong, but that is why this is open for advice in all areas.
 
Wort,

I have a question for you...

Would flipping the canister upside down and putting your SV at the top (like DFH Randall 3.0) help you at all?
 
I don't know that flipping it over would do much. By having it upright you can vent the gases out leaving only liquid. I am leaning more and more to get this going before Christmas. I tried to fill my serving keg to take beer for Thanksgiving and ran out of time due to foam in the target keg. Also, the beer was a little dusty and needs a filter for such immediate use. If I had the time I would have used gravity, but this means I have the beer for Christmas I guess.
 
Thanks for both the recommendations guys, but I don't think the inline filter would work with the amount of stuff that would go through it and the filter canister isn't transparent or the right size ports. I need something a little closer to 1/4" not 3/4". Keep it coming though people. I think I have found that the plastic housing will work just fine. I will need to order autoclave-able filter cartridges, which have been recommended to me. I will post more definitive information when the time comes, but for now we are still thinking out loud. Thanks again.
 
Not sure why you would use a filter. For cropping, you'd pull just enough from the bottom as to not over fill the unit. Hook it up open the valve until it's full of slurry, close valve. For dry hopping a stainless mesh or slotted tube would be the better option.
Unless you are also planning on using it to filter.
 
I thought I explained it, but let me detail the plans again. This unit would act first as a "top cropper" like a Burton-Union works only under pressure. This allows the housing to fill bottom to top keeping anything from going through the spunding valve I have on the top. This isn't going to collect much yeast being under pressure, but the little bit it does will be highly viable and can be stored for banking or later starters. I will still wash the fermenter yeast the standard way. Then, the unit can have other cartridges put in it for other uses like dry hopping or actual filtration. Heck, with even more housing uses available for mash filtration and kettle filtration. paulthenurse has me interested in his use on the hotside with the standard plastic housing, so I am thinking about a lot of uses for this thing.
 
Any updates on this WM? I am about to buy another housing to use with the kleenwater beer and wine prefilters, and I had been thinking about using it for dry hopping as well
 
No updates so far, but after reading more of the yeast book I am looking more for this as a top cropper only. I also listened to a podcast from Basic Brewing about a guy that recommends hop tea for dry hopping. This would be way easier to just make and add to my serving keg prior to purging and pressurizing it awaiting transfer. This would purge any O2 out of the hop water, and would not hurt carbonation since the hop water would be carbonated (and because it isn't a large enough amount to make a difference in ABV% or end volume being over 15.5 gallons). I am still more than happy to use the housing for collection of highly viable yeast (actually Jamil has chiseled that in stone with his book). No more washing yeast for me, unless I am looking for larger pitching volumes or something.

I am still curious how much yeast I will crop with a full 15.5 gallon fermentor. Will it be enough to pitch another 15.5 gallon fermentor, or will I need a starter to grow it up to pitch-able amounts??? If anyone can answer that I would greatly appreciate it.
 
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