Centennial/Cascade Millet IPA

[dcbw]

Brewing this 5 gallon batch today:

10lb CMC Red Millet
2 lb CMC Malted Buckwheat
1 lb Grouse Light Crystal Millet
0.5lb Grouse Medium Roasted Millet
1lb rice hulls

1oz Centennial @ 10%AA 60m
1oz Cascade @ 7%AA 15m
1oz Cascade @ 7%AA 10m
1oz Cascade @ 7%AA 5m

Expected OG: 1.065, Boil gravity 1.047 @ 7 gallons

S-05 yeast, Servomyces (apparently GF) and Whirlfloc.

I set the mill gap for 0.014 and still had to double-mill because the millet is so small that it didn't get crushed well. I ended up with a fair amount of flour, but hey, I've got rice hulls.

Mash schedule (modified Andrew Lavery schedule):
25m 104F beta glucan rest
25m 131F protein rest
decant 1 gallon and put in the fridge
20m 158F first conversion rest
20m 175F gelatinization rest
60m 149F second conversion rest + 1tsp BSG Amylase enzyme

I'm not doing a decoction becuase I have a HERMS system, I'm lazy, and the stove is upstairs. So I'm simply dialing in the temperatures and waiting until the mash reaches the specified rest temp, then starting the clock.

After mashing in the was chalky white, but after a while settled down to a nice clear light gold color. At the end of the first mash rest the wort was 2P. At the decantation step, the wort was 3P. At the start of the 158F conversion rest, the wort was 4+P.

Updates as the brew continues.

 

[dcbw]

Grain in the mill. The black bits are the buckwheat hulls.

 

[dcbw]

Halfway through the final conversion rest we're still only at 9P (1.036) and we want 7g @ 12P (1.048), so I think we're going to miss the target OG. I picked some numbers for the millet (30PPG and 25PPG for the crystal) after a bit of searching, but I think those are off. Next time we should probably add another 5lbs of millet malt to hit the target OG of 1.065 after the boil is done.

 

[max42]

Thanks for the updates, very interesting. What mill did you use?


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[dcbw]

I've got a motorized Monster Mill 2.0 (ie, two roller).

The end result was 5 gallons @ 11P (1.044). So this is going to turn out like an American Pale Ale or a Session IPA instead of an like IPA.

For the next brew I would do a few things:

1) add 1/2 again as much base millet malt (eg 15lbs total millet base malt) to make up the gravity. I underestimated the PPG of the CMC millet malt, or I underestimated how much the decoction scheme that I did not do gelatinizes the starches. I did not get the efficiency I expected.

2) I would try removing the beta glucan rest and the protein rest from the mash schedule. Instead, I would heat the grain to 148F, decant 1 gallon, heat to 158F and rest for a longer period of time than 20m. I would also increase the 175F gelatinzation rest to 40m. I would also do a 90m 149F rest instead of 60; I only did 60 because I was pressed for time.

Basically, I feel like there were too many mash steps and the first two were unnecessary, or at least not as necessary as I originally thought.

 

[dcbw]

Also, the Servomyces capsule didn't fully dissovle. If you use it, I would suggest breaking the capsule apart and dumping out the powder, and adding that to the boil instead of dropping the Servomyces capsule into the boil.

 

[glutarded-chris]

This looks like a good plan and my guess is that it came out fine. Would be interested in details of how much wart at what gravity you got etc.

 

[dcbw]

I got about 5 gallons at 1.044. Quite a ways off from what I was expecting. Maybe the decoction step really is critical for gelatinization (even though you're only boiling a third of it), or maybe the CMC millet just doesn't have a very high extract potential. I used 30ppg for the millet, and I don't think I got more than 20ppg out of it.

Which makes me wonder, has anyone gotten reliable numbers on PPG from their own experiments or directly from CMC or Grouse?

