Burton Ale Yeast WLP023 - Big disappointment

[riromero]

I really dig the fruity english ale yeast profile. I heard that you get this flavor in spades with Burton Ale yeast WLP023 so I gave it a shot.

When making my starter I stepped it up from 200ml to 1000ml over the course of four days. When I sampled the starter beer from the first step it was slightly sour; I suspected contamination but I forged ahead. The next two starter steps tasted normal so I figured it was safe to proceed.

Now after fermenting at 70F (White Labs recommends 68F-73F) for a week, I'm getting a definite sourness in the entire batch. Not overpowering, but not the fruity profile I was expecting (unless you count sour fruit). Now I'm wondering, is this normal for Burton Ale yeast, or did I ferment too high, or maybe I got a minor infection? Any clues?

 

[Freezeblade]

I really dig the fruity english ale yeast profile. I heard that you get this flavor in spades with Burton Ale yeast WLP023 so I gave it a shot.

When making my starter I stepped it up from 200ml to 1000ml over the course of four days. When I sampled the starter beer from the first step it was slightly sour; I suspected contamination but I forged ahead. The next two starter steps tasted normal so I figured it was safe to proceed.

Now after fermenting at 70F (White Labs recommends 68F-73F) for a week, I'm getting a definite sourness in the entire batch. Not overpowering, but not the fruity profile I was expecting (unless you count sour fruit). Now I'm wondering, is this normal for Burton Ale yeast, or did I ferment too high, or maybe I got a minor infection? Any clues?

70 liquid temp? or the room was 70 degrees? If the room was 70, then the fermenting beer was higher by at least 5 degrees, it not more, which would cause some esters that are undesirable.

 

[riromero]

Yes, it was liquid temperature.

 

[BuzzCraft]

I've had only good results with this yeast (in pale ales and porters, but esp the latter). No sourness in my experiences.

 

[KellyK]

No, sourness is not normal for Burton. We use this yeast all the time and have never had a problem with it. Usually fermet 65-70 so I don't think your temp was an issue. Produces some wonderful English style beers. If your starter tasted sour, I'd guess you had an infection start there that you carried over into your fermenter.

 

[cookietruck]

first time i used it, i was fermenting only 3 gallons so i didn't do a starter.
ferment temps were kinda high too, 73* for short period.
so i probably underpitched and fermented high...i had a quite subtle sour/tart kinda flavor that i think was the yeast. it's been maybe 5 months and the sour taste has kinda subsided...

i think you're tasting the yeast.

i used the yeast in a stout and didn't get any weird flavors.

i have a black IPA that is finishing up now with wlp023 also, took a reading at 5 days, went from 1.076 to ~1.028, didn't taste sweet and not too many esters either, no sourness.
i let that ferment around 66-67 for 3 days then it rose up to ~71*

 

[cookietruck]

i checked the gravity again last night (2 or 3 days later) and it's still ~1.028.
doesn't taste overly sweet, no pronounced esters, no sour/tart flavors, hop flavor and aroma is awzm.

i gave the wort a good but gentle stir to release some gas and get everything in suspension again. hopefully this will get just a bit lower.

when i was mashing i broke my thermometer. so used an extra one to monitor the mash temp and i haven't checked it. the thermometer said i was at 154* but i guess it could've been as high as 158* if the thermometer is far off...

 

[Shaggyt]

I used the WLP023 in a black IPA (Cascadian Dark Ale) awhile back. I found that the front of the finished beer had a sourness to it and the gravity samples were extremely bitter, not tasty.

Then I let it age...turned out great. I think what you might be experiencing is the harshness of the hops overpowering the fruity esters...just a thought.

Patience should help...if not, infection.

**edit**I should clarify that I let it age while drinking it over about a month. I was the primary drinker on the entire keg with a few exceptions. I could taste the changes over time.

 

[mlsouth]

I see this is a really old post but just some good feedback. Brewed an ESB/Special Bitter with the new Burton IPA yeast 3 months ago. After 6 weeks the hops were overbearing and in general the beer tasted bad. Instead of dumping it, I set it aside for another 6 weeks and retasted. Its now a completely different beer-classic ESB/Special Bitter and tastes great. Don't know if that's typical of the yeast or the fact I used a decent amount of British Medium and Dark Crystal Malts (13%) which just needed more time to age. I have not found I need to age Whitbread yeast, but other British yeasts seem to follow a similar pattern.

