Carapils Question

[jblack138]

I'm wanting to do a Tallgrass Buffalo Sweat clone. Using the recipe that Northern Brewer has and cross referencing with the Tallgrass website, they use Carapils and White Wheat in their recipe that is not in the Northern Brewer kit.

It's my first time using Carapils and my question is do I need to reduce any of the base grains in the recipe or just add the Carapils? I'm guessing a 5-8% amount of the grain bill will be Carapils. I'm also assuming that I will have to reduce some of the base grains, but I'm not sure which one(s) I should leave or mess with. I wasn't planning on using the White Wheat, but if anyone has tips on that I would appreciate it.

I have seen several posts dismissing the use of Carapils if brewing properly, but I figured since it's a clone and they use it, why not?

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Biergarden]

I really like carapils and use it often. I don't know the Tallgrass beer you're talking about, but for me, I wouldn't dial back on the base malt at all. Not only does carapils add foam stability, but it also increases mouthfeel to a degree. The white wheat will have similar effect as the carapils in regards to foam and mouth feel, but naturally if different. If you choose to use it, try and get the pregelatinized type, otherwise you'll have to do a cereal mash or a very long mash to reach starch conversion.

 

[dmtaylor]

Carapils doesn't do what most people think it does. It's safe to skip it.

Now, whether you want to add more malt to make up for the difference, that depends mostly on total weight of grains and your own average efficiency compared to their recipe.

 

[Lefou]

Brewing properly?
I think that's a term many would debate, but using certain alternative mash methods with other ingredients can yield a similar result. I rarely use Carapils or even Crystal malts in the 10L-40L range, and prefer buying extra base malts or specialty grains instead, but that's just me. My taste runs toward drier, lighter beers but there might be a time I'd actually consider using Carapils or Crystal grains in heavier styles known for a higher finishing gravity.

Your clone is an oatmeal cream stout, so mashing higher with Carapils or Crystal with a protein-rich wheat malt might give you the style character you're looking for, but more or less, it might be the lactose sugar that really makes the difference.

 

[Yooper]

I really like carapils and use it often. I don't know the Tallgrass beer you're talking about, but for me, I wouldn't dial back on the base malt at all. Not only does carapils add foam stability, but it also increases mouthfeel to a degree. The white wheat will have similar effect as the carapils in regards to foam and mouth feel, but naturally if different. If you choose to use it, try and get the pregelatinized type, otherwise you'll have to do a cereal mash or a very long mash to reach starch conversion.

I don't understand what you're saying- what should be 'pregelatinized' or need a long mash or a cereal mash? Neither wheat malt nor carapils need a long mash or a cereal mash. Carapils can be steeped (it's a crystal malt) and wheat malt can be mashed as usual.

 

[Lefou]

I just looked at NB's mash directions and grain ingredients for their clone. No Carapils .... BUT....
A half pound of Briess Victory is listed. It has basically the same color and sensory perception as their Carapils Copper malt.

 

[jblack138]

Carapils is not in the NB recipe, but it is listed on the Tallgrass website. I figured if I was trying to make it & have jumpstart with the NB recipe, why not get as close as I can by adding some of the same grains they use.

I do appreciate the input

 

[Biergarden]

I don't understand what you're saying- what should be 'pregelatinized' or need a long mash or a cereal mash? Neither wheat malt nor carapils need a long mash or a cereal mash. Carapils can be steeped (it's a crystal malt) and wheat malt can be mashed as usual.

Hmmm. I must need to work on being more clear when I write. I'm not much of an author, but let me try one more time. If I confused you, I'm sure I've confused the other guys here as well.
I like to add a fraction of dextrine to my beer if I'm not using a fraction of wheat or other similar adjunct. To be sure I do not do a cereal mash dextrine malt. There's no need to.

For wheat malt I do need to extend the mash by up to 75 minutes or longer depending on the malted barley to malted wheat ratio. That is largely because I'm not using pregelatinized wheat malt. In John Malletts book, "Malt" he goes into brief detail on pages 81-82. Also in Jean-Xavier Guinanrd's book, "Lambic" he delves into the need to use a "special mashing process" to gelatinize the wheat malts to get to the starches in the wheat kernel. In the reference book, "The Practical Brewer" produced my the Masters Brewers Association of the Americas (MBAA) the process of gelatinizing wheat malt is talked about in more detail on pages 95 and 96. The process is also talked about in "Technology Brewing and Malting on page 216 and in greater detail on page 746, which they talk about single and double decoction mashing and an low temp protein rest to increase the presence of 4-vinyl-guajacol (guaiacol).
Breiss malting makes a pregelatinized wheat malt, that I haven't tried. I should though just to see if I can make an easier to mash wheat beer.
I also add a dosage of rice hulls, just to better ensure I get a good run off.
Lastly, I mill the wheat twice, then I mill the rest of the grain bill. I mill the wheat twice, so heat and water get to the starches as efficiently as possible, based on my brewing system.
If you're getting a starch conversion, based on an iodine test, with a normal mash without using pregelatinized wheat, I'd like to hear how you manage it.
For my water, I have rainwater to brew with. The pH from the tap is 6.9 so I have to adjust my strike water for a mash of 5.7.

 

[MerlinWerks]

I also mill my wheat malt twice, separate from the rest of the grist because I don't want to be changing my mill gap, but beyond that even with a grist that is 60% or more wheat malt (usually Best Malz) I have never had conversion issues with a 60 minute mash.

 

[Biergarden]

That's good to hear. I've ordered their wheat malt and also their Red X malt. I'm looking forwards to seeing how those two perform. I'll still to do a protein rest for the wheat, but I really want to shorten my brew day as much as I can.

 

[Biergarden]

What percentage of wheat are you using?

 

[Yooper]

That's good to hear. I've ordered their wheat malt and also their Red X malt. I'm looking forwards to seeing how those two perform. I'll still to do a protein rest for the wheat, but I really want to shorten my brew day as much as I can.

I buy well modified wheat malt, and never went over 60 minutes for any wheat malt mash, and I don't do protein rests for them. They convert well.

Remember that a protein rest with well-modified malt may destroy your head retention!

 

[Biergarden]

It's never been a problem for me. Head retention I mean. A protein rest of 122f for 10 minutes is strictly for the production of 4VG. I really like what that does for the hefeweizens. That is if you're trying to make a Bavarian style wheat beer.

 

[Yooper]

It's never been a problem for me. Head retention I mean. A protein rest of 122f for 10 minutes is strictly for the production of 4VG. I really like what that does for the hefeweizens. That is if you're trying to make a Bavarian style wheat beer.

He's making a sweet stout.......................

 

[MerlinWerks]

What percentage of wheat are you using?

This summer I did three different batches of a cucumber/wheat lager that is 64% wheat malt, no issues.

HERE is an interesting read on Carapils...

The original recipe for the wheat lager above used 1lb. of carapils, for my third batch I swapped that for 1lb. of base malt and did not notice any appreciable difference.