Carbing + Sorbate = OUCH!

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Justibone

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So, last spring I accidentally carbonated some Edwort's Apfelwein (modified) by using sorbate but not adding meta. (I didn't know you needed both to stabilize a wine.) It ended up being pretty good, and it didn't have a yeast cake, so I said to myself, "I gotta try this again sometime!"

The time to try again was last month. I made some plum wine with canned plums and some welch's juice as a base. I also added cane sugar to boost the ABV. The wine was okay after primary fermentation, so I bottled it in resealable champagne-style bottles. I added sugar and sorbate at bottling time.

It turned out to sparkle really well, but there was still a bit of yeast in the bottle. The carbonation was great. After three weeks, though, it tasted like rotten grape juice. Oops. Hmmmmmmm... So into the fridge the other 2/3 of a bottle went. It sat there for about 10 days. I had some more last night, and the cold conditioning had done it *tremendous* favor. It was much better, even though the nose was still only "meh", and the plum flavor was totally wiped out by the welch's. Okay, not a disaster, I drank it. I finished the bottle (the ABV was low, only in the 9% range).

Later last night, even though I never felt drunk (or even buzzed) I started to get a headache. I went to bed thinking the headache would be gone by morning. Whoops. About 3:20 AM I woke from fitful sleep. I went to the restroom, and my headache was worse than ever. So as not to keep SWMBO up with my tossing and turning, I went to the couch to finish the night. It felt like someone was turning one of those old hand-powered drills into my head slowly, and my stomach had decided to leave my body to go ride roller coasters all on it's own, sending the nausea back as a souvenir. Thanks, stomach.

I kept myself from vomiting, took a couple of excedrin, and tossed and turned on the couch. Slowly, after another hour or so (it felt longer) the giant drill stopped drilling in and instead started drilling out, which, believe it or not, was much better. My stomach had had enough of Six Flags and had returned to my thorax, and I was able to sit up finally. After another hour or so of reading blogs I actually felt good, and the weird hangover was gone as soon as it came.

It occurs to me that the source of my odd hangover was very likely fusel alcohols. It also occurs to me that the reason for them is most likely the stress from the yeast not being dead but being inhibited by the sorbate, and it also occurs to me that I have four more bottles of this crap.

So, what would you do with four bottles of merely "meh" sparkling wine of no particular vintage that's guaranteed hangover juice? I thought briefly that it would be fun to give to minors, as an object lesson, but it would also be pretty cruel and definitely illegal. The way to get rid of fusels is to heat the wine, which would eliminate the sparkling aspect and also sounds like a lot of drama for only so-so wine.

So, any fun ideas for fusel-filled sparkling red wine? (I know I'll never drink it again.)
 
Sorbate has been my best friend forever. I haven't had a problem like that. At 9% ABV, I don't think it is high enough to protect it's self from bacteria infections. The yeast cells in the bottle could have been 'Flowers of Wine' Any chance?

Flowers of Wine: Small flecks or blooms of white powder or film may appear on the surface of the wine. If left unchecked, they grow to cover the entire surface and can grow quite thick. They are caused by spoilage yeasts and/or mycoderma bacteria, and if not caught at first appearance will certainly spoil the wine. If caused by yeast, they consume alcohol and give off carbon dioxide gas. They eventually turn the wine into colored water. The wine must be filtered at once to remove the flecks of bloom and then treated with one crushed Campden tablet per gallon of wine. The saved wine will have suffered some loss of alcohol and may need to be fortified with added alcohol (brandy works well) or consumed quickly. If caused by the mycoderma bacteria, treat the same as for a yeast infection. The Campden will probably check it, but the taste may have been ruined. Taste the wine and then decide if you want to keep it. Bacterial infections usually spoil the wine permanently, but early treatment may save it.

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/problems.asp
 
Looked more like snot than flowers. ;)

I bought a gallon of tea that was like that. I went to take a drink and it just strewed from my mouth to the glass almost at arms reach. You could pretty well tell what happen next. Now that was a serious infection.
 
