"Cask" Best bitter recipe feedback please

[Dustin_J]

Good afternoon,

I've been working on restoring an Angram beer engine, and now that it's up and running I need a bitter! Inspired by the Shut up about Barclay Perkins blog entries regarding draft bitters in the 50s and 60s, I'd like to shoot for something right on the low-mid end of the draught best bitter examples discussed there. What do you all think of this as a starting point?

FYI, I'm not worried about brewer's caramel, roasted malts, etc. simply for color additions. Also, Wyeast lists 1469 as 67-71% attenuation, but the hope is that 1lb/13% invert sugar will help push that closer to 80%. The plan is to serve this as a "cask" beer, i.e. from the beer engine, 50-55 F, with ~1.5 volumes of co2 (initially through secondary fermentation in the corny keg, maintained with ~ 2-3 psi co2 via LP regulator/simulated cask breather).

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG
Estimated Color: 6.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 87.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 4.0 oz Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 2 82.0 %
6.0 oz Crystal Light - 45L (Crisp) (45.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.9 %
1 lbs Invert Sugar 1 (10.0 SRM) Sugar 4 13.1 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 Hop 5 26.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Celeia [2.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 4.3 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 7 -
1.00 oz Celeia [2.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 8 0.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 1.0 Hop 9 0.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg (starter) West Yorkshire Ale (Wyeast Labs #1469) Yeast 10 -

Water:
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Bru'n Water v.5.4 Water Adjustments

Profiles (ppm) Exist Target/Finished
Ca 12 64
Mg 19 19
Na 46 46
SO4 148 213
Cl 25 70
HCO3 18 18
SO4/Cl Ratio 3.0

Mash Schedule: HERMS Single Infusion - 152 F for 60 minutes
Fermentation Temp - 68 F (controlled)

Thank you!

 

[BigEd]

Looks like a good start, my .02: I'd pull back on the sugar to a half pound, add .75 lb to the pale malt to compensate, and let the numbers fall where they may. Based on my tinkering over the years I'd also suggest a 90 minute boil time for these UK ales.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Can't argue too much with that - personally I think you're being a bit optimistic with that 80% attenuation and I'd bump up the fermentables a touch - 4.2-4.3% ABV seems to be the sweet spot for bitter IMO.

You can never have too much Goldings, so personally I'd do a cheeky little EKG dry hop as well.

Your calcium is definitely on the low side, I'd like to see it at least 100ppm, whether with extra CaCl2 or gypsum. 1:3 chloride:sulphate is plenty, it wouldn't be the end of the world if it was a bit lower.

1469 seems to like generous aeration. What fermentation schedule are you using? This thread may be helpful : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

 

[Dustin_J]

Thanks for the suggestions! Here's the plan: Pull the invert back to .75 lbs, lower mash temp to 150, add .5 lb Crisp M.O., and add a bit more CaCL2 and CaSO4 to bump the calcium up and lower the sulfate/chloride ratio to ~ 2:5. For fermentation, I'll need to do some reading. The general plan was to pitch in the mid 60's, let it rise to ~ 68, ferment for ~ 2 weeks, cold crash, then off to the serving keg. I think I'll try to do a small secondary for condition in serving keg along with some finings.

A little dry hop sounds nice, probably right in the serving keg/"cask".

 

[kevin58]

I disagree with BigEd. Keep the invert at 1lb.

 

[bierhaus15]

Might be too late here, but I have two similar bitters on cask/hand pull at the moment; MO with 8% no 1 invert and another one using MO with 2% crystal 45L and 6% no 1 invert. Both taste great, but I do prefer using less crystal malt in bitters that use higher amounts of invert.

I also agree with NB, I would get your calcium above 100 ppm for the mash and I have also found a mash sulfate of 250 ppm to be my preferred amount, with Cl around 50.

My preferred fermentation profile it to pitch at 62-64F and free rise to 68F for a week, with a short D rest, then cool to 50F and transfer to the cask/finings.

 

[Dustin_J]

Might be too late here, but I have two similar bitters on cask/hand pull at the moment; MO with 8% no 1 invert and another one using MO with 2% crystal 45L and 6% no 1 invert. Both taste great, but I do prefer using less crystal malt in bitters that use higher amounts of invert.

I also agree with NB, I would get your calcium above 100 ppm for the mash and I have also found a mash sulfate of 250 ppm to be my preferred amount, with Cl around 50.

My preferred fermentation profile it to pitch at 62-64F and free rise to 68F for a week, with a short D rest, then cool to 50F and transfer to the cask/finings.

Thanks for the thoughts! I ended up with 1lb of invert as I missed my predicted mash extract just a touch on the low side. OG was still a little low even with the bit of extra invert sugar (~1.037) - still working out a new system. Ended up with predicted calcium (80 ppm), chloride (89 ppm), and sulfate (222 ppm) values in roughly the range you've all suggested, but I could bump the calcium and sulfate up a touch and still be in a decent predicted mash pH range.

----

Regarding fermentation, I aerated with an oxygen stone for 1 min, pitched at 64, and let it raise to 68 over night; it's chugging right along. I'm planning on making this a house beer, so I'm sure there will be multiple future iterations. Everyone's suggestions are greatly appreciated and I'll certainly take them into account moving forward.

 

[Dustin_J]

So, 2 1/2 weeks on and this one is in the keg. Based on early samples, the body is a little light as it finished around 1.008 . I'll chalk that up to miissing my planned O.G. The yeast esters are fairly strong as well. It still needs a little time to condition, but it's pretty tasty for a first stab. For those of you with experience using 1469 in these sorts of beers, have you tried fermenting a bit lower (65-66 F)? I like the character, but the fruit esters, specifically white peach and apricot, are more pronounced than I'd like. Time will probably take care of this a bit, of course, just looking for some other experiences.

