Came up with most of a recipe. Would like some guidance.

[HellPhish]

9lb Marris Otter
1lb Crystal 60
8oz Breiss Chocolate
5oz Brown Malt
5oz Oats
5oz Victory
4oz Biscuit

1oz Liberty 45 minute
1oz Fuggles 10 minute

60 minute mash

That is what I have so far.

Now.. the Victory, Brown, and Biscuit additions can be changed and/or dropped. As it stands, all three of those are 8% total. Those 3 have the flavors I want (biscuity, nutty, etc) so for now, they are in the recipe until I figure out how to get what I want most efficiently.

If you've ever had 'Thunder Amber,' thats sort of what I'm going for.

So, what advice do you have?

 

[giraffe]

Having the OG, IBUs, Yeast, and intended mash schedule is always useful to see what you are trying to do.

In general, its a good principle to get all the flavors you want with the least amount of malts possible . Only add malts for a reason.

For instance biscuit and victory are basically different countries version of the same malt. Just pick one, whose flavor you like more. And victory/biscuit and brown are both toasted malts, just different levels of toast. Are both necessary, or is it just going to end up muddy? You are also getting a fair amount of toasty-ness from the base malt remember.

Ive never had thunder amber, so I cant comment there.

 

[HellPhish]

Having the OG, IBUs, Yeast, and intended mash schedule is always useful to see what you are trying to do.

In general, its a good principle to get all the flavors you want with the least amount of malts possible . Only add malts for a reason.

For instance biscuit and victory are basically different countries version of the same malt. Just pick one, whose flavor you like more. And victory/biscuit and brown are both toasted malts, just different levels of toast. Are both necessary, or is it just going to end up muddy? You are also getting a fair amount of toasty-ness from the base malt remember.

Ive never had thunder amber, so I cant comment there.

I was thinking of using the Wyeast 1056. OG is estimated at 1.057. IBU is at 16.8 with Liberty and Fuggles.

I did not know that about Victory/Biscuit

The thunder amber had a nutty (almond or walnut) flavor that mixed nicely with a Biscuit flavore which melded with a small hint of earthiness. nice creamy, thick, mouth feel.

 

[Barley_Bob]

In general, its a good principle to get all the flavors you want with the least amount of malts possible . Only add malts for a reason.

I don't agree. There are some crazy good beers that have very complex malt mills (3Floyd's Alpha King comes to mind). There also are some crazy good beers that have very simple malt bills (Stone's Ruination comes to mind). It's a matter of personal preference. I for one like complex malt bills, and I've done brews with at least 7 different malts.

Looking at the recipe, nothing is jumping off the page as really out of place. You can use both victory and biscuit if you want. It's not going to hurt anything. I also don't know that you need to. Biscuit is supposed to be more bready, while victory is more nutty. This one is up to you. It would be easier to just use one, and it would give you a better idea of what they're like independently. You can also use a lot more oats. I routinely use up to a pound. They're awesome (toasted or untoasted), and will definitely add creaminess. I've seen recipes with up to two pounds, even. Finally, the caveat to my critique is that I haven't used brown malt before, and I therefore can't definitively comment on it.

Make some tweaks if you like, think about what giraffe and I have said, and go for it.

 

[HellPhish]

I don't agree. There are some crazy good beers that have very complex malt mills (3Floyd's Alpha King comes to mind). There also are some crazy good beers that have very simple malt bills (Stone's Ruination comes to mind). It's a matter of personal preference. I for one like complex malt bills, and I've done brews with at least 7 different malts.

Looking at the recipe, nothing is jumping off the page as really out of place. You can use both victory and biscuit if you want. It's not going to hurt anything. I also don't know that you need to. Biscuit is supposed to be more bready, while victory is more nutty. This one is up to you. It would be easier to just use one, and it would give you a better idea of what they're like independently. You can also use a lot more oats. I routinely use up to a pound. They're awesome (toasted or untoasted), and will definitely add creaminess. I've seen recipes with up to two pounds, even. Finally, the caveat to my critique is that I haven't used brown malt before, and I therefore can't definitively comment on it.

Make some tweaks if you like, think about what giraffe and I have said, and go for it.

One idea is to remove the brown and make Victory 10oz and up Biscuit to 5oz to keep the combined percentage the same (8%). Or I could keep the 'throw everything against the wall' approach..lol. A nice complementary mixture of the nutty, bready, and slightly earthy flavors is what I am going for.

Oats, I've read, can become a bit of a difficulty during the mash and can make the beer a bit oily if there is too much. I don't really know the rule of thumb for oats. For the biscuit and nutty flavors, I've read that the rule of thumb is a max of 9-10% one would want to prevent either flavor from being overpowering.

I guess in the end, what I'm trying to do is a little more complex flavor wise. I'm leaning on the experience you guys have.

 

[JonM]

I just kicked a keg of a fantastic beer that was 9 lbs of Maris Otter and 1 lb. of C-45. It was a beautiful amber color with tons of wonderful malt flavor.

I'm a KISS guy. So I'd ditch everything below the C-60. If you want it as dark as a porter, keep the chocolate.

