Can Cask Beer be Mimicked in something besides a Pin or Firkin?

[Yesfan]

Every now and then, I like to go through old BrewingTV episodes and one of my favorites is the oatmeal stout that Mike and Jake put in a pin for a cask style beer (minus the engine). It's Ep 38 None More Cask for those who haven't seen it

That got me thinking.....if you don't have a pin or firkin, can you get similar results with keg, conical, or other vessel that can be pressurized? Could this be done with a Spike Flex+? I'm sure a keg is better, pressure wise, but figured the Spike or similar would be more suited since it won't use ball lock disconnects that could get clogged with trub.

 

[madscientist451]

Yes, a keg on its side, with the bottom elevated and using the gas side for pouring, the dip tube side has a fitting on that allows air to get in.....there's a youtube video of someone doing this.


https://beerandbrewing.com/using-a-cornelius-keg-for-cask-ale/

 

[Sam_92]

I've got a cask beer setup using a corny keg that I naturally carbonated and an rv hand pump to mimic a beer engine. It's working pretty well so far, I just finished it last week.

 

[hopjuice_71]

I've got a cask beer setup using a corny keg that I naturally carbonated and an rv hand pump to mimic a beer engine. It's working pretty well so far, I just finished it last week.

^This.

I have done naturally carbonated, low CO2 bitters served from a keg with an RV hand pump (head space replace by low CO2 pressure) that fooled Brits (2 of them) that used to work as bar tenders hand pulling beers in UK pubs. It works pretty well. The only downside, which I might get flak for, is that you don't get the slight oxidation of the beer that is sometimes quite pleasant.

 

[Sam_92]

^This.

I have done naturally carbonated, low CO2 bitters served from a keg with an RV hand pump (head space replace by low CO2 pressure) that fooled Brits (2 of them) that used to work as bar tenders hand pulling beers in UK pubs. It works pretty well. The only downside, which I might get flak for, is that you don't get the slight oxidation of the beer that is sometimes quite pleasant.

I'm not going to give you flak, I agree one hundred percent. On the flip side I'm not drinking four gallons of beer in three days so I'll take that down side

 

[hopjuice_71]

I'm not going to give you flak, I agree one hundred percent. On the flip side I'm not drinking four gallons of beer in three days so I'll take that down side

Haha, indeed! That night the keg got killed, but other times I have done it I have enjoyed the keg over many weeks.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Writer's Pre-emptive Strike: I'm about to write blasphemy. If you are in any way enthusiastic about Real Ale, look away. You have been warned.


The tricky business about proper cask ale isn't the dispense method, it's getting the oxidation right. Dispense from a standard keg is pretty easy--all you really have to do is smash a beer with low carbonation through a small orifice at high pressure. Don't crash the ale, just keg it at your finishing temp. At this point, hit it with 20psi of gas, then toss it in the fridge. Hit it with a further 15psi the following morning, then let it sit for a few days. When you want to dispense, put your keg back on the gas and give it a good shot of gas, then turn off the gas. Next, half cock your tap and pour *slowly.* I'm cheap and I use cobra heads, I don't know if this technique works with proper faucets. Don't be afraid to take a bit of gas off the beer with the PRV if you're shooting foam. When your session is over, use the pressure relief valve to dump the high pressure dispensing gas to avoid further carbonation. It will take some practice, but I have learned how to get a pint that looks and feels like something that has been through a beer engine. Blasphemy!!!

But the tricky part is the oxidation. I gave up trying to do forced oxidation on my beers a long time ago. My taste has evolved and I have a hard time convincing myself that oxidation is a good flavor. My final technique utilized a closed transfer followed by opening the keg's lid under a Star-San soaked paper towel and letting it sit for a few minutes to let oxygen mingle with the CO2-dense headspace. At that point, I would close the keg, hit it with 20psi (no purging), and follow the process outlined above.

At the end of the day, I've come to terms with the notion that proper cask ale is something that you get at a tavern that specializes in cask ale and has enough traffic to ensure that it can pour a decent pint. Put differently, it's something to be enjoyed at the perfect place, at the perfect time.

