Caustic cleaners & better bottles

[unionrdr]

It's a good thing i went to JW Dover (my lhbs) today in Westlake. The brewer had a slack moment & walked out with the clerk to rap for a bit. So we got to talking about the better bottle I'd traded. He said he used to use'em in the brewery (Black Box Brewing Co.),& he said it's caustic cleaners that're causing the better bottles to crack. Which includes,unfortunately,my beloved PBW.
I told him I use 1.5oz in a gallon of water for general cleaning,& 4TBSP in fermenters filled with cold water to above the crud ring. He of course said caustic cleaners work better when hot. He also said at the amount I'm using (which is normal average cleaning strength according to Fivestar),was "pushing it" in regard to the better bottle cracking thing.
And instead of soaking them 5-7 days & a light scrubbing,he said it'd last longer if I used a lighter cleaner strength & more scrubbing to prevent it from weakening & cracking.
As we discussed it,he remained adamant about his convictions. So I thought this was of milestone importance to tell my "other family" about his findings!
Now here's the kicker...He had a discussion with the owner of the company that makes the better bottles about this,the guy,needless to say...was quite arrogant as he said,about the product & my man's findings. So he quit carrying them. But he also said,with a seriously introspective face & tone,that he was trying to think of a cleaner,or way to clean them that would be safe & prevent the cracking bit. I'm gunna hang around there more often & see if I can help him the way I help you folks...Idk...hopefully something will come to me. I sincerely hope so...

 

[Malty_Dog]

I was completely unaware of this "cracking" issue. I use PBW also.

 

[unionrdr]

there are threads on here where folks have had them crack across the bottom. If you & any others have any ideas on how to solve this,let's here'em! Black box brewing,& thus JW Dover LHBS need you & I to solve this riddle. it 'll def be a milestone developement in the HB & craft brewing world. We have a very real chance to make a major change here folks!

 

[GRBC]

Better Bottle addresses this issue and proposes a solution on their website: http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html

 

[unionrdr]

Here's the page that directly speaks of PBW & fivestar's PBW,stregnths,etc; http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html Opinions & real world experiences??? The Black Box Brewing guy was quite adamant about it all. sounds like the solution might not be what's really needed in his experiences?

 

[Ostomo517]

I just use unscented dish soap in mine, soak a few days then brush and rinse out and sanitize on brew day of course. Never had any probs.

 

[Shooter]

I don't tend to primary in Better Bottles, only secondary. So, cleaning is done with an Oxyclean and TSP mixture, but is more of the fill with a small amount of warm cleaning solution and shake violently to knock bits off the fermenter wall variety. I'll keep this in mind if I ever have the urge to soak my BB overnight. Actually, I don't even soak my primary buckets. I use the same solution and a soft cloth to clean them. The only things I soak overnight are kegs and keg parts.

 

[TNGabe]

So it sounds like your buddy was using really hot water. I soak mine with oxyclean all the time and haven't had any cracks or other problems.

 

[Zamial]

he said it's caustic cleaners that're causing the better bottles to crack.

I can believe this.

Caustic acid is WICKED on all plastics other than HDPE 2. BB are PET. I am sure if people that made liquid caustic acid containers could use a lighter vessel they would be all over it as liquid caustic acids can weigh 1.5 x water of identical volume.

 

[Ostomo517]

At the same time if this guy runs a brewery (if i understand right) wtf is he messing with Better Bottles for in the first place?

 

[biochemedic]

I used to use regular soap and for the last year or two oxyclean exclusively (hot as my fingers can stand it). One or two times I've used BLC (seriously caustic strong base), and I've got the same three BB's I've had for years.

 

[unionrdr]

About all he said was he stopped using better bottles for the reasons given. After reading the BB link,I see that even they recommend a lighter cleaning solution. I figured I'd try using less PBW in a gallon of water to clean the lil black mold spots out of it. Then Starsan quickly. Leaves me to wonder,though,what Starsan residue would do to the PET? It is an acid sanitizer after all?...

