Carbonation Fail … question…

[Sballe]

So - after 10-11 batches the last couple of years I finally had a carbonation fail. No fizz at all. As in NOTHING.

Never gave this much thought until now b/c it has never failed before …

It was bottled around 6 weeks ago, so — ‘no patience’ shouldn’t be the issue.

My question is — has anyone experienced unexplainable fails like this before?

I have never added any extra yeast or nutrients when bottling — do any of you find this necessary to make sure the carbonation will work?

Of course, the capping itself could be the issue if it hasn’t been completely sealed, but now that it’s already opened, I guess I will never know.

One thing that bothers me though is that this batch had a lot of foaming in primary — so I actually removed a lot of the foam from the bucket during fermentation to avoid spilling - could I have removed a lot of the nutrients? Enough to cause a failure in the carbonation?

My question is more of a discussion… how often does the happen to you guys out there — do you know why it happens ? do you take any special measures to avoid a potential carbonation-fail?

/Sean

 

[Bobby_M]

One thing that isn't clear in your post is whether you add sugar prior to bottling or not.

 

[Sballe]

One thing that isn't clear in your post is whether you add sugar prior to bottling or not.

Well … that would be the simple answer if I didn’t … yes I add priming sugar. Typically 10-12 gr/liter…

 

[DaveC73]

Was it one bottle or the whole batch? I've had the odd bottle in a batch fail to carbonate. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, I have no idea why.

 

[Sballe]

Was it one bottle or the whole batch? I've had the odd bottle in a batch fail to carbonate. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, I have no idea why.

Interesting. … since the cider is so young; about 1,5 months since bottling I only opened one bottle to have a little test-taste. Usually I bottle my cider in champagne-bottles (in the case about 5 bottles) and then do 2-3 smaller beer-bottles as well, which i open to test the batch after a little while. So / I have one beer bottle of this batch left - and 5 champagne bottles. Thinking i should open them all to see if all have failed carbonation. If this is the case — anyway to re-caebonate ?

 

[bernardsmith]

Is it possible that you had killed or removed all the viable yeast before you added the priming sugar?

 

[Sballe]

Is it possible that you had killed or removed all the viable yeast before you added the priming sugar?

Thx for replying … exatcly what i thought … but how would i have done that?? (Did what i always do - didnt add Anything but sugar)

 

[bernardsmith]

racked after cold crashing?

 

[Sballe]

racked after cold crashing?

No Cold crashing — fermented dry at Room temp; Then rerack and bottling with priming sugar…

 

[Vinman58]

temperature of storage after bottling? high abv? both of these could be the reason if none were carbed.

 

[Sballe]

temperature of storage after bottling? high abv? both of these could be the reason if none were carbed.

Stored at Room temp. And the ‘usual’ ABV … around 5-7%.

Can I open the remaining bottles, add a little yeast and sugar and see how it goes?

 

[Vinman58]

yes,if your sure your bottles are sealed. I can't imagine a reason?Let us know

 

[bernardsmith]

Stored at Room temp. And the ‘usual’ ABV … around 5-7%.

Can I open the remaining bottles, add a little yeast and sugar and see how it goes?

What you might do is replace one of the glass bottles with a plastic bottle. If carbonation takes place the gas expands the bottle and you can feel the bottle getting more and more firm. It's a low tech method of monitoring for carbonation.

 

[BPenny]

While I’ve never had too many carbonation issues with beer, I’ve had ciders that took several months or even a year to carb, but it always happens eventually. Actually the only ciders I’ve ever made that carbonate in less than 1-2 months are when I bottle them at the tail end of active fermentation (pet nats). I suspect it could have something to do with the low ph, (or possibly the lack of nutrients) since I have noticed something similar with aged sour beers and sparkling wines. One caveat is that I do native ferments on all of my ciders, so if you used a lab cultured wine or cider yeast I would expect it to carb faster.

 

[Brushwood Brewing]

Can I open the remaining bottles, add a little yeast and sugar and see how it goes?

I'm also wondering this. I have a RIS that is significantly undercarbonated (though it did carbonate some). Bottling occurred about 7 months ago. I'm trying to decide whether to open them all and add a carb drop, or perhaps to dump them all into a keg and force carbonate. Anyone have any experience with either method?

 

[Cider Wraith]

What you might do is replace one of the glass bottles with a plastic bottle. If carbonation takes place the gas expands the bottle and you can feel the bottle getting more and more firm. It's a low tech method of monitoring for carbonation.

This ^

 

[Cider Wraith]

One caveat is that I do native ferments on all of my ciders

Maybe someday I'll try that

 

[Sballe]

This ^

The first thing that crosses my mind is there's no way I would open the bottles and add more sugar and yeast ... yikes. Wearing safety glasses and gloves I might shake up a bottle or two and place them in a sealed bucket and see what that does

I guess you could measure SG and if you didn't do an initial test do a quick search you can find quick estimates for starting SG of different juices

I haven't experienced failed fermentation but in your case it would cross my mind to plan for a "recovery" batch and accommodate for double volumes and get that going and open all the existing bottles - and if they smell and taste fine - add them to the new batch. Odd-ball measures like that often works

Maybe open bottles and add a little yeast - say ec1118. No sugar. In that case I wouldn’t increase the risk of a bottle bomb, right?

Actually - just remembered!! I used bentonite and gelatin for clearing on this particular batch. Haven’t used before or after — could this cause too much yeast to drop out of suspension- thus failed carbonation?

Recovery batch also sound like a good plan. But since I have no batches going at the moment; this will probably be something for a distant future

Was also thinking about freezing it - then cryo-concentrate for Apple wine or Apple jack Or Apple brandy (don’t really know the exact difference)… would that work?

 

[Cider Wraith]

Maybe shake them up, that might make a difference

 

[Cider Wraith]

Maybe open bottles and add a little yeast

Yeah, maybe give it a try -

 

[Toblerone]

Brushwood:
Try opening your bottles, adding a few grains of CBC-1 yeast to each bottle, and quickly recapping. Age it in a warm place, and don't be in a rush.
Your RIS is likely at a high alcohol level, and any yeast that remains just might not be up to the task of fermenting any of the remaining sugars in the bottle... essentially a stuck fermentation. Fairly common with high ABV beers.
Good luck!
On the positive side, RIS is a style that is still thoroughly enjoyable with low carbonation.

 

[Sballe]

Ok — so here’s the plan: I did a gentle shake of all the bottles a few days ago and will wait a couple of weeks to see if this helps … will write back then with an update…

 

[Sballe]

UPDATE:
So - i waited another 1,5 months — and opened another bottle of the cider. Happily surprised, it seems to have carbonated! I apparently wasn’t patient enough, since it took almost 2 1/2 months to reach this carbonation level. It wasn’t very fizzy , probably around 2 to 2 1/2 volumes but I guess if I leave the rest for longer, it will become better with time. So the conclusion is - not surprisingly - PATIENCE!