My fridge is neither of those things. It took me a lot of years to learn to be okay with that.

Anyway, that's about all I know about this.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have humored the idea of using 2 liter soda bottles or some of the 1/2 or 1gal mini kegs to limit the volumes needed.

Bottling seems like a more practical approach and if you use Swing top bottles you could bleed off excess pressure.

 

[Sam_92]

I have humored the idea of using 2 liter soda bottles or some of the 1/2 or 1gal mini kegs to limit the volumes needed.

Bottling seems like a more practical approach and if you use Swing top bottles you could bleed off excess pressure.

You could also just prime to 1.5 volumes but in my experience it won't have that pillowy head that cask beer is famous for.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I have humored the idea of using 2 liter soda bottles or some of the 1/2 or 1gal mini kegs to limit the volumes needed.

Bottling seems like a more practical approach and if you use Swing top bottles you could bleed off excess pressure.

Yeah, the bungs make the Heineken mini-kegs kinda useless.

I've often thought that someone with a 3D printer and a real thirst for cask ale could make the 2ltr dream happen. Just think about it... They could make tens of dollars on this idea!

It's a damned shame that we live in a world where coconut infused, bourbon barrel aged, cherry dessert stouts infest the beer landscape, but a fella can't get a decent cask ale for love or money.

 

[ba-brewer]

Yeah, the bungs make the Heineken mini-kegs kinda useless.

I've often thought that someone with a 3D printer and a real thirst for cask ale could make the 2ltr dream happen. Just think about it... They could make tens of dollars on this idea!

It's a damned shame that we live in a world where coconut infused, bourbon barrel aged, cherry dessert stouts infest the beer landscape, but a fella can't get a decent cask ale for love or money.

OK I have more than humored the idea mentioned before, I have a few of these type of mini kegs
KegLand Mini Kegs

I have had issues with oxidation before I tapped them so not really happy with them. I have some different O-rings for the dispensing lid(ball lock connections) which seems to be helping. Ideally they dont require pressure to keep a seal like a corny keg.

I have some of these for 2Liter bottles but have not put them to use.
Carbonation Cap Tee Adapter
Also does not requite pressure to hold a seal.

 

[mashpaddled]

I've always been a big fan of cask beer. The slight oxidation is great when done right but it's the texture for me that makes it a great way to drink beer. English cask beer is great but lots of other styles are great served on cask, too.

A keg pulled through a cask engine with a breather on the back end can get you close to the non-oxidized experience and splits the difference for those of us who want a cask experience at home but can't get through a keg in a few days.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I have some of these for 2Liter bottles but have not put them to use.
Carbonation Cap Tee Adapter
Also does not requite pressure to hold a seal.

Jerk! I looked at the Tee Adapter and my heart leapt out of my chest for a moment. Then I realized, bah! It's only a two-hole system. I don't think it'll work.

I could be mistaken, but as I understand it, proper cask dispense (not a Real Ale...please, let's not get started on that) involves three things 1) a low carbonation beer; 2) a means of smashing the low carbonation beer through a small orifice; 3) air coming into the system to displace the served ale (the need to have the ale oxidized in a pleasurable fashion).

In other words, what's really needed is a vessel with a valve on its side. One of the old Golden Gate Kegs that Henry/Blitz Weinhard used to use. Hmmm...I never thought of those kegs as being casks.

Rouge used to use Golden Gate kegs back in the early 90's...that explains why Don Younger at the Horse Brass Pub in Portland, OR used to frequently have Rouge Ales on cask. I get it now....

 

[Sam_92]

I think the answer to that micro-oxidation would be 1 gallon corny kegs and when you hand pump the beer out you pull the prv. I really thought about doing it that way but 1 gallon kegs are twice the price of used cornies and I'm a cheap bastard.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I think the answer to that micro-oxidation would be 1 gallon corny kegs and when you hand pump the beer out you pull the prv. I really thought about doing it that way but 1 gallon kegs are twice the price of used cornies and I'm a cheap bastard.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. It's a vessel problem.

You have me scratching my chin and contemplating having such vessels made in China. I could make ones of dollars selling to the army of individuals that found this thread interesting.