 

[Osedax]

I can help I think. The problem is trying to solve for a variable when a standard is unknown. That standard would be system efficiency. If you know yours, you can backtrack for extract potential. If not... well, I suppose you could create an integral for it but, I don't think it is that important. Also, you may not be getting 100% conversion.

Based on my anecdotal evidence I come up with 1.015 for CMC pale malt and 1.025 for Grouse pale with a system efficiency estimated at 70%. This gives me a mash efficiency of 72% consitantly. Again, all of this is estimated but, if I keep using the same numbers I can predict the OG within a few points.

Ask CMC for their malt analysis. They will provide it. Grouse doesn't have any that I know of yet.

For roasted and heavily killed malts I remove 1-5 points depending on SRM. I can provide all of my numbers if you would like.

Looks like a solid recipe. Definitely come back with tasting notes! Did you have any lautering problems? Also, I recommend to double mill the millet at .010. This borders on stuck sparge and good efficiency on my system. Just don't do the buckwheat that low.

Dry hop that thing and you will have a tasty brew!

 

[glutarded-chris]

You will get a little more yield from the grouse white millet than CMC red millet but i like both. I use 20 to 25% buckwheat which i suspect hurts the overall potential and i am getting 22 ppg to 26 ppg. You can just juice it up with some maltodextrin, belgian candy syrup and/or honey to get into 1.060 territory. I think some combination of those are necessary and allows you the flexibility to collect a little thinner wart and not have to boil like hell.


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[neumema]

I got about 5 gallons at 1.044. Quite a ways off from what I was expecting. Maybe the decoction step really is critical for gelatinization (even though you're only boiling a third of it), or maybe the CMC millet just doesn't have a very high extract potential. I used 30ppg for the millet, and I don't think I got more than 20ppg out of it.

Which makes me wonder, has anyone gotten reliable numbers on PPG from their own experiments or directly from CMC or Grouse?

I'm going to take advantage of your post to share where I'm at with everything. I've been hoping there are more all grain GF folks on here, as I've been lurking for a while. I hope we can spark some discussion & recipe sharing.

I've been doing some 3 gallon all grain test batches with both Grouse and CMC millet. I'll move up to 5 gallon once I'm comfortable with a process and the taste of the finished product. I'm four batches in at this point and will continue doing one every two-three weeks. I'm looking to avoid bumping the SG with adjuncts, so I've been tinkering with recipes to get it right.

I have the red millet spec sheet from CMC and it says 24.6-32.5 ppg depending on your grind. 24.6 for coarse and 32.5 for fine.

I follow Lavery's method pretty much to a T now. I think you are misreading his instruction, as I believe he's saying to boil the entire mash (outside of what you decant off the top and place in the fridge). I am strictly BIAB at this point as I don't have that much brewing experience. I also think with all these mash steps (and the fine grind) that it might be the only way to go. I'm using a Corona mill and single grinding, but I'm about to start double grinding. I want to get my money's worth out of these grains as they aren't cheap to buy/ship to Atlanta.

Here's my results so far (all 3 gallon) -

Recipe 1 (Pale Ale) - 7.5 lb pale (Grouse), 1.5 lb munich (CMC), 12 oz crystal 20 (CMC). I hopped with cascade & amarillo. S-05 yeast. My SG was 1.056 and it finished at 1.012. Decent beer, but I felt like it was a bit thin in the body. Used SEbrew-L and Amylase in my 90 min final mash step. No sparge.

Recipe 2 (Pale Ale) - same recipe. My SG was 1.063. With this batch, I reduced my mash water and added a sparge step. Picked up points and didn't use any enzymes. Unfortunately, I made the fatal flaw of cold crashing with a blow off tube still attached and had a large amount of starsan suck back. Didn't ever get to taste. Live & learn.

Recipe 3 (Pale Ale) - same recipe. I kept my process the same on this one, except for dropping a secondary. Three week ferment and dry hopped in primary and then went straight to keg (where it is carbing now). My SG was 1.053. I had to use 2.5 lb CMC pale as I didn't have 7.5 lb of straight Grouse pale on this one. That could explain the drop in points. Tasted this beer before dry hopping and it tastes excellent.

