Citra in a Saison?

[m1batt1]

So I just picked up a Saison extract kit from my LHBS today. I don't know exact weights on all the ingredients as they make up their own kits and don't put all that info on the labels but here's the basic rundown of the kit.

Light malt DME
Wheat DME

Steeping grains
Melanoidin
Crystal

Bittering hops
Glacier

Aroma hops
Hallertau


I picked up two ounces of citra hop pellets and am planning on adding half at flameout and dry hop the other half later on.

My question is are the citra hops a good idea in a saison?

Will they clash with the other hops? The guy at the brew shop seemed to think it would be just fine but I am curious to hear everyone's opinion.



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[Corey_SS]

I think Citra would be good in anything, it's a delicious hop. :cross:

 

[RonPopeil]

I don't see why not. I've seen Galaxy and other tropical fruit hops used.

 

[Indian_villager]

Citra could be fun. I've seen the lemoniness of Sorachi Ace play well with a Saison.

Report back with your findings soldier!

 

[ukeedogs]

I use it as a first wort hop addition in my saison

 

[m1batt1]

Thanks everyone! I liked the citrus notes it had in a citra pale ale my buddy made and thought it should go well with the saison.

I will definitely report back with my findings as soon as it warms up enough for me to brew. Which hopefully will be next week!

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[IslandLizard]

Saisons are very flexible. Pretty much anything goes.

I suggest you look up "hop stand" so you get more flavor (and aroma) out of the flameout addition. Citra will be great, and you may want to forego the Hallertau if you use a full oz of Citra plus another at dry hop time.

One thing you got to watch out for with modifying saison recipes is that they don't get too bitter (high IBU), since they should go down to 1.010 or (preferably) lower, and there's not much body left to balance high bitterness. A hopstand or flameout will contribute a small amount of IBUs, but high alpha hops such as Citra do leave significant amounts.

The yeast is an important flavor contributor to saisons, as well as fermentation temperature. What yeast did they include?

 

[m1batt1]

Saisons are very flexible. Pretty much anything goes.

I suggest you look up "hop stand" so you get more flavor (and aroma) out of the flameout addition. Citra will be great, and you may want to forego the Hallertau if you use a full oz of Citra plus another at dry hop time.

One thing you got to watch out for with modifying saison recipes is that they don't get too bitter (high IBU), since they should go down to 1.010 or (preferably) lower, and there's not much body left to balance high bitterness. A hopstand or flameout will contribute a small amount of IBUs, but high alpha hops such as Citra do leave significant amounts.

The yeast is an important flavor contributor to saisons, as well as fermentation temperature. What yeast did they include?

I'll check into the hop stand. I'm open for suggestions on a different hop schedule instead of half at flameout and half dry hop. Adding that many hops was a concern of mine since saison is usually a low IBU beer. Would I get a better flavor profile out of the hallertau and less citra(maybe skip flamout for dry hopping or vice versa)? Or like you suggested and just forego the hallertau?

As far as yeast is concerned I'm at work and will report back on that tonight. I'm assuming the fermentation temp is dependent on the yeast but what is the typical temp for saison fermentation?

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[dyqik]

I'd say don't bother with dry hopping a saison. The yeast gives the aroma you are looking for, and I'm not sure that dry hop aroma would mix well with it (although I'm not that familiar with citra). Just a small flame out addition should do.

Fermentation temperature should be way high - at least 80F for WY3711 French Saison, and at least mid 80's, up to mid 90's for WY3724 Belgian Saison yeast. I guess the dry yeasts will be somewhere in the middle. In both cases, start lower, around 70F, and increase to the peak temperatures over a couple of days, and hold there until the beer has dried right out.

 

[fearwig]

I had a Saison Brett dry hopped with cascade, and it was awesome. Not "traditional", but maybe better. Just go easy on the bittering.

As was said you can get the heat up, but mostly for attenuation, pitch in 60s to 70.

 

[Calichusetts]

I did one this summer...all citra. I did only late additions to keep the IBUs in check but allow the hop to shine. Actually shined a little to much, very hoppy for the first month or two. Finally few bottles were a very nice saison

 

[m1batt1]

This is the yeast that came with the kit.



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[Calichusetts]

This is the yeast that came with the kit.



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I would check out the thread on this in the yeast section:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/

Many have had good results

 

[IslandLizard]

This is the yeast that came with the kit.

