Ceramic mash tun

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nylar

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ive been doing some research on what material holds heat the best. and so far what ive come up with is Ceramic i was wondering what everyone's thoughts on this would be.

there are a cupple of issues i can see

1 the weight
2 and making it so it seals around the vale
 
my grand mother has a kiln in in her basment that i can fire a keg size in . so cost is almost next to nothing thats a non issue.

fragility hmmm ..

nothing wrong with it. just looking at other ideas
 
if you have a kiln I would go for it! as a mitigation to fragility and weight I would make it heavy, and add some way to pivot it to dump the grains. I would think you could glaze in a chunk of copper for your spout? If that wont work you can always use a weldless fitting.

Sounds like a winner! now we will just need some build pictures ;)
 
Insulated coolers leach plastic molecules


NOT at the temps that we use them with they don't.

and are only suitable for 5 gallon batches.

Wow, then tell me what I mashed a 25 gallon batch of a Bass Clone in?


It was plastic and had a spigot and said "insulated cooler" on it.

It's all well and good to want to experiment, but have the right reasons for doing it, not bad information, myths or half truths.
 
ill def post some pics when i go back there for xmas... im just getting ideas now...

im trying to talk the future wife in to letting me remodel for a bigger brew room right now. one step at a time.

so far its going well she hasn't said no
 
NOT at the temps that we use them with they don't.

I don't have a source for my earlier statement but I think about it every time I use my water cooler mash tun. I think something I could read that set me strait would go a long way towards easing my mind on this.


Wow, then tell me what I mashed a 25 gallon batch of a Bass Clone in?

It was plastic and had a spigot and said "insulated cooler" on it.

It's all well and good to want to experiment, but have the right reasons for doing it, not bad information, myths or half truths.

Yeah I misspoke there. :ashamed:
 
How about coating a cast iron vessel with ceramic?

for a keg size the weight of cast iron with the Ceramic just would not be feasible for one person to handle

im just thinking on how heavy a dutch oven is
 
I think it's a neat idea. Sounds like you got the homebrewer "build something bug" ;) The biggest drawback seems to me the weight, emptying, and cleaning could be a pain. If those aren't issues for you then go for it!

You probably already know this but, a 10 gallon round Rubbermaid cooler holds heat very well and only cost about 40, add a brass ballvalve for around 10 and a SS braided hose for another 10 and you have a 60 dollar mash tun that will easily handle 8-9 gallon final beer volumes. Soak the brass parts in a mixture of 2 parts hydrogen peroxide to 1 part white vinegar for 5 minutes. No longer. It will remove the small amount of surface lead. Double check those measurements in John Palmers "How to Brew" free online book though. I might be off on the ratios.
 
im just thinking on how heavy a dutch oven is

:off:

It’s as if he’s somehow taking all of the ingredients of our food, breaking them down into some kind of gas, and then somehow infusing that gas into his hamburger. What kind of instrument could he be using to do this?

It would have to be some kind of super dutch oven.
 
I don't have a source for my earlier statement but I think about it every time I use my water cooler mash tun. I think something I could read that set me strait would go a long way towards easing my mind on this.

According to Northern Brewer, the interiors of the Igloo coolers are made of polypropylene. The MSDS for that type of plastic indicated that it is stable to 480 degrees. I found the MSDS for HDPE and it's melting point is 276.8F. Definitely lower, but still considerably higher than what people would ever use in mashing. So perhaps this does indicate that the issue is more one of safety from burns rather than safety from leaching.

Also this is from one of our members-
Brewtus said:
I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

He also did some experiments which he posted in THIS thread.

Warning: Science below!

This is concerning the white portion only. It would have been ideal situation to determine melting points and glass transition temperatures to get a better ID, but a differential scanning calorimeter is required for that, and mine happens to be broken. So I just used infrared spectroscopy to ID the plastic. I needed to get the plastic into a thin film for analysis, so that required melting it and pressing it out. I started at 100C, and it softened but did not melt all the way. Mission accomplished at 110C. If this were PP, it would have melted at 160C (or perhaps 130C if it were syndiotactic). So I knew it wasn't PP. Then I actually took the sample to the spectrometer, and the results showed a infrared spectrum matching PP. But wait, there was also the indication of some PE present. I then realized that this had to be a PE modified PP copolymer. This makes sense since the PE portion lowers the crystallinity of the PP giving better low temperature properties (this is supposed to be a cooler after all). HDPE would not be ideal at below freezing temps, and LDPE is too elastomeric. A modified PP copolymer gives a rigid material with better low temp properties.

