Cider 101

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper that helps a lot. Only question is on the k-meta. I am only doing a 1 gallon trial batch. Based on your instructions that would be 1/24 of a teaspoon. That seems like a very small amount. Is that correct? How many teaspoons is one campden tablet?

A campden tablet is small, but not that small. They have "binders" in them, and things to make it a convenient size. If you're only doing one gallon batches, that would be the way to go.

Thanks Yooper!

I am going to crash it. I used safale s04. The sample was incredibly cloudy, and its near fully attenuation I think, and has some residual sweetness.

Need to rack it in a bit and then let it rest for a spell.

Thanks! Something different is always fun!

TD

Usually S04 produces a crystal clear cider when it's done- my bet is that it's simply not finished. If you're kegging, and don't have to worry about bottle bombs, then it doesn't matter if you like the level of sweetness.

 

[gotbags-10]

Started my first batch on 10-1 with orchard cider and cider yeast wlp775. It's been a month and not clear yet. However it started completely brown. Was planning on racking to a keg to age. Am I ok to do that or should I let it clear in primary first?

 

[Yooper]

Started my first batch on 10-1 with orchard cider and cider yeast wlp775. It's been a month and not clear yet. However it started completely brown. Was planning on racking to a keg to age. Am I ok to do that or should I let it clear in primary first?

I'm not familiar with that yeast, but if it's done, it should clear in a keg as well as in a carboy.

 

[gotbags-10]

Here it is. It cleared to this point in about 1-2 weeks after starting and has looked the same since. I was thinking about aging in a keg till Christmas

 

[MarkKF]

I'm not familiar with that yeast, but if it's done, it should clear in a keg as well as in a carboy.

I used that cider yeast. Started brown turned orange and finished clear with a yellow tint. Took three months.


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[TrickyDick]

I racked mine. Took a small sample to taste. Seems very young and "green". The color has lightened up significantly, and it is opaque still. The taste was slightly tart, with a very slight sweetness and faint apple aroma and flavors present. I am going to sit on this for several months and take a small taste perhaps monthly. I suspect that I will want to backsweeten to balance the slit tartness if that persists. I also wonder if the natural or wild yeasts had been working on this despite refrigeration, in the time between purchase and pitching, which was about a week, during which I also used the pectic enzyme and metabisulfite.
Keeping fingers crossed!

TD


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[Yooper]

I racked mine. Took a small sample to taste. Seems very young and "green". The color has lightened up significantly, and it is opaque still. The taste was slightly tart, with a very slight sweetness and faint apple aroma and flavors present. I am going to sit on this for several months and take a small taste perhaps monthly. I suspect that I will want to backsweeten to balance the slit tartness if that persists. I also wonder if the natural or wild yeasts had been working on this despite refrigeration, in the time between purchase and pitching, which was about a week, during which I also used the pectic enzyme and metabisulfite.
Keeping fingers crossed!

TD


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It sounds ok. Cider, even when it's sweet, is a bit tart. That's usually due to the natural malic acid in the cider from the apples. Think of something like a Granny Smith apple- it's sweet, but it's also crisp and tart. When the sugar ferments out of the cider, the tartness remains so it seems even more tart than before. If you do choose to sweeten it later, you can adjust the level according to how you like it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Here is a picture from last sample.
It's fully fermented and not much going on. About 2-2.5 months old without checking records.

What's next? What's happening during this cellaring period?

View attachment 1418694310402.jpg

 

[Yooper]

Here is a picture from last sample.
It's fully fermented and not much going on. About 2-2.5 months old without checking records.

What's next? What's happening during this cellaring period?

If it's clear, and no longer dropping lees, it's ready to package if you want. I can't tell the clarity from the picture.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'll take another looks at it. Seems to me it was very very clear.

So once it's clear, I can consider additions such as acid blend, or wine tannin, or backsweeten if I want?
How does a NooB go about such things, especially without stirring up all the lees ! Racking I think is in order. Is oxidization a concern such as with beer?

thanks!