 

[pvpeacock]

I just used this yeast for the first time in a North Eastern IPA (10.5 gallon split batch with one using Burton and the other using London Ale yeast). I had 5.25 galllons of wort in a 7 gallon conical fermenter at 66 degrees. On day 2, I went into my garage and saw that the S style airlock was completely clogged with krausen the consistency of yogurt, the conical lid was bulging from the built up pressure and krausen was oozing out from under the rubber lid seal. When I pulled the airlock out, there was a huge whooooosh and krausen splattered everywhere. Holy cow. I have never needed a blow off tube when fermenting 5 to 5 1/2 gallons in my 7 gallon conical fermenters, even when using various saison yeasts. This Burton yeast is unbelievable! I will be curious how it ends up tasting when it is done, but I learned not to use this yeast again without a blow off tube.

 

[pvpeacock]

I made a second batch of NEIPA with Burton and had the same explosive fermentation at 66 degrees. This time I top cropped for the first time and saved the yeast in a canning jar in the refrigerator. I am now on generation 3 of the same yeast top cropping each time. Each time, I had to use a blow off tube given the krausen. Crazy stuff.

 

[hopbrad]

I made a second batch of NEIPA with Burton and had the same explosive fermentation at 66 degrees. This time I top cropped for the first time and saved the yeast in a canning jar in the refrigerator. I am now on generation 3 of the same yeast top cropping each time. Each time, I had to use a blow off tube given the krausen. Crazy stuff.

can you give us some notes of the beer(flavors) compared to the London Ale III?

 

[pvpeacock]

I haven't used London Ale III, so I can't compare. However, I made 3 more batches by top cropping during fermentation. The 1st two came out very good -- reminiscent of a British ESB. However, the most recent batch (3rd generation yeast) is extremely sour. It starts out tasting like the Chinook hops I used then morphs into a sour apple flavor and ultimately leaves an apricot aftertaste. This batch did not have the same explosive fermentation as the prior batches and I did not need a blow off tube like before. The beer is only 4 weeks old, so I will give it some time. Hopefully, it mellows with time.

 

[bolus14]

Sorry for the thread revival,but doesn't seem to be much info on the strain.

I just bottled and Amber Ale, pretty standard grist, and bittered to about 30IBU using all Nugget, starting at 30 min with a 10 min and flameout additions. It finished at 1.018 which gave it about 69% attenuation which is a little surprising since Many say they get better than 75.

The odd thing is the beer has a taste almost like Bud Light and Budweiser mixed, at least what I think they might taste like mixed, I'm not a fan of either and haven't had one in a long time so... My thought is that hopefully it's just a green still, had 3 weeks in the fermenter and then bottled. Didn't get much of the maltiness I was expecting based on the initial wort and first hydro samplings. Only other thing is maybe that's how Nugget hops come across when used without any other hops.

Any thoughts?

 

[bierhaus15]

That yeast does produce a certain apple-pear like ester profile that can taste very similar to acetaldehyde, which is where you probably get the Budweiser association. That said, 69% attenuation is pretty low for that yeast, which typically finishes dry with fruity-mineral flavors. If the yeast was under pitched or oxygenated, those flavors (and acetaldehyde levels) can be elevated... and hence the low attenuation.

I would suggest letting the bottles sit for a while as those flavors may improve with time. You may want to take a look at your fermentation process, ect, as well.

 

[bolus14]

Thanks for the feedback. I've always associated acetaldehyde with more of a sourness, not macro brew tasting...

This is my first time time using this strain, and going by White Labs documentation, 69% is low but still within they're stated attenuation level. I did mash at 158 so maybe that's playing into it as well.

Not saying my process is flawless but I did the same things I have in the past with oxygenation, fermentation started at 64/65 and then raised to 70 after 4 days which is when it looked like it was slowing down. If looked like it was finished around day 10, then I let it sit for another 11 days.

From what I've read on the strain it seems like most have more like 75-80% attenuation, but it also seems like many of those are mashing around 150-152.

At this point I'll likely try a couple each week until they're good then move the remaining bottles to the fridge in bulk. I have another brew, a Graf, fermenting now with this yeast too so I'll see if there's any consistency there. For that I was really hoping to get the Apple/Pear esters to help bring across the Apple flavor.

If anybody else has thoughts or experiences with this strain please post them. I'm really hoping after a week or two of bottle conditioning the flavors smooth out.