Recipe 4 (Blonde Ale) - 6 lb Pale (CMC), 10 oz colo pils (CMC), 7 oz crystal 20 (CMC), 7 oz vienna (CMC). Hopped with centennial & cascade. Nottingham yeast. My SG was 1.039. Big drop on this one, but I also reduced the amount of grain as to not make a 5%+ blonde ale. Made the poor decision to mash for 60 minutes instead of 90, so that could have contributed as well. This batch is only a couple days in at this point. Worked with what I had, but it's too dark to be a blonde.

Next up is a brown ale with pale, crystal 60, oats, munich, and chocolate.

 

[Osedax]

Welcome!

Good data points. You are actually getting very good efficiency for this technique. It probably has a lot to do with the corona mill and BIAB. You can basically turn the malt into flour. Good stuff though.

CMC gave me the same malt sheet. I think you might mean 24.6-32.5%. Normally a malt analysis is done in percent extract. That would equate to 11.3-15ppg.

You could try adding buckwheat, oats, or maltodextrin for body.

Interested to see how these turn out.

 

[dcbw]

I used these resources in trying to get numbers for millet and buckwheat PPG:

1) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/millet-stats-463509/#post5992345

2) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2010.tb00410.x/pdf

Congress mash (Table I), so very optimistic numbers for a homebrew setup. But millet comes in only slightly lower than barley here.

3) http://www.castlemalting.com/Presentations/CastleMaltingBrochureENG.pdf

Lists their buckwheat malt potential as 65%, which means 46ppg * 65% = 30ppg

4) http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/283561

Doesn't list any sources, but says extract for Buckwheat (malt, I assume) is 32ppg

---

So obviously, you *can* get higher extract potentials from millet and buckwheat. But there are of course two factors that aren't known without some lab tests, and those are:

1) my mash procedure was probably sub-optimal and I likely didn't completely gelatinize the millet and buckwheat

2) we have no idea what the PPG/extract potential of the different malts from the various suppliers actually is, and some anectodal evidence posted by people in this thread and other threads indicates there can be significant difference in extract potential between suppliers

Who's set up to do a test Congress mash?

 

[dcbw]

Kegged today. Color is straw blonde, like a golden lager. Hydrometer sample tasted pretty good, though I can definitely taste the millet (duh) which is the same taste as when you chew the malt itself. Good body, should be further enhanced by carbonation.

1.044 -> 1.010 = 4.45% ABV

So a pretty solid hoppy pale ale, it seems. I'll post another update when it's carbonated and aged a bit.

 

[dcbw]

The millet taste has faded somewhat but it's still there as a background bitterness that's not hop like. That aside, I think it tastes quite good and I'm happy with the resulting beer. I would definitely brew this again.

 

[Osedax]

Awesome! Glad to hear this worked out for you. We don't have enough all grainers in the gluten free section.

What would you say is the millet taste? Some say popcorn. I say it tastes very grassy. Not unpleasant just not a taste you want in beer.

 

[nitton]

Does CMC millet still come with a lot of the rootlets attached? Last time I used their malt (~2012) I spent a long time sifting and winnowing to get rid of them, because otherwise the taste was rather unpleasant and grassy. Once cleaned up, I ended up with pleasant-tasting wort and beer. The two-hour boil may or may not have helped with that.

 

[dcbw]

Does CMC millet still come with a lot of the rootlets attached? Last time I used their malt (~2012) I spent a long time sifting and winnowing to get rid of them, because otherwise the taste was rather unpleasant and grassy. Once cleaned up, I ended up with pleasant-tasting wort and beer. The two-hour boil may or may not have helped with that.

I saw almost no rootlets on the CMC malt (same as with the Grouse malt) so maybe CMC has cleaned up their act?

 

[dcbw]

Awesome! Glad to hear this worked out for you. We don't have enough all grainers in the gluten free section.