TD

 

[Yooper]

I'll take another looks at it. Seems to me it was very very clear.

So once it's clear, I can consider additions such as acid blend, or wine tannin, or backsweeten if I want?
How does a NooB go about such things, especially without stirring up all the lees ! Racking I think is in order. Is oxidization a concern such as with beer?

thanks!

TD

Yes, oxidation is a huge concern, perhaps even more so than with beer as it tends to age longer.

I use sulfite (campden tablets) at every other racking, which is an antioxidant. It dissipates, so that is why it's added several times.

You can definitely add whatever you want to it. It's easiest to take a sample, and then add items a little at a time and see if you like what it brings to the flavor.

 

[TrickyDick]

Alright!

Well I have no free carboy space at the moment to rack. I think what I'll do is rack a third time to a carboy and add some Campden tabs as before, and see if any more lees drop. I started with 5.5 gallons, so I may have left over that I will use, depending on how much there is, to determine what type of additions I want to do, if any, and maybe I also carbonate a small bottle to see how it's going to taste when carbonated and chilled before doing anything.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Went to check on it today and I think there is a pellicle developing. Grrrr!!!

Well, at least I like sours.... Tonight when I get back from work, I'll take a sample of the flavor, and maybe add some Campden now ?? Maybe that would prevent the souring.

TD

 

[Yooper]

Went to check on it today and I think there is a pellicle developing. Grrrr!!!

Well, at least I like sours.... Tonight when I get back from work, I'll take a sample of the flavor, and maybe add some Campden now ?? Maybe that would prevent the souring.

TD

I'd keg it right now, and hold in the fridge and campden won't hurt!

 

[TrickyDick]

So can I keg it and also add the Campden ? Don't know much about those Campden tablets, they don't release gas or anything?

I will definitely keg it and add the Campden tonight when I'm finished at work. If there is any gas release I can put a spunding valve on it.

Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

OK. Added Campden tablets crushed in some little bit of water. 5.5 tabs as before.
bubbles started going on in the carboy immediately.
Some several minutes later I racked to the keg and then placed in fridge.
tasted the cider and its not awful.
Seems to tasted as it did before.
I had about 2 qts sludge and cider in the bottom of the carboy (It was a 6 gal carboy) after racking to a keg. I poured it into a 2 qt glass jar I had previously used to make starters in and put an airlock on it. when this settles out, I will use it as the basis for any flavor corrections or additions such as lactose, or tannin, or acid blend. I am REALLY wanting to taste the as-is cider cold and carbonated.

What is a typical level of carbonation for cider by the way??

Once again, thanks, especially to Yooper for all the guidance. I was born, raised, and educated (partially) in Michigan (G.R. but before it became such the beer scene it is today) so I feel a little connected to the members (and I assume Yooper lives in the U.P - if not call dip**** from here on...) of the forum in my home state.

TD

 

[Yooper]

OK. Added Campden tablets crushed in some little bit of water. 5.5 tabs as before.
bubbles started going on in the carboy immediately.
Some several minutes later I racked to the keg and then placed in fridge.
tasted the cider and its not awful.
Seems to tasted as it did before.
I had about 2 qts sludge and cider in the bottom of the carboy (It was a 6 gal carboy) after racking to a keg. I poured it into a 2 qt glass jar I had previously used to make starters in and put an airlock on it. when this settles out, I will use it as the basis for any flavor corrections or additions such as lactose, or tannin, or acid blend. I am REALLY wanting to taste the as-is cider cold and carbonated.

What is a typical level of carbonation for cider by the way??

Once again, thanks, especially to Yooper for all the guidance. I was born, raised, and educated (partially) in Michigan (G.R. but before it became such the beer scene it is today) so I feel a little connected to the members (and I assume Yooper lives in the U.P - if not call dip**** from here on...) of the forum in my home state.

TD

Your two quarts of sludge may have a bit of flavor from the lees- but that's a good place to start.

I don't love carbonated cider, but my daughter likes it really spritzy, like champagne almost- maybe 3.8 volumes or thereabouts.