 

[Malty_Dog]

I'm going to be a lot more careful from now on. I have 3 BBs: 6.5, 5, and 3 gal. I'm not relishing the idea of losing any of those recent investments any time soon. I have never used glass, but am more open to the idea now.

 

[Whsoj]

At the same time if this guy runs a brewery (if i understand right) wtf is he messing with Better Bottles for in the first place?

My last carboys come from a winery for free. They experiment with them man
would you want to make 30 bbl of something that taste crappy?


I like these for better bottles carboy cleaner use this thing and plan water to clean. When I'm ready to use it again then I sanitize.

edit: I made cleaner

 

[Ostomo517]

My last carboys come from a winery for free. They experiment with them man
would you want to make 30 bbl of something that taste crappy?

I like these for better bottles carboy cleaner

No but I probably wouldnt also use industrial strength cleaner on it either

 

[unionrdr]

But since BB have that hump in the bottom,how to clean the flat area around that at the bottom? And dosen't it scratch the PET?

 

[Whsoj]

You just tilt it a little. Yes, it will if the center peace that holds the arms hits the bottle, but the paddles are fleece like material I guarantee its softer than a nasty a$$ sock pulled over a carboy brush

 

[Horseballs]

As was mentioned before, caustic can really mess with some types of plastics, making them brittle with exposure time. However, as a homebrewer you won't be cleaning your better bottle with 250 degree NaOH like you would in a commercial brewery. This has nothing to do with better bottles and their quality, and everything to do with the brewer not paying attention to what he was doing with his equipment.

 

[unionrdr]

After reading replies in this thread,I'm thinking you may be right hb. He did mention,as I knew,PBW works best around 140F. Made me wonder if he left out that little nugget? I'd never use PBW that hot on any plastic. A SS conical,yes,it would likely be better in that instance. My problem is how long it takes to charge up my drills' battery packs. It's mainly the bottom that needs the mildew-looking small spots cleaned off. I think I'll clean & rinse it,leaving Starsan santizing for right before filling it with beer for secondary oaking,which is mainly why I wanted it.
I wish I'd also gone for that couple day sale midwest had with BOGO on better bottles. Get one in 6G,one in 5G. I do both bach sizes,& it would be nice to have BB in both sizes to fit the batch. I also need to build/buy a table to fit my brewing corner to rearrange the BB,bottle tree,bottling bucket & such. But still store my boxed bottles under it. A table with tubular legs would be best for the spot.

 

[stvo]

I think the cracking could be attributed to a combination of swirling or "rocking the carboy" with out the tennis ball per BB's website and leaving caustic cleaners in the bottles way too long... if I'm not mistaken its the cleaner at 140F for 4-5 hours or cold overnight for general cleaning Example: If I can use 1.5 oz of StarSan in 3.5 gals of water to take the paint off Stone bottles in 2 days there is no telling what PBW could do to a Better bottle in more than a 1 day soak??? I only have one BB which I hate using due to the humps and trying to clean properly, I've have since picked up another type from MoreBeer which is a lot easier to clean and I use more often...

 

[unionrdr]

I stil think I'll wait till right before filling it to sanitize it with Starsan. Acid residue could cause the problem?

 

[IslandLizard]

I stil think I'll wait till right before filling it to sanitize it with Starsan. Acid residue could cause the problem?

You should store them sanitized, but not necessarily *filled* with Starsan. Just sanitize and drain off before storing. So nothing can grow in them. I doubt the foam and 1/4 oz of Starsan will ruin your BB. If you're afraid of that, rinse the Starsan residue out with warm, sterile water.

Are those cracks forming along the "seams?" Are they real seams (like welds) or just edges from the injection mould?

I read the BB website on handling their products. Very "colorful" and extremely wordy but not that informative on dos and don'ts. Looks like they're covering their a$$ every which way.

I still use glass carboys, but my next round of fermentation vessels is gonna be buckets, unless the SWMBO insists on conicals ("they look so cute").

 

[unionrdr]

Even thought they're technically mold lines,even at Ford we still called them seams. Those are the weak points where cracks usually start. And it wasn't in mine,but the Brewer at the lhbs that told me the story while were discussing the BB I'd just aquired.