 

[HellPhish]

I just kicked a keg of a fantastic beer that was 9 lbs of Maris Otter and 1 lb. of C-45. It was a beautiful amber color with tons of wonderful malt flavor.

I'm a KISS guy. So I'd ditch everything below the C-60. If you want it as dark as a porter, keep the chocolate.

I'm going for a specific mix of flavors

 

[drainbamage]

I agree with Jon that the chocolate malt will probably darken it past amber ale territory (if color is all that important to you).

I don't have any experience with brown malt, but between the brown/Victory/biscuit, I'd take maybe 2 of the 3 and tweak the amounts to keep the same % of the grain bill.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I just kicked a keg of a fantastic beer that was 9 lbs of Maris Otter and 1 lb. of C-45. It was a beautiful amber color with tons of wonderful malt flavor.

I'm a KISS guy. So I'd ditch everything below the C-60. If you want it as dark as a porter, keep the chocolate.

Maris Otter is a great malt that does come with a lot of flavor on its own. I totally agree. I do like to play with lots of different malts, so I thought I would chime in to note that both work. The more you add, the more you do have to keep balance in perspective.

One idea is to remove the brown and make Victory 10oz and up Biscuit to 5oz to keep the combined percentage the same (8%). Or I could keep the 'throw everything against the wall' approach..lol. A nice complementary mixture of the nutty, bready, and slightly earthy flavors is what I am going for.

Oats, I've read, can become a bit of a difficulty during the mash and can make the beer a bit oily if there is too much. I don't really know the rule of thumb for oats. For the biscuit and nutty flavors, I've read that the rule of thumb is a max of 9-10% one would want to prevent either flavor from being overpowering.

I guess in the end, what I'm trying to do is a little more complex flavor wise. I'm leaning on the experience you guys have.

For a ~5 gal batch you can very safely use 1lb of oats. Torrified wheat shows up in a lot of English beers too, and it (or another wheat) would be a nice substitution if you're worried about the oats.

I will say, in defense of simpler malt bills, that they're much easier to balance, and it's much easier to understand what's going on taste wise. If you use only two or three malts, it's much easier to narrow down where your flavors are coming from, and it's much easier to make changes to suit your preferences. You could easily winnow this down to three core malts you want to test.

 

[HellPhish]

For a ~5 gal batch you can very safely use 1lb of oats. Torrified wheat shows up in a lot of English beers too, and it (or another wheat) would be a nice substitution if you're worried about the oats.

I will say, in defense of simpler malt bills, that they're much easier to balance, and it's much easier to understand what's going on taste wise. If you use only two or three malts, it's much easier to narrow down where your flavors are coming from, and it's much easier to make changes to suit your preferences. You could easily winnow this down to three core malts you want to test.

I will trust you about the oats. I guess I'm trying too hard to one shot this recipe..heh. What 3 would I use for the set of flavors I want? Otter, Victory, Oats?

Drain, the chocolate is more about color. I could cut that down a bunch or even eliminate it from the recipe.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I will trust you about the oats. I guess I'm trying too hard to one shot this recipe..heh. What 3 would I use for the set of flavors I want? Otter, Victory, Oats?

Drain, the chocolate is more about color. I could cut that down a bunch or even eliminate it from the recipe.

That's probably the three I would pick. You could do crystal instead of victory. Depends on what you want to do. Oats are excellent.

If it's about color, you can just toss in 2 or 3oz of the chocolate. Works great to darken it a little.

 

[HellPhish]

That's probably the three I would pick. You could do crystal instead of victory. Depends on what you want to do. Oats are excellent.

If it's about color, you can just toss in 2 or 3oz of the chocolate. Works great to darken it a little.

I want the flavors I talked about to be very noticeable and to meld nicely in an almost layered sort of way.

Essentially, a clone of that Thunder Amber.


Heres a question that may blow up the recipe as it sits:
Is it better to get much of the flavor from a base malt (like above using the Otter) or is it advantageous to use a base with what I would say is a 'neutral' flavor like Domestic 2-row? On top of it would go the C-60, Biscuit and/or Victory, Oats, etc. I could go either way and can see reasons for both.. however..

 

[Barley_Bob]

I've never had Thunder Amber, and I'm not really the right person to talk about cloning anyway.

But if you steer things in the direction they're going now, you're going to have a great beer. You should definitely stick with the Maris Otter, though. It is great. And there's nothing stopping you from layering in malts on top of it.

 

[HellPhish]

After some revisions and going off of advice from you guys:

9lbs Otter
1lb C-60
10oz Victory
5oz Biscuit
5oz Oats
4oz Chocolate (way too light without it..lol)

Mash temp: 155* Time: 60 minutes


Boil:
.5oz Liberty at 60 minutes
1oz Fuggles at 30 minutes
.5oz Liberty at 15 minutes

After cooled down: Wyeast 1056

Predicted OG is 1.056
Predicted Final is 1.017
5.5% ABV

I'm also planning on a couple 'Nut Trios' that will only be 3 grains based on advice given.