And yep, I'm a Yooper alright!

 

[TrickyDick]

One concern about back sweetening, now that it's trying to form a pellicle, I wonder whatever is doing that if it can chew through lactose.
I read somewhere about using Splenda to backsweeten. I guess that's technically not a true simple sugar anyway?

Going to experiment on the sludge slurry tonight.

TD

 

[Yooper]

One concern about back sweetening, now that it's trying to form a pellicle, I wonder whatever is doing that if it can chew through lactose.
I read somewhere about using Splenda to backsweeten. I guess that's technically not a true simple sugar anyway?

Going to experiment on the sludge slurry tonight.

TD

You added some campden, so hopefully whatever was forming is susceptible to sulfites. It's possible that it could ferment lactose- but if you keep the keg cold the entire time you could sweeten with whatever you want. Honey, brown sugar, more apple cider, etc- the cold temperatures should keep the yeast in check, especially if the cider was clear.

 

[TrickyDick]

It was clear.

I had hoped to bottle at least some of it. Maybe now I'll carbonate and get to desired flavor in the keg and then I can use beer gun. I don't think Brett or typical pedio/lacto can digest Splenda, but honestly I don't really know.

I'm not sure what might have gotten into it.
I've been brewing a lot of sour stuff lately, so I hope I didn't get some equipment mixed up. Been trying to keep everything separate.

 

[TrickyDick]

So the two quarts of sludge I poured into an old glass apple juice jar (previously I had made starters in it) with an airlock, has now nearly cleared. I've moved it a few times, but most of the sludge has re-settled. Not perfectly clear yet. But, it IS beginning to try to form a pellicle. I wonder if my dose of Campden tablets was not enough, or if I didn't use them properly.

To rewind, I noticed a pellicle beginning to develop so I added campden tabs and racked to a keg.

The actual process was:

Lift carboy onto brewstand. Place 6 campden tabs in a 50ml beaker add water let dissolve. Stir and add to carboy (I didn't stir the carboy for fear of un-settling the lees), wait 20-40 minutes while I finish cleaning and sanitizing kegs (I had several to do), rack into keg, then dump remaining into the apple juice jar.

Not sure the significance of the pellicle trying to form in the apple juice jar.

TD

 

[Yooper]

So the two quarts of sludge I poured into an old glass apple juice jar (previously I had made starters in it) with an airlock, has now nearly cleared. I've moved it a few times, but most of the sludge has re-settled. Not perfectly clear yet. But, it IS beginning to try to form a pellicle. I wonder if my dose of Campden tablets was not enough, or if I didn't use them properly.

To rewind, I noticed a pellicle beginning to develop so I added campden tabs and racked to a keg.

The actual process was:

Lift carboy onto brewstand. Place 6 campden tabs in a 50ml beaker add water let dissolve. Stir and add to carboy (I didn't stir the carboy for fear of un-settling the lees), wait 20-40 minutes while I finish cleaning and sanitizing kegs (I had several to do), rack into keg, then dump remaining into the apple juice jar.

Not sure the significance of the pellicle trying to form in the apple juice jar.

TD

Oh, once you get a pellicle you'll have one trying to form all the time. Even with campden (k-meta), you won't wipe them all out but you can slow them down. Drink fast, and keep cold, and you should have no problem with consuming the cider before it totally goes off.

 

[TrickyDick]

Update-

OK, so I have most of this kegged, and in fridge. Uncarbed or anything, just to keep from further bacterial/brett action.

about 2qts left after racking went into a smaller jar left at room temp so I could watch how it clears. After several more months, I see four layers. Top very thin layer is a slight pellice - not very impressive. Below that is crystal clear cider, about half of the 2qt jar worth. The next layer is slightly hazy and barely perceptible. The bottom layer are the flocculated solids and sludge stuff.

I thought with a few months that the rest would clear, but it hasn't.

Thoughts?