 

[Queequeg]

I love Burton yeast. You just gotta treat it right, ferment cool during first 3 days and give it plenty of time on the cake. If you move it too soon you'll get acetyl aldehyde, same is true if you ferment to warm.

The strain produces esters reminiscent of many Trappist strains, only milder. It's not the most natural yeast for pale beers imo, I think it plays better with darker malt flavours.

 

[bolus14]

Well, my beer has been in bottles for a week now, tried a couple after they we're in the fridge for 24 and 48 hours each. Intially there's a maltyness, sweet caramel/toffee that I like, it quickly gets over taken by a flowery taste that is hard to get past.

I'm really hoping another week in the bottles allows the flowery/floral taste to dissipate, otherwise I'm pretty sure these will get dumped, unfortunately. In 4 yrs of brewing I have only dumped 12 bottles of a wheat beer t okhat I just couldn't get through.

To get back to the yeast topic, this is the first I've heard of this strain having any Belgian characteristics, which is fine by me. Ommegang's Rare Vos was my favorite as I was getting into craft beers, so I don't mind the trapppist/belgiany side of things. But, I'm not getting any of that with this beer. I honestly don't know if it's the hops, the yeast, a combination of the two or what, but at this point it's tough to drink for me.

I have my second beer with this strain going right now, is a Graf, 3 gallons of wort and 2 gallon of apple juice. It's only been in the fermenter for a little over a week, I haven't sampled it yet, might tomorrow. If there's any sign of floral/flowers in that it has to be something with this strain, guess we'll see.

Just to clarifyy process on each brew, first one the temp was at 63-64 when fermentation started, kept it there for a few days over a week it went up to 70, then held there till it finished. The second one I started at 65, and have held it there for the first week. Depending on where the gravity is tomorrow I may keep it there or raise it a couple degrees if it seems like it needs it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well, my beer has been in bottles for a week now, tried a couple after they we're in the fridge for 24 and 48 hours each. Intially there's a maltyness, sweet caramel/toffee that I like, it quickly gets over taken by a flowery taste that is hard to get past.

I'm really hoping another week in the bottles allows the flowery/floral taste to dissipate, otherwise I'm pretty sure these will get dumped, unfortunately.

Woah - have some patience, many British homebrewers would say that their brown beers don't really sort themselves out until 3-6 months in bottle. These aren't NEIPAs where you're drinking them near-raw.

Having said that, it sounds like you're discovering why Nugget SMaSHes aren't a thing. Nugget has a ludicrously lop-sided oil profile that is almost all linalool. Here's a description :

linalool is found as two stereoisomers (S, R), each having different thresholds and aroma qualities: S-linalool has a sweeter, more floral aroma and an odor threshold of about 7ppb, while R-linalool has a wood, spicy, and lavendar-like character and a much lower threshold at less than 1ppb. Regardless of the total level of linalool in a hop variety, the ratio of these stereoisomers in fresh hops seems to be fairly consistent: about 93% of it is in the R form. Generally, linalool’s threshold in beer is much higher – upwards of 100ppb (2.2 and 180ppb, for R and S respectively).

Is the floral characteristic heading towards lavender?

 

[bolus14]

I guess you could say there's some lavender like quality to it. And, yes I agree definitely would say I'm rushing it a bit. I've been brewing more ipa and wheats lately and didn't really give thought to the timing.

At an OG of 1.060 I wouldn't think it would need much aging time. I was more or less hoping to give them another week or two in the bottle and then start moving them to the fridge. I'm going to look into the oil profile a little more, my original plan was to go with EKG and Brewers Gold, but at the last minute changed it, no good reason why.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

At an OG of 1.060 I wouldn't think it would need much aging time. I was more or less hoping to give them another week or two in the bottle and then start moving them to the fridge. I'm going to look into the oil profile a little more, my original plan was to go with EKG and Brewers Gold, but at the last minute changed it, no good reason why.

Those British brewers I mentioned are typically making beer of 1.040. It's not so much the gravity as the balance of flavours - malt led beers just need time for the flavours to meld together properly. You've not given us a detailed recipe, but the way you were talking of an initial "maltyness, sweet caramel/toffee" makes it sound like the kind of beer that will be better towards Christmas. You don't have to have it taking up fermenting fridge space, just find somewhere coolish (55F would be ideal but even in a bedroom or somewhere) to keep it for a month or three.