 

[ArcLight]

I don't tend to primary in Better Bottles, only secondary. So, cleaning is done with an Oxyclean and TSP mixture, but is more of the fill with a small amount of warm cleaning solution and shake violently to knock bits off the fermenter wall variety. I'll keep this in mind if I ever have the urge to soak my BB overnight. Actually, I don't even soak my primary buckets. I use the same solution and a soft cloth to clean them. The only things I soak overnight are kegs and keg parts.

1. What is the acronym "TSP"? What cleaner is that?

2. Is One Step ok as a cleanser for Better Bottles? Since it's less Caustic.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/one-step.html

 

[unionrdr]

Tri Sodium Phosphate. They used to use it in laundry detergent. I cleaned oil spots off the driveway with it.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,I've decided to try using 2tsp of PBW in a gallon of cold water to try & brush out the little black spots off the bottom of the better bottle. Then rinse & swirl with starsan & drain before storing it with the cap on. The member I traded with gave me that red cap thing with the two tubes sticking up out of it with the white caps for them.
I also just realized I need some tennis balls to put under the hump in the bottom when swirling,etc with 5-6 gallons of beer in it. Not to mention a plastic milk crate or the like to lift it with so as to keep the stresses of movement off the bottom. What do you guys use for moving them around?

 

[Shooter]

I've always just tried to gently tilt them and then get my hand underneath to fully support the bottom so it's not "popping" in and out while being lifted.

 

[unionrdr]

I've always just tried to gently tilt them and then get my hand underneath to fully support the bottom so it's not "popping" in and out while being lifted.

They seem to have a decent thickness to them,so it sounds a little odd that they'd have enough flex to them to cause stress fractures?...
I have been wondering about this as well,since so many spoke of doing the tennis ball thing. I thought with 1 gallon of a weak cleaning solution & some good scrubbing with a carboy brush would clean the black spots off. Then sanitize with Starsan & drain well.
Do you lift them that way as well? Or do you have something to lift it with?

 

[Shooter]

I have felt them flexing if they're not properly supported. I think just getting my hands underneath them is sufficient. I only use them occasionally as a secondary and figure they'll last long enough doing that and as much as I use them.

 

[kh54s10]

I have 4 of them. The oldest are at 2 years from my original kit. A 6 gallon primary and a 5 gallon secondary that rarely gets used. I aerate by setting them on a baseball and shaking the snot out of them. I clean with Oxyclean and have left some in for more than a week. I sanitize with Starsan. I don't leave the Starsan in there too long, but I do store Starsan solution in a 5 gallon water bottle - 2 years now. I don't worry about the Starsan too much - it comes full strength in a plastic bottle after all and the dilution is huge.

I don't have any worries about any of the other common concerns, like oxygen permeability, or flavor transfer either.

I think the cracking problem has a different source than the cleaners used, unless they are being used at an incredibly high concentration.

 

[unionrdr]

I have felt them flexing if they're not properly supported. I think just getting my hands underneath them is sufficient. I only use them occasionally as a secondary and figure they'll last long enough doing that and as much as I use them.

I took your suggestion on supporting the bottom when lifting/swirling. They really do have some small bit of flexing ability to them. I think I'll def get something to put it in for racking to & lifting to the top of the fermenter stand.
Anyway,the 1 gallon of cold water & 2tsp of PBW worked like a charm to clean the black spots off the inside! Didn't take much scrubbing at all with the carboy brush. Now I see why those Carboy Cleaners would be better.
The brush worked fine,but the Carboy Cleaner would be more thorough faster.
I also learned something else of interest. Those 5QT ice cream pails are the perfect depth & diameter for draining these better bottles! No need to buy one of those blue plastic drainer things. Unless of course,you need to drain a glass carboy. Yet another use for the two ice cream pails I saved for other brewery uses. Everything works if ya let it!

 

[+HopSpunge+]

Look at page 21 of your BYO magazine that came in the mail today.