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok so turns out that the cider in the two quart jar is cleared. This is what I will be using to determine what to do with the rest of the cider that is in a keg, and by now, fully carbonated to typical beer 2-2.5 volumes CO2.

I am planning to back-sweeten the cider, and possibly, add some "wine tannins" or "acid blend". I am wondering if I should use the carbonated cider to do the blending and tasting as the carbonation could affect the final flavor.

I am wondering if there are any suggested sweetening rates to start at, or suggested initial doses to add of the tannins or acid blends. I also have some hoptech isoalpha and their extracted essence (cascade) which can add bitterness and hop character (like dry hopping they claim) respectively that I might tinker with.

Once I figure the amount of sweetening and other additives I like, I am planning to upscale the dose(s) and add directly to the keg and let is dissolve. I have a suspicion that I might be better off to pre-dissolve in some cider poured from the keg into a bowl, then add back to keg. Either way, I am going to end up with oxidation. After that I am planning to bottle after adjusting the carbonation level for a day or two if I get significant CO2 release while adding everything into the keg. I am planning to pasteurize the bottles after they've been capped.

Is there a recommended pasteurization temperature and time to process? I did my sons rootbeer batch for 10 minutes at 180º. two bottles broke. Seemed like excessive heat. Would like to process at a lower temp for longer time - the idea here is to kill off whatever was causing the pellicle, and prevent fermentation of the back-sweetening sugar.

I realize that I could use Splenda or stevia to sweeten and skip the pasteurization step, assuming whatever was causing the pellicle cannot ferment them. With my immersion sous vide device, maintaining the pasteurization bath is actually very easy however so its not a big problem to do.

Thanks!

TD

 

[Yooper]

Ok so turns out that the cider in the two quart jar is cleared. This is what I will be using to determine what to do with the rest of the cider that is in a keg, and by now, fully carbonated to typical beer 2-2.5 volumes CO2.

I am planning to back-sweeten the cider, and possibly, add some "wine tannins" or "acid blend". I am wondering if I should use the carbonated cider to do the blending and tasting as the carbonation could affect the final flavor.

I am wondering if there are any suggested sweetening rates to start at, or suggested initial doses to add of the tannins or acid blends. I also have some hoptech isoalpha and their extracted essence (cascade) which can add bitterness and hop character (like dry hopping they claim) respectively that I might tinker with.

Once I figure the amount of sweetening and other additives I like, I am planning to upscale the dose(s) and add directly to the keg and let is dissolve. I have a suspicion that I might be better off to pre-dissolve in some cider poured from the keg into a bowl, then add back to keg. Either way, I am going to end up with oxidation. After that I am planning to bottle after adjusting the carbonation level for a day or two if I get significant CO2 release while adding everything into the keg. I am planning to pasteurize the bottles after they've been capped.

Is there a recommended pasteurization temperature and time to process? I did my sons rootbeer batch for 10 minutes at 180º. two bottles broke. Seemed like excessive heat. Would like to process at a lower temp for longer time - the idea here is to kill off whatever was causing the pellicle, and prevent fermentation of the back-sweetening sugar.

I realize that I could use Splenda or stevia to sweeten and skip the pasteurization step, assuming whatever was causing the pellicle cannot ferment them. With my immersion sous vide device, maintaining the pasteurization bath is actually very easy however so its not a big problem to do.

Thanks!

TD

Yes, carbonation does change the flavor/mouthfeel but you can still get a pretty good idea of how it will be by judging it while flat. The carbonation does add a wee bit of "tingle" acidity, so maybe go low on the acid blend at first until you determine it needs more.

Levels of sweetness are 100% personal preference, though. I like my cider dry, or up to about 1.004 at the highest (still pretty dry!) but I have the opposite of a sweet tooth. I can't eat or drink anything sweet at all, and have been off of sugar/honey/sweeteners for years. I don't even eat ketchup, because of the sugar, so I'm an extreme example.

One thing that you could do is take some of the cider and set up a "tasting table".