Meanwhile, over in the "What Are You Drinking Now" thread...

We're never going to get cask ale, are we?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have just ordered a bunch of kegs and gotten all the accompanying equipment (regulators, gas tube, PE tubes, JG connections, taps etc)
I am looking to do something similair myself.
So far the plan is to out a 5L water jug in the fridge, tape the thermostat to it and set it so the kegs are at a comfy 11c.
The kegs will be primed and conditioned for 2 weeks to have a carbonation of 1.7 vols, then put to cool condition for a week in the fridge with a serving pressure on the regulator set to 0.7 bar(about 10psi).
Will use 2 meters of 3/16 tube to the taps, this coupled with a little pressure drop over the manifold should get me a moderately carbonated and cellar temped pour.
I could probably do a more advanced cask emulation, but I feel this will at least give a little faux cask feel to it.

 

[Sam_92]

I don't think so... It seems all the trends are moving towards beer that tastes like orange juice and beer that you drink at home delivered by Uber.

 

[McMullan]

Yes, you can have 'cask' conditioned beer at home, even without a cask. It's just naturally carbonated, unfiltered (living) beer. A cask is just a basic vessel that holds beer under pressure. Don't over think it. With floating dip tubes (e.g. CaskWidge floats) it's no longer necessary to set the vessel on its side at a slight angle. Many casks get tapped with a basic hammer-in tap rather than a beer engine. A beer engine is a nice-to-have but it's not essential. A bit like an engine on a rowing boat really. You'll still get there. In terms of beer line, if the beer is conditioned properly and at cellar temperature (a cool 11°C or so) a short length of tubing no smaller than 3/8 OD, a picnic tap and gravity works a treat. If consumption rate is an issue, which it is generally for home brewers, especially with an open vessel, i.e. exposing beer to air, transfer some beer to a smaller vessel and 'cask' condition overnight. The most basic ghetto hack is to use something like a 2L PET bottle. Here's a simple set-up with a soft spile to to let the beer condition until it's ready for serving.

It's not really about the equipment, it's about something called 'cellarmanship'. Something most home brewers should be able to do quite easily.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I could be mistaken… 2) a means of smashing the low carbonation beer through a small orifice

You are mistaken in this regard. In some areas of the UK this is true (I.e. they use a sparkler tip) but is is far from universal. Additionally many brewers actually say the preferred method of dispense is straight from the cask via gravity.

That said, “smashing” the beer through tiny orifices is not a prerequisite for Cask (or Real) ale!

 

[eshea3]

I've used these.

https://www.homebrewing.org/Mini-Ke...ZNcu5Ta5IR60gcEk8WTbEgBkHnG7WdNxoC7oAQAvD_BwE
Only done it a couple of times, but good results. Obviously only suitable for gravity distribution.

Many breweries in England sell their beer this way.

 

[kevin58]

Well this has been the most informative and entertaining thread I've read in a while. After reading post #2 by madscientist451 who shared that video I thought OK, thread answered and we're done. But before you know it I'm reading every word of every following post and learning new things. Thank you all.

 

[Yesfan]

I have humored the idea of using 2 liter soda bottles or some of the 1/2 or 1gal mini kegs to limit the volumes needed.

Bottling seems like a more practical approach and if you use Swing top bottles you could bleed off excess pressure.

I think the answer to that micro-oxidation would be 1 gallon corny kegs and when you hand pump the beer out you pull the prv. I really thought about doing it that way but 1 gallon kegs are twice the price of used cornies and I'm a cheap bastard.

I have a couple of 1 gallon torpedo kegs for small batches. I don't know why I didn't think of them earlier or the 2L bottles. May have to rig something up for my next brew.

I was wondering if the Spike Flex+ could be used, but I like the idea of going smaller and keep the Flex open for fermentation only. The one gallon kegs (and 2.5 gallon) are a better option, especially since I'm going to be the only one drinking most of the time.