Good point, the fusels will boil off easily. :)

If it was bacteria and you didn't boil it, it could contaminate your food with the bacteria and make everyone sick. If it was a fusel problem, I would think it would smell like fingernail polish remover or something.
 
:off: :off: :off: :off:

So, what would you do with four bottles of merely "meh" sparkling wine of no particular vintage that's guaranteed hangover juice? I thought briefly that it would be fun to give to minors, as an object lesson, but it would also be pretty cruel and definitely illegal. The way to get rid of fusels is to heat the wine, which would eliminate the sparkling aspect and also sounds like a lot of drama for only so-so wine.

So, any fun ideas for fusel-filled sparkling red wine? (I know I'll never drink it again.)

Serve it to guests who you do not wish to return. :D
 
Not...nothing pathologic can live in beer/mead/wine...and anyhow, even the heat of regular cooking would be more than enough to kill bacteria.

If that were the case, we wouldn't need to use campden to kill it. Wine isn't safe without it until it gets up to about 12% ABV. If regular cooking include a meat thermometer to insure the temperature reaches a minimum, then maybe because once you flip a steak, the top starts to cool back down. If you douse it with wine at that time, it will never be back at a temp to kill it.

Here are just a few of the infections they can get

Lactobacillus infection
Leuconostoc infection
Toropsulosis infection
Mycoderma infection.
Butyric acid bacteria infection
http://www.honeycreek.us/wine_faults.php


NOTE: It may be worth stating, just to avoid confusion, that I personally don't use campden at the start of fermentation because the yeast I use makes 12%ABV in 24 hours and it just doesn't give anything else time to get going. I plug the brew belt in and within a few hours, when the temp is right, I throw the yeast in. On the average persons ferment, they need the campden before getting started.
 
CampFire...I agree that those infections will cause a bad wine/mead, but these are not pathologic bacteria in humans...ingesting a beverage with these in them, or eating food that was cooked or marinated in said beverage will not hurt anyone.

Edit: BTW, I wanted to add that I'm not actually a winemaker, just beer and mead, but when I've used fresh juice (apples or grapes) as part of my mead, I've also never sulfited it, and never felt that the product suffered in any way...
 
CampFire...I agree that those infections will cause a bad wine/mead, but these are not pathologic bacteria in humans...ingesting a beverage with these in them, or eating food that was cooked or marinated in said beverage will not hurt anyone.

If you take the first one 'Lactobacillus infection'

In wine it causes 'Wine thicker than usual'
http://www.honeycreek.us/wine_faults.php

but when you cross reference it to human infection you get

Treatments are available for a lactobacillus infection, but the mortality rate for the diseases associated with a lactobacillus Infection is greater than 50 percent.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5813590_treatments-lactobacillus-infection_.html#ixzz16htdo7EL

The information is all out there, you really should look it up so you will know.
 
Camp...you're taking this out of context. Your own reference also makes note of the fact that lactobacillus is part of the natural, normal human flora. Like many bacteria in this category (Streptococcus and Staphylococcus species, E. coli, etc.), they can occasionally cause infections if they violate the natural barriers that contain them in their places of colonization. This does NOT mean that it is dangerous to ingest! In fact, it is regularly ingested intentionally -- you can get lactobacillus capsules in just about any health food store or pharmacy, and well, then there's yogurt, which contains active lactobacillus and several other bacterial strains.

I will continue to maintain that nothing can live in beer, wine or mead that can cause disease in humans...
 
...and even a quick trip over to our own Kombucha Forum...

Justibone, a friend of mine can't drink any wine or mead that contains potassium sorbate in it; he gets pretty much exactly the reaction you described. I know that you've used sorbate for a long time without any issues, but in his case he also doesn't get it every time, just most of the time, so he won't even bother to mess with it at all anymore.

Just a thought.
 
Thanks Rossnaree. I'll have to think about that, since the sorbate may have been higher than usual.

It was definitely an "ouch" kind of day. SWMBO is so curious she almost almost wants to try it to see if she gets the same result...
 
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