Make one at 1.006, one at 1.010, and one at 1.012 (as an example) by adding simple syrup in as little water as possible. See which one you like best, and then sweeten the whole batch to that SG.

Oxidation isn't an issue- make the simple syrup with water (as little as possible), and boil it up and add gently to the keg.

I can't help with pasteurization as I keg and don't bottle ciders. And the wines I bottle I don't sweeten (except just by stabilization with campden/sorbate) or pasteurize.

If you don't have an issue with campden/sorbate, you could do that. Stabilize the cider in the keg, sweeten to taste, and bottle with a beergun (or the homemade 'Biermuncher Bottle Filler'). Then you could skip the pasteurization step completely.

 

[MindenMan]

You get effectively pasteurize @ 140 if you want to wait 30 minutes. I would guess you only had two rogue bottles, otherwise more would have exploded. The lower the pasteurization temperature, the lower the pressure if a bottle blows. I had one bottle of cider blow the first time I pasteurized, and none since, so I am chalking it up to a rogue/weak bottle.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks.

So... 10 min @180º, 30 min @ 140º ( I'm guessing 20 min @ 160º) my bath only fits 8 bottle at a time. I think the two exploders were overfilled.

Thanks for the sweetening advice. I have already added sorbate and campden, but still developed a pellicle. I have friends that I want to give some bottles to, otherwise I'd just serve on tap. Don't want them freaking out with a bottle pellicle.

TD

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Thanks.

So... 10 min @180º, 30 min @ 140º ( I'm guessing 20 min @ 160º) my bath only fits 8 bottle at a time. I think the two exploders were overfilled.

Thanks for the sweetening advice. I have already added sorbate and campden, but still developed a pellicle. I have friends that I want to give some bottles to, otherwise I'd just serve on tap. Don't want them freaking out with a bottle pellicle.

TD

When I had to stovetop pasteruize I found it easiest to set up two pots. One at 120-130 to "prewarm" the bottles, then another to pasteurize at a highter temp (160~). This reduced thermal shock to the bottles, which seemed to help avoid bottle bombs.

Don't forget to wear hot pads, keep the lid on the pots, and be careful! Exploding bottles are scary.

I would just keg it, and bottle from the tap...

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for all the help!!!


SO final tasting today. SG 0.999 with hydrometer, 3% Brix with refractometer. Clear as a windowpane and straw colored.
Can't find my notes but I recall OG was 1.052 ish.

Made a simple syrup using 4oz water and 100g sugar for blending.

0% backsweetening - didn't taste like much except a watery apple juice-like liquid.

A little bit of sugar makes the apple flavors just sing!
I tried 2.5ml of the solution in an approximate 50ml beaker and was nice.
5.0ml was too sweet. 3.5 ml seemed just right. I'm going to calculate the MG/DL concentration of the sugar and add the volume corrected amount to the keg.

Acid blend. A little made it taste better. 0.15 g per 50 ml seemed nice. I will scale that up to the keg dose.

Wine Tannin. This stuff is difficult to measure. On my 100g digital scale with resolution to the 0.01 gram, a tiny drop doesn't register. Must be a cheap scale/balance. At any rate. I decided that 1/8 tsp will be good for a full keg. Adds a little complexity which is difficult to describe. Tastes better with a little bit than with none, but tastings was easy to overdose. Doesn't dissolve very fast which is part of the issue.

So that's it! Even SWMBO like the final tasting. Seems to be incredibly dangerous however since I detect not a HINT of alcohol in this stuff by taste. add enough sugar and would be hard to tell this wasn't apple juice when still.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Does this seems right? The gravity readings are they typical for cider? I calculated 7.1%... Seems very high. Heh,my notes are actually this thread LOL! 1.052 to 0.998 corrected OG/FG. The BIG question is, this was the 2 quart jar sitting at room temp, NOT the full keg sitting in a serving fridge for months at 36°, is the rest of the cider also at this same FG. I will absolutely need to test this before proceeding.