Here's a picture of its final resting place, for good measure.

 

[Dustin_J]

This beer has changed a bunch in the last 3 days. A lot of the peach/apricot/apple has mellowed, the malt character of the beer is now more pronounced, and there's a bit of yellow cherry/plum character emerging. I've read about others saying that 1469 sometimes makes a big turn around 2.5 - 3 weeks, and it's certainly happening here. Anyway, this one's ready in my book, and the next few weeks should be really nice.

This is a Southern pour house, by the way

 

[bonecitybrewco]

Other than adding some Invert #2 to get more of the darker flavours going that I enjoy from a best, I like it.

 

[Dustin_J]

Other than adding some Invert #2 to get more of the darker flavours going that I enjoy from a best, I like it.

What would you say the difference is between a little medium-dark (80-90 L range)crystal and no 2 invert? I want a little more of those medium dark caramel/toffee sorts of flavors next round, and those seem like the two primary options.

 

[bierhaus15]

Proper no. 2 invert, like the stuff from Ragus, is 95% fermentable and provides a flavor akin to a 40L medium crystal. This is important since it provides a toffee-caramel character but ferments out dry - useful when brewing with lower attenuating yeasts or strains that leave threshold diacetyl. In comparison, an 80L crystal will provide darker flavors along with greater residual sweetness. It is common for older UK breweries to use a small % of crystal, with a greater % of invert, or just use crystal malt and little to no invert. A similar effect can be achieved using invert and a small amount of brewers caramel.

For darker, plum and raisin notes, I prefer something like 2-3% dark crystal (75L) and 5-8% invert no 2.

 

[Dustin_J]

Proper no. 2 invert, like the stuff from Ragus, is 95% fermentable and provides a flavor akin to a 40L medium crystal. This is important since it provides a toffee-caramel character but ferments out dry - useful when brewing with lower attenuating yeasts or strains that leave threshold diacetyl. In comparison, an 80L crystal will provide darker flavors along with greater residual sweetness. It is common for older UK breweries to use a small % of crystal, with a greater % of invert, or just use crystal malt and little to no invert. A similar effect can be achieved using invert and a small amount of brewers caramel.

For darker, plum and raisin notes, I prefer something like 2-3% dark crystal (75L) and 5-8% invert no 2.

This is very helpful, thank you! I think I'll back the invert 1 off a bit and try a touch of darker crystal the next go around. I want flavor, but not sweetness.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It is common for older UK breweries to use a small % of crystal, with a greater % of invert, or just use crystal malt and little to no invert. A similar effect can be achieved using invert and a small amount of brewers caramel.

It's worth emphasising that there's a lot of variation between brewers, regionally and also through time. northern brewers tend towards a drier beer, so tend to use less crystal and more sugar, whereas southern brewers use more crystal and tend to use flaked maize as an adjunct more than sugar. Maize supposedly helps finings to work and John Keeling thinks it "opens out" the flavour a bit; but it does have a lot of phenolic compounds which is maybe why it's less popular in the north where mildly-POF+ yeast are more common.

There's a great example of how southern brewers used to think in Fuller's recreation of John's first brew of ESB from 1981, it had 6.1% flaked maize, 2.5% medium crystal and 1.8% sugar (2:1 glucose:#3).

Since its formation CAMRA has equated the use of adjuncts with the Bad Old Days of British brewing and as a result they're not used nearly as much; the modern version of ESB has 7.2% light crystal, 0.19% chocolate and no adjuncts. FWIW, I prefer the modern recipe, it's just a bit richer whereas the 1981 recipe was a bit thinner. A typical Yorkshire bitter might use 2-3% crystal, Boddington's bitter uses none (and at times in the past has used a fair bit of sugar and other adjuncts along with a yeast that gave attenuations up to 90%).

So there's no single "authentic" amount of crystal or sugar to use when making a beer in the bitter family - if there's a mainstream commercial beer you've had that you've enjoyed, then there's probably somewhere on the internet that will give you an idea of what the proportions are, as British homebrewers do like cloning commercial beers. Having grown up on Boddies I'm not such a fan of the crystal-heavy beers, but I'd suggest something like 4% of both crystal and sugar and then tweak the proportions to taste.

 

[bierhaus15]

Since its formation CAMRA has equated the use of adjuncts with the Bad Old Days of British brewing and as a result they're not used nearly as much

For the sake of argument, while the use of sugar across the industry is down significantly from the 70's, there is still a LOT of brewing sugar and adjuncts being used to make British beer. Ragus alone sells about 2,000 tonnes of brewing sugar per year in the UK and that's not accounting for all the micronized/torrified wheat and/or maltose syrups that are used by the small and industrial brewers. Looking at the Protz raw data from 1996, nearly 50% of all beers in the almanac contain some form of adjunct. While many of those breweries/brands are no longer around, there are plenty that still brew with adjuncts; Harvey's, Well's, Theakston, Ridleys, Tetley, Adnams, Taylor, Smith, Bathams, Hook Norton, Fullers, Green King, Shep's, ect. Even the most popular brewer of "ale" by volume falls into this group; Sharps.

All said, it is curious that for all the adjunct use, there is no mention of "biscuit malt," "golden naked oats," "special B," "victory malt," "special malt," or other stuff that US home brewers love to include their bitter recipes.