 

[friarsmith]

Now I’m thirsty for a Deuchar’s IPA. Time to call the private jet to Edinburgh. Oh wait… it’s in the shop

 

[bwible]

There are several threads on here from people who use plastic cubitaners or “polypins”. They come in small enough sizes. It’s something I never tried but there are people saying they do it. The containers collapse as the beer is drawn out or something.

I could make ones of dollars selling to the army of individuals that found this thread interesting.

I’m always interested in cask ale. But that’s probably the reason nobody is making anything. 5L minikegs seem like a good idea. I have the ones that only have one opening at the top though. The ones with the pull out faucet seem like they might work better for cask type ale - that at least gives you 2 openings. I think those pull out faucets are cheaply made though and they break or tear and you’d likely be replacing those pretty frequently.

Seems like somebody should be making a 5L minikeg with 2 holes like a cask for homebrew use. Then they would have to come up with a decent serving faucet and spiles, etc. But if there’s no money to be made then nobody is going to do it.

I think 5L minikegs never caught fire with homebrewers because they have issues. They are thin and bulge out and get damaged very easily from overcarbonation. And they are hard to clean.

 

[bwible]

This is the link that was posted in the other thread. These come in several sizes. 1 gallon, 2 1/2 gallon would seem of interest. I’m not sure how you would attach this to a beer engine. I’m not sure if these come with a faucet or not. They show one in one of the pictures but there is no mention in the description, says it comes with a 38mm cap. I tried searching for a faucet to buy seperately and I didn’t find one.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23286

 

[Yesfan]

This is the link that was posted in the other thread. These come in several sizes. 1 gallon, 2 1/2 gallon would seem of interest. I’m not sure how you would attach this to a beer engine. I’m not sure if these come with a faucet or not. They show one in one of the pictures but there is no mention in the description, says it comes with a 38mm cap. I tried searching for a faucet to buy seperately and I didn’t find one.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23286

I think of box wine when I see those. I wonder if you could use those as well.

 

[bwible]

Fermentap makes a version of a bag in box system for home winemakers. I forgot about those. They have to have been around for almost 20 years. It looks like a little plastic trash can with a bag and a faucet. Says they hold 1.8 gallons and the bags are single use. I’m not sure if these bags would take any pressure at all and I’m not recommending these for beer. Just throwing it out there.

https://www.homebrewing.org/Wine-On...MIrYrXgqay9gIVg9rICh1oiAfGEAQYBSABEgKg_vD_BwE

 

[Yesfan]

Fermentap makes a version of a bag in box system for home winemakers. I forgot about those. They have to have been around for almost 20 years. Says they hold 1.8 gallons and the bags are single use. I’m not sure if these bags would take any pressure at all and I’m not recommending these for beer. Just throwing it out there.

https://www.homebrewing.org/Wine-On...MIrYrXgqay9gIVg9rICh1oiAfGEAQYBSABEgKg_vD_BwE

Yeah, pressure would be the one issue. I guess if you fermented and conditioned in one vessel that can handle it, then transferred to a fermentap or wine in a box bag you could do that....but that kinda takes away from the whole idea of cask beer doesn't it?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I have used the plastic polypins from USPlastic... they work, but getting the proper condition consistently was something I was never able to master. And they do sell taps for them though; sold separately. Search tap, not faucet.

 

[Back to the Brewture]

I was lucky enough to purchase 2 working beer engines for a song, and have been simply tilting my corny keg at a 45 degree angle to get the yeast away from the dip tube. I cask condition the beer with priming sugar at 1.2 ounces per 5 gallons to reach 1.5 PSI. Before tapping, I cellar for a couple of weeks between 50 and 54 degrees and after tapping, add CO2 at approximately 7-8PSI to fill the space after a beer is pulled. I just put a Timothy Taylor's Landlord in the fermenter and cannot wait to get it into the keg and onto the beer engine!

 

[Sam_92]

That is incredibly lucky! Are you in the UK? I don't think there's any chance of getting a used beer engine here in the US because nobody has one to start with. The little $35 rv pump I got from Amazon mimics the effect pretty well but my first beer I'm running through it is a bit lackluster. I'm putting a stout on next that I have very high hopes for and I'll probably do a hoppy pale ale after that.