FWIW Brewer's Gold is pretty much unknown in the UK, despite its historical importance in breeding. My personal favourite blend is Goldings and Bramling Cross, but First Gold or some of the newer ones like Jester also play nicely with Goldings.

 

[bolus14]

Thanks for the input, true English styles are still a little new to me, at least the specifics of each style. Yeast strains seem to be different compared to most "American" strains too. I've done some Belgians and typically got what I expected from those strains. American strains to me seem to be pretty easy to deal with as long as you can keep the temps between 65-75, yes you may get a little more esters from higher temps, but overall still make good beer and aren't finicky.

Just for the heck of it I tried another bottle tonight, was in the fridge for almost 72 hours. The floral aspect was more muted, still there and got more prevelant towards the end of the glass. I'm really starting to wonder if its yeast in suspension. The pour from the bottles have all still been murky, far from clear. I know this strain is supposed to be a medium floccer, just seems to be taking it's time. As you have mentioned it's seems to be a matter of just needing to give it some more time for everything to settle and come together.

 

[kh54s10]

Woah - have some patience, many British homebrewers would say that their brown beers don't really sort themselves out until 3-6 months in bottle. These aren't NEIPAs where you're drinking them near-raw.

Having said that, it sounds like you're discovering why Nugget SMaSHes aren't a thing. Nugget has a ludicrously lop-sided oil profile that is almost all linalool. Here's a description :


Is the floral characteristic heading towards lavender?

Patience is key.. Especially with darker, maltier beers/

As to Nugget. I tried a Maris Otter/Nugget SMaSH. What I described it as was: interesting........ I drank it but.....

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just for the heck of it I tried another bottle tonight, was in the fridge for almost 72 hours. The floral aspect was more muted, still there and got more prevelant towards the end of the glass. I'm really starting to wonder if its yeast in suspension. The pour from the bottles have all still been murky, far from clear. I know this strain is supposed to be a medium floccer, just seems to be taking it's time.

The muting in this case sounds like the temporary effect of being served cold rather than anything else. The typical pub cellar is 54-57F, and I find the best serving temperature for bottled British beers is around 46-50F (it means you can see them develop and hit the right temperature about halfway down a pint), straight out the fridge kills them rather.

Having said all that, although I've not used WLP023 I get the impression that it's not one for beginners. Given that all British brewers have traditionally needed a yeast that drops quickly and hard for serving from casks, any yeast that doesn't flocc well has traditionally been used in a blend with other yeast that do drop quickly. So if you're just exploring the style then it's probably wise to stick to "easier" strains that do drop well like WLP002/1968 and WLP041 (which despite a link to Redhook is actually a close cousin of WLP002) or Nottingham.

 

[bolus14]

Yeah, could be the serving temp, but honestly it didn't really get a chance to warm up much, opened it to drink by the pool and within a couple minutes a thunderstorm appeared out of nowhere, so I drank it quickly while putting umbrellas down and closing some stuff up.

I have used 002 a few times, definitely drops without a problem. My reasoning for 023 was more being intrigued by the described esters and because of it's reported successfulness in Porter's and stouts.

The particular beer we've been talking about was kind of a last minute decision, was intended to be along the lines of a Bells Amber clone to build up some yeast for a 9-11% stout. Originally I was going to use some washed WY1272 that I had, but I had also been thinking of trying a different strain for darker beers, so some quick googleing around led me to 023.

The 023 descriptions also played into the beer I have fermenting now, a Graf. If I get the apple/pear esters that the strain should give off then it should accentuate the apple flavors, I hope.

 

[Queequeg]

lol, 002 droping without a problem is typically a problem leaving wort un- fermented. Burton is the exact opposite, I have previously had to rack from under the krasuen, if you use finings you risk off flavors with it.

Give it plenty of time then rack from under the krausen. It works great in dark beers, that said I did an English IPA with it that was really nice, the ester profile is great.

I think a lot of the hate for this yeast comes from expecting it to behave like other English strains, it ferments fast but doesn't flocc and needs a significant amount to time to clean up. You also need to keep it cool, any lapse in fermentation temperature and it will punish you.

This thread is really making me want to brew and English golden ale with Burton.

 

[bolus14]

So, after another week of conditioning and tasting the second beer I made with this yeast I'm confident in saying the floral like taste I'm getting is definitely from the hops. The second beer has nothing of the sort, that used El Dorado hops and had 2 gallons of Apple Juice, with 3 gallons of wort.