Basically we know that we're safe AT LEAST putting 180 degree water in there....

Since most of us put in 170 degree water in there, or even if we do add more, like step mashing, we're still keeping the internal temps usually withing the safety range.

And anyway, millions of gallons of beer have been brewed this way over the last decade or so that this has become an accepted method of brewing, and since I already have man-boobs, I ain't gonna worry about it. I'm more worried about a zombipocolypse occuring in the next 3 months or so than about supposed leaching, which no one can actually prove does happen, but plenty of information shows it is unlikely to happen anyway.
 
Some of the new age ceramic insulation material used for wood burning oven builds is extremely light weight. Costly as well.

If I needed a new mash tun I'd be looking at the builds where people are putting SS kettles inside of a 10 gallon cooler. To me you get the best of both worlds. Second choice is simply to insulate the SS kettle with some insulation. You're not trying to survive a trip into outer space, just trying to maintain a temperature for an hour.
 
So? Buckets sometimes do too. But never transfers over into the finish product.

And usually a soak in oxyclean or baking soda water will eliminate it anyway.

I rinse my cooler during the boil, ane after it air dries, it has teeny hint of barley smell. :eek: :D

Once a year or so, ill soak in ido just for the heck of it. IIRC, a certain member here (rhymes with lenny) with over 300 uses on his cooler just rinses.
 
I rinse my cooler during the boil, ane after it air dries, it has teeny hint of barley smell. :eek: :D

Once a year or so, ill soak in ido just for the heck of it. IIRC, a certain member here (rhymes with lenny) with over 300 uses on his cooler just rinses.

That's all I ever do. I barely clean my tun.
 
for a keg size the weight of cast iron with the Ceramic just would not be feasible for one person to handle

im just thinking on how heavy a dutch oven is

A tilting mechanism on a stationary vessel would likely be a requirement.
 
Coolers work just fine; why make it harder than it needs to be?

Because like with any hobby for some people a lot of the fun is the process and the equipment. i am happy going for what ever is the easiest and most cost effective, but I can understand why some tend to over engineer a thing.
 
Because like with any hobby for some people a lot of the fun is the process and the equipment. i am happy going for what ever is the easiest and most cost effective, but I can understand why some tend to over engineer a thing.

its not "over engineered" until it makes it and drinks it with no human input :rockin:
 
Ceramic is definitely a good insulator, but would be heavy. Have you ever seen the BBQ smoker that Alton Brown made on the Food Network? He was able to maintain 225F just by placing a hot plate inside two clay (not ceramic, but similar) flower pots. The first two times I ever smoked a Boston Butt was using an Alton Brown flower pot smoker.

If you did this, wouldn't it also need to be glazed? I think some glazing is not food safe, so be sure you use the right stuff.

I've had two Coleman 10gal beverage dispensing coolers since the mid 1990s and they are still as good as new. I replaced the plastic spouts with brass valves and later all stainless. I even run a RIMS on one of them. I have not had any warping even at 180F.
 
I couldn't resist posting on this. I make pottery for a living. Making a mash tun that would be big enough to do any good just wouldn't work. Making and handling it would be nightmare. If you do attempt to create one you would need to use specially formulated clay that can resist thermal shock. Usually it is called ovenware or flameware. If you are really serious I would be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
 
I have a big green egg, I don't mash in it, but I will put in a pot and boil in there (with a heat stick). I can use just one stick for a full boil, which can be impossible just about any other way. I know this isn't exactly what you're thinking, but why not mash in a cooler in an egg (or other pottery)?
 
I couldn't resist posting on this. I make pottery for a living. Making a mash tun that would be big enough to do any good just wouldn't work. Making and handling it would be nightmare. If you do attempt to create one you would need to use specially formulated clay that can resist thermal shock. Usually it is called ovenware or flameware. If you are really serious I would be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

They were talking about using a kiln to ceramic coat a metal mash tun.
 
:off:

It’s as if he’s somehow taking all of the ingredients of our food, breaking them down into some kind of gas, and then somehow infusing that gas into his hamburger. What kind of instrument could he be using to do this?

It would have to be some kind of super dutch oven.

mmmmm assburgers!!! :rockin:
 
It has to do with the zombipocalypse or something, but MAN there has been a ton of necro thread posting by first timers, raising long dead posts (some with very obscure topics.) Or else some spammers are really paying attention to what threads they post in....But this week has to have the most revived threads in all the years I've been here.
 
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