That's a very good saison yeast, easy to use, no starter needed. Make sure to re-hydrate exactly according to the manufacturer's instructions. You may need to look up their Nottingham yeast as well too to get a complete set of instructions, the last one for Belle Saison itself was botched.

+1 on hiring proof readers who master the target language!

It shines at higher fermentation temps, as high as 80-90°F. Wrap a heating pad around the fermentor, and a thick blanket or bubble wrap.

3 weeks ago I made a mini batch with some left over wort, and although very tasty, it was a bit too bitter and hoppy (60 IBU), hence the balancing requirement.

I would check out the thread on this in the yeast section:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/

Many have had good results

+1 on that thread!

 

[m1batt1]

That's a very good saison yeast, easy to use, no starter needed. Make sure to re-hydrate exactly according to the manufacturer's instructions. You may need to look up their Nottingham yeast as well too to get a complete set of instructions, the last one for Belle Saison itself was botched.

+1 on hiring proof readers who master the target language!

It shines at higher fermentation temps, as high as 80-90°F. Wrap a heating pad around the fermentor, and a thick blanket or bubble wrap.

3 weeks ago I made a mini batch with some left over wort, and although very tasty, it was a bit too bitter and hoppy (60 IBU), hence the balancing requirement.



+1 on that thread!

Ok so in reading the thread on the Belle Saison yeast it looks like it does quite well even in the upper 60's low 70's. From what I read at those temps you get more fruit and citrus notes compared to the higher temps where you get more pepper, clove, and other spice flavors.

So that said I think I'm going to go for the lower end of the temperature scale. And now I'm really getting indecisive about the hops. As the thread started with I want to add some citra to the mix. The more I read on saisons I'm worried about ending up with something too bitter for the style. As I understand it the longer hops are boiled or heated over a certain temp the more bitterness you get from them. So it seems to me that dry hopping would cut down on the bitterness while getting the aroma and flavor of the hops like I want.

I'm considering dropping out the hallertau hops all together and just dry hopping the citra. Or maybe instead of the hallertau at 15 doing it at flameout and dry hopping the citra. And then there's a couple more variations bouncing around in my head.

Like I said I'm indecisive :/

Again any other ideas on hop schedule and quantity would be appreciated. The only thing I'm sure of is that I am definitely going to use the citra.

 

[klinus]

I actually have a saison with Citra, paired with Celeia, in the fermenter right now, should be time to bottle (and taste) in a couple of days. Cant wait! I used White Labs Belgian Saison Yeast WLP565.

 

[m1batt1]

So I have some terrible news regarding my saison kit I bought. Earlier this week I had a nice day out that lined up with my day off so I got together with a buddy to do some brewing. Whipped up my saison and added the citra at flameout. But unfortunately I'll never know how it was going to taste on this batch. I dropped my immersion chiller in turned on the faucet and discovered a split in the drain hose. So my knee jerk reaction was to pull the hose around and redirect the leak. What I didn't realize was that I had no slack in the hose between me and the brew kettle. So when I pulled on the hose I in turn caused the kettle to topple over on its side. I nearly cried seeing my last two hours spreading across the driveway!

Oh well I guess I'll just have to make up another batch when I get another warm day off.

On a side note I now have an extra packet of belle saison yeast and I'm thinking about doing something different and creative with it. Has anyone ever used a Belgian yeast like this in an IPA recipe?

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[fearwig]

I haven't, but it wouldn't be totally unpalatable to me (untraditional, certainly). I use a 1:2 belgian:clean US blend in my pales and IPAs lately and it's nice. But saison is different, you really need to watch your IBUs to keep the funk from making odd flavors with the bitterness. If you have a moderate IPA (not a big DIPA), move some of the early bittering to later in the boil and ferment low 60s and I think you'll do well.

 

[adamc]

I make a saison with 2 oz citra dry hop. It's fantastic.


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[Beernik]

Pumpkin Citra Saison

 

[m1batt1]

I haven't, but it wouldn't be totally unpalatable to me (untraditional, certainly). I use a 1:2 belgian:clean US blend in my pales and IPAs lately and it's nice. But saison is different, you really need to watch your IBUs to keep the funk from making odd flavors with the bitterness. If you have a moderate IPA (not a big DIPA), move some of the early bittering to later in the boil and ferment low 60s and I think you'll do well.

