Burton ale yeast help

[madscientistbrewNq]

So did a coconut brown yesterday, pitched 1 vial of white labs burton (no I didn't do a started) in 5.5 gallons with an og of 1.051. Temp at pitch was 73 degrees and I aerated real well. Going on close to 24 hrs- no activity. Usually with my other brews I was good by 8 hrs.

Should I pitch a dry packet of s-04 that I have on hand or am I screwed....

I will admit my ambient temps in the basement were a bit cold so the brown is at roughly 64. I'm putting it in my ferm cabinet and tossing a fermwrap around it. This was my first time using white labs and didn't have time to do a starter. Now I may never use whitelabs again. Per the vial it said I would be fine but the blow off tube hasn't pushed out a single bubble meanwhile my s-05 rye ipa is chugging away.

 

[Cider123]

64F is a good temp to ferment a british ale. I wouldn't go any higher than 68F max. I try to pitch in the 60's also. A vial of ale yeast at 64F may need a a couple days to get going. I don't doubt it would take longer to start than 05 at a slightly warmer temp.

I would leave it alone for a few more days. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles.

 

[mdindy]

Leave it be you will be fine, give it a day or too more before you start to get nervous, I have used single vials of white labs in the past without a starter and they all came out fine.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Thanks, I was pretty close to tossing the s-04 in but figured I'd be best to ask. I asked the brewmaster at the brew shop when I purchased the tube and he said that he always does a started. I knew I was short on time and we agreed that pitching it for this batch size and og would be fine..... Well fast forward 24 hrs, never used white labs, and I was like ah I don't see anything going on. I had to think is it the temp given the vial suggested 68-73. So I have since put it in the ferm cabinet with my ipa with s-05 and will try to do both at 68.

If it doesn't take off by tomorrow evening any thoughts on the next steps? I have s-04 sitting in the fridge.

BTW Cider, I would have loved to get under 70 but my ground water has warmed up a bit. Early spring it would take me 5-10 minutes with a Jaded copper immersion chiller to get under 70. Now I'm averaging close to 30 minutes to get to 70-ish. I started going by the law of diminishing returns this weekend. I figured it probably would have taken me at least another 10 minutes so I said oh well.

 

[Cider123]

BTW Cider, I would have loved to get under 70 but my ground water has warmed up a bit. Early spring it would take me 5-10 minutes with a Jaded copper immersion chiller to get under 70. Now I'm averaging close to 30 minutes to get to 70-ish. I started going by the law of diminishing returns this weekend. I figured it probably would have taken me at least another 10 minutes so I said oh well.

Well, you know, you work with what you got. I live in Maine, so the water is free and it's damn cold most of the year (just like everything else)

I bet it will get going in the next 24 hours. In fact, it'll probably be going when you wake up tomorrow. A starter is helpful, but the vial will still work.

After 36-48 hours, I'd take a measurement if you have no visible sign. If you're still at your OG, then hydrate the 04 in some water and pitch it.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Thanks I will definitely follow your recommendations on this.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