What would you say is the millet taste? Some say popcorn. I say it tastes very grassy. Not unpleasant just not a taste you want in beer.

It's hard to describe, but having chewed some of the malt before using it (both CMC and Grouse), the same taste carries through to the beer somewhat. To me it's a slight background bitterness, but not like hop bitterness, maybe kinda grassy like you say. But it's certainly better than the sorghum twang, which is what I wanted to avoid.

The beer is only 3 weeks old though, and cold conditioning at 34F until it gets served in another week, so perhaps the millet taste will fade a bit by then.

 

[nitton]

I saw almost no rootlets on the CMC malt (same as with the Grouse malt) so maybe CMC has cleaned up their act?

Thanks. That seems likely as it was right when they first started doing millet malt at any scale.

 

[dcbw]

Served at a neighborhood party last night and went over very well, even with people who don't normally drink GF beer. The millet taste has faded significantly in the past few weeks of aging. A number of neighbors asked for bottles, so clearly I did something right.

A question for the forum: should I try to perfect this recipe, or brew something different with the remaining grain?

 

[glutarded-chris]

What mix of grain do you have left? That might play a role.

I tend to like to do a few "variation on a theme" batches in a row to get a feel of affects of variations in the mash process and small variations on hops etc., but that is me.

 

[dcbw]

3# dark roasted millet
2.5# medium roasted millet
7# buckwheat malt
5# CMC red millet malt
5# Grouse millet malt
3# Grouse crystal millet

Given my awful efficiency last time, I need more base malt than I've got here. But maybe a darker beer would work. Throw all of it in and see what happens?

 

[Osedax]

7# of buckwheat will gum it up right quick. Better have rice hulls on hand and a lot of patience. 3# of dark might be a bit much. Same with the medium. If you use that much crystal you might want to make a sweet stout. Throw some lactose and buckwheat honey in to boost gravity.

I always add a touch of coffee to all of my stouts.

 

[glutarded-chris]

@ Osedax, In the previous post I asked what grain dcbw had left, so I think that was an inventory list, not a brew batch list.

 

[glutarded-chris]

@ dcbw - I like the idea of going for a darker version since you have some dark roast to work with. Consider saving some other ingredients to boost up to your desired gravity if you think your extracted wart is on the thin side (like buckwheat honey, maltodextrin and even brown rice syrup). Even Osedax uses some "extras" from time to time from what I have seen and he seems all about all-grain.

 

[Weezy]

How are you getting the millet to self convert? Amylase?

 

[dcbw]

How are you getting the millet to self convert? Amylase?

I did add a tsp of Amylase enzyme to the original brew (comment #1) as insurance since I had never mashed millet before. So I've got a bunch on hand. I'm pretty sure my extraction efficiency was awful for a couple reasons though, and amylase was just a crutch.

 

[dcbw]

@ Osedax, In the previous post I asked what grain dcbw had left, so I think that was an inventory list, not a brew batch list.

Yeah, the list was an inventory but I did say "throw it all in and see what happens?" too... I bought the roasted grains intending to make a porter or stout at some point, but the pale turned out well enough that it's still in the running for a tweaked re-brew. I've got a full brew schedule through November though, so it would have to be later this year.

I am tempted to do a rebrew of the same recipe and perfect the mash to get the efficiency I expected-but-did-not-achieve. I know it's possible but I need to dial in step/GF mashing on my HERMS system, possibly including a decoction on the kitchen stove upstairs (per Lavery).

 

[mergs]

Great post! Have you dialed in your process yet to a point where you're satisfied? If so, I'd love to hear your method and if its been altered from the original post on page 1. Are you *adding* Amylase as *part* of the process now?

 

[dcbw]

I haven't done another GF brew since then but I'm going to be trying a stout with my leftover grain (20lbs worth) next week. I'll be using a longer mash and may try to bring the temp up to 170 to gelatinized before cooling to 152 and adding some drawn off liquid back to complete conversion.