I was thinking mid level IBUs if i did this. In fact I was drinking a session IPA by Boulevard last night and thought a recipe like it might be a good option. But I'll have to keep looking and check out some other ideas.

Pumpkin Citra Saison

Though it sounds interesting I'm afraid me and pumpkin beer do not get along. Schafly's pumpkin ale ruined me on all things pumpkin.


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[Beernik]

I'm sure it is just as tasty without the pumpkin & spice.

 

[fearwig]

Schafly's pumpkin is way offer the top on the cinnamon, yeah. I have been thinking about a spiceless pumpkin saison, though.

 

[m1batt1]

So back to the original reason for this thread! I got a replacement kit and brewed up my saison yesterday. By this morning I had a good krausen and it was starting to churn so we're on our way. I was worried about too much bitterness from the high alpha acid content of the citra so I went on the low end and only did like .25 oz at flameout. May not have even been worth it with such a small addition but I plan on giving it a couple weeks and then sample and probably dry hop about 1oz depending on how it tastes.

If I decide to up the temps how soon should I do that?

 

[fearwig]

You can wait until visible activity dies down, or sooner. I'd wait four or five days, maybe.

 

[m1batt1]

You can wait until visible activity dies down, or sooner. I'd wait four or five days, maybe.

I'm thinking to get a little of the differing flavors from the yeast I should step the temps up little by little throughout the fermentation? I really don't know as I'm not familiar with saisons. But since I've switched it up with the hops already I will most likely just wing it and note what I do and just see how it comes out.

 

[m1batt1]

Oh and here's a picture of the beauty...

 

[fearwig]

It depends on what you want. I would say that a saison brewed at 63f for a week and finished at room temp will have funk, though it may be a cleaner funk than if you warm it sooner. The "saison has to get to 90f" thing is not rooted in good sense though, it's just something people with no temp control have obsessed about online.

A gradual rise is often recommended. I haven't found that to be a big deal except with clean styles, but to each their own. If you have temp control that permits that, go for it.

 

[Joe9216]

For all my Siasons the only thing i do is wrap a brew belt around it (approx 4 inches from the bottom) and keep it in ambient temp of my closet which is about 68F. the Brew belt only raises it to about 10-13F warmer than ambient, and Ive never had a bad saison.

 

[m1batt1]

I have no intention of getting to 90 but based on the reviews of the yeast I'm using raising the temp above "room temp" changes the flavor profile of the yeast from fruity to spices.
As for what I want I can't honestly say that I've ever had a saison or at least a home brew saison so I don't know what I want. I'm just trying my hand at it and trying different things to see what I come up with.

 

[fearwig]

You can always split her up and do a batch of each next time! But I am of the opinion heating saisons is primarily for attenuation. They are not harmed by high temps early on as much as other strains but I think most commercial saisons I have had are basically clean (funky but clean) and I shoot for that profile.

 

[m1batt1]

Update: I didn't end up having/taking the time to mess with upping the temps at all and apparently the belle saison yeast has no problem working in the 68-70 range. I was a bit high on my volume so my starting gravity was about 4-5 points lower than expected but and it finished that much lower as well. Expected FG was 1.006 and I came in at 1.001 so no issues with attenuation at lower temps with this yeast.

As for the citra after 2 weeks I dry hopped about 1oz of citra and let it set for 8 days. Come bottling I had a fantastic hop aroma and flavor shining through. In the interest of full disclosure it was actually a little stronger than I had anticipated but I think carbonation and a couple weeks bottle conditioning will mellow out the hops to exactly where I want them.

I'll update again when they're at the drinking stage.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

I use citra in two of my different saisons and have found that (like sorachi ace... in my instances) it will mellow quite nicely with some aging. You'll end up loving it i'm sure!

 

[m1batt1]

I use citra in two of my different saisons and have found that (like sorachi ace... in my instances) it will mellow quite nicely with some aging. You'll end up loving it i'm sure!

I figured it would mellow out to be about perfect. Like I said it was more than I was expecting but I still liked it even flat and warm.

Out of curiosity how long do you age yours before its in its prime?

 

[m1batt1]

Here's a look at the finished product. Just got back from vacation today and had to sample it! The citra is already smoothing out and its a very tasty beer. Even the SWMBO loves it.