Edited for punctuation failure.

 

[Back to the Brewture]

I'm in the US, found them on Facebook Marketplace. The guy I bought them from brought them back from England as decorations and they sat in his attic for years. Truly a lucky find! There are 2 on Marketplace right now in Connecticut, search beer engines, you'll have to scroll through lots of car engines though. There's also this website out of Pennsylvania, UKbrewing.com that sells refurbished and new, plus parts.

 

[Saunassa]

Yeah, the bungs make the Heineken mini-kegs kinda useless.

I've often thought that someone with a 3D printer and a real thirst for cask ale could make the 2ltr dream happen. Just think about it... They could make tens of dollars on this idea!

It's a damned shame that we live in a world where coconut infused, bourbon barrel aged, cherry dessert stouts infest the beer landscape, but a fella can't get a decent cask ale for love or money.

Ah man, you take all the fun away.. Now I feel the need to go find a cask ale. I know of a place that has the same recipe on tap, one std co2 and the other in a beer engine. Fun to have both to compare sxs.

 

[T Murph]

All of this discussion about cask ale and not one mention of the stick. I feel it is also an important part of serving a true cast ale. Else, how would you know?

 

[Jules Verne]

Pardon my ignorance of cask conditioning: what I don't understand is if Real Ale is conditioned at cellar temperatures, which I would imagine to be in the 40-50 degree F range, then how does the beer become conditioned? Especially since, according to the book How to Brew Real Ale at Home, which is how I heard about Real Ale in the first place, perfectly made Real Ale doesn't have any priming sugars added. I tried conditioning bottled beer without priming sugar in my basement, and, though it is tasty, is has no condition whatsoever. I don't understand what is happening differently in the cask conditioning process that allows it to condition at a lower temperature and without added sugar. Is it a question of the volume of beer being conditioned together? I have yet to actually taste a Real Ale, but they sure do sound appealing.

 

[Sam_92]

Traditionally they add fresh beer from the next batch to the cask so it conditions. I use priming sugar because I'm not making the same batches back to back.

 

[McMullan]

There are a number of ways to include fermentables for (primary) conditioning/carbonation in a cask or other vessel used as a surrogate for a cask. The most convenient (therefore probably most common?) method is to package green beer that has a few gravity points remaining and sufficient live yeast cells to ferment these fermentables efficiently (within a day or two) inside the sealed cask. In the UK, CAMRA suggests 0.1 million cells per ml. To me, that's quite a lot of yeast to put in a bottle beer. The cask is designed to hold quite high pressure, more than it's primed to hold, and its shape, when on its side, means the yeast sediment away from the serving (keystone) outlet. Cask ale is served at atmospheric pressure therefore it needs to be (secondary) conditioned prior to serving, where excess pressure is released slowly, i.e., overnight to a day or two. I don't think this process is easily done in a glass bottle and there is a good chance of getting bottle bombs. I wouldn't have a problem with giving it a go in something like a 2L PET bottle, though. For glass bottles I'd rather add priming sugar in a more controlled way.

 

[Jules Verne]

I see. That makes sense about adding fresh beer or casking the beer with some gravity points left. So the carbonation of cask ale can happen in the cellar because there is sufficient yeast and fermentables allowed by the cask to overcome the decrease in fermentation caused by the lower cellar temps? In this secondary conditioning that you mention, are you bringing the cask (or whatever surrogate you are using) up out of the cellar to room temperature for a couple of days, or is the cask still in the cellar? I'm still trying to understand the cask ale carbonation process in relation to temperature. That pillowy head mentioned earlier sounds nice. Thanks and cheers!

 

[McMullan]

No, the 'secondary' conditioning is about venting excess pressure to bring the cask down to atmospheric pressure. Also the ale is going bright at this stage, so the cask isn't to be moved. The 'primary' conditioning typically takes place at the brewery, probably at temperatures a bit higher than cellar temperature (about 12°C), but ale yeast condition ale fine at cellar temperature. It might take a day or so longer.

 

[Jules Verne]

Gotcha. Didn't know that ale yeast could keep working at those temps. That is very helpful to know. Thanks!