So the rest of the math... Simple syrup I made was 100g in 118ml. The desired sweetening was 3.5ml of this syrup into 50ml of cider. This equates to 1120g to appropriately sweeten the whole keg. But that is only counting the sugar in the syrup, not the liquid. Not sure how much liquid is going to take to dissolve about 2.5 pounds of sugar. The keg is full. Maybe I could dose the bottles individually, but that seems like a lot of work. Is my math correct, I think it is.

Acid blend for full keg 56.78 grams

TD

 

[Yooper]

Does this seems right? The gravity readings are they typical for cider? I calculated 7.1%... Seems very high. Heh,my notes are actually this thread LOL! 1.052 to 0.998 corrected OG/FG. The BIG question is, this was the 2 quart jar sitting at room temp, NOT the full keg sitting in a serving fridge for months at 36°, is the rest of the cider also at this same FG. I will absolutely need to test this before proceeding.

So the rest of the math... Simple syrup I made was 100g in 118ml. The desired sweetening was 3.5ml of this syrup into 50ml of cider. This equates to 1120g to appropriately sweeten the whole keg. But that is only counting the sugar in the syrup, not the liquid. Not sure how much liquid is going to take to dissolve about 2.5 pounds of sugar. The keg is full. Maybe I could dose the bottles individually, but that seems like a lot of work. Is my math correct, I think it is.

Acid blend for full keg 56.78 grams

TD

Let's see- 1.052 to .998? I come up with 7.07% so yes, I'd say you're right.

It shouldn't take too much liquid to dissolve 2 pounds of sugar. I do that when I make wine, and it can be thick as long as it can be mixed evenly.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks!!

By the way, is there a calculator to determine how much volume that dissolved sugar is going to add? For example, when I made the simple syrup, I had 118ml (4oz marker on the measuring cup) water plus 100 g sugar. The overall volume of syrup was greater than 118ml, but I didn't measure it. Since I am planning to bottle carbonated cider from the keg, I can't simply add everything to a bottling bucket.

Furthermore, since it seems that I will end up with more than 5 gallons of sweetened cider after the sugar addition, the calculation becomes more complicated. I'll need to remove some cider, then divide that into two probably uneven amounts so that when I add the sugar to one portion, the total volume in the keg will be 5 gallons. PITA!!

Another option, prep all bottles. Add sugar to each bottle using a scale and fill then cap (acid blend and tannin added to the keg before fillings bottles will not be a problem since it's a very small amount.) Foaming when filling could be an issue, but I could add just enough to dissolve the sugar then swirl until dissolved, then top off.... Since I'll be pasteurizing, not so concerned about leaving uncapped....

Maybe be easier to have my friends add their own simple syrup to taste to their glass.

TD

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Sugar solution calculations are known, but are a bit more complicated. I know adjelange (sorry for spelling) in the brew science forum knows a lot about it . Don't forget that you're going to lose some volume to lees though (cider version of trub) mostly yeast and yeast byproducts.

 

[TrickyDick]

Update,

Kegged Cider is carbonated, and has unfortunately, some "natural sediment" since its been in there for some time. Taste is clean, but somewhat one-dimensional. I've poured several pints worth so far over last couple months, but keg is mostly full, I'd guess 4.5 gallons. Having a party tonight (new years eve) and planning to add the acid (50g) tannin 1/8th tsp and sweetener (thawed can of Apple Juice concentrate) and reluctantly stir with a sanitized spoon.

I decided not to add sugar per my tasting as I thought that trying to dissolve the full calculated amount into a now unknown volume of remaining cider would likely make a mess as the co2 was released and the keg foamed up everywhere. The chilled and carbonated plain cider isn't bad, but I think would benefit from a bit of sweetening and I heard about the can of apple juice concentrate someplace on HBT.

Thanks for all the help!

TD

edit - pretty tasty! opted not to stir. might decide to add more sweetener later on. the acid and tannin and A.J. concentrate add some complexity. One friend wo had been asking about cider for years finally got to try it, and she really enjoy it she said. Not sure how much she drank, but this was a fun "brew"!

TD