I'm not getting a clear green apple flavor or tartness in either, maybe a hint in the background but it's nowhere near a prominent flavor. Second beer also seems to be clearing up at the 3 week mark and looks like it will finish with 80% attenuation. Flavors are still coming together on this one though and I'm expecting it to become a little sweeter and the malt to hopefully provide a little more caramel background than where it's at right now. El Dorado hops have always given the impression of a higher FG to me, and hopefully the yeast will bring out the maltiness.

Next up is going to be an imperial stout of some sort using part of the yeast cake of the beer fermenting now or some that I washed from the first brew. White Labs says it can handle up to 10% so I'm going to give her a run and see what she does. Was originally thinking of a Westbrook's Mexican Cake clone, but might go with less of a dessert like recipe.

Anyways, at this point I'm happy with this strain at this point, doesn't seem to be overly eatery or fruit for an English strain, seems easy enough to get it to fully ferment. I would like to see it floc a little more, at this point that's my only complaint.

 

[Queequeg]

Definitely do a Dark beer with it.

 

[bolus14]

The RIS, or imperial stout, whatever you want to call it is brewed. Search for Mexican Cake clone and you should find the recipe I used.

I'll follow up with how it turns out in a month or so before it goes into bottles.

 

[couchsending]

Do you have good temp control? If you’re going to use this yeast on a huge beer you’ll need to keep it under control for a while preferable on the low end.

 

[bolus14]

I can keep it in the low 60's without much of a problem. My basement floor stays at 60 then with a swamp cooler I have pretty good luck keeping temps below 65. Controlling around 70 gets to be tricky.

 

[bolus14]

I can keep it in the low 60's without much of a problem. My basement floor stays at 60 then with a swamp cooler I have pretty good luck keeping temps below 65. Controlling around 70 gets to be tricky.

So the Imperial Stout has been fermenting for a little over 4 days now. Yesterday I had to clean the airlock and put a blowoff on, when I checked in the morning the lid was off on one side and airlock was full, temp was at 65. She push only a little bit of krausen into the blowoff tube through the rest of the day. This morning it looked like it was slowing down enough to put the airlock back in, so if nothing changes I'll do that tonight as well as try to get the temp up a coupled degrees so it doesn't stall.

This is my third time using this yeast and twice it has blown the lid off, so I would encourage to just start with a blowoff. I had a couple gallons of headspace both times so it seems to be a pretty aggressive strain once it gets going, it took 3-4 days both times.

 

[bolus14]

Just some insight on the second beer I made with this yeast, the Graf. There's definitely some tart/green apple aroma, not as strong taste wise but still present.

This beer is also cloudy and seems to be staying that way. The first beer, the Nugget hopped one, is still cloudy even after the bottles have been in the fridge for at least a few weeks. White Labs states this as being a medium flocculating strain, but from what I'm seeing there's no doubt I would call it low.

The stout is still going, went pretty strong for 4-5 days then slowed down. It's still showing an airlock bubble about every 5-10 seconds though. Pretty funky smells coming from the airlock on this brew, didn't get that from the first two. I did peak in to see if the Krausen had dropped and from what I could see it had in all but one small spot.

It'll be another 3-4 weeks before I bottle this one, from there I'll likely sample them somewhat slowly. Being a 10% ABV it should get better with some aging.

 

[Mutant]

Ten days ago, I brewed 12 gallons of the same SRM 8, IBU 55, OG 1.071 for a 'British Strong Ale' and split it up into three 5-gallon kegs. I normally had only used WLP022 for this recipe, but given it is a seasonal yeast I decided to test WLP005, WLP013, and WLP023. WLP005 hit FG 1.015, and the other overshot that and ended up at 1.012 or 1.013. I can't say much negative about any of these three yeasts and wish I had a WLP022 to compare them to. Each is unique in its own way, and all fit the bill for a 'British Strong Ale' (other than overshooting the FG). My only regret is that I had planned on incorporating a bit of flaked barley and forgot. The base was mostly a combo of Maris Otter and Simpson Golden Promise, with some minor additions. Hops were Target, EKG, and Challenger. I've barely consumed 20 oz from these and am ready to pump out another 12 (or more) gallons. The difficult choice is choosing the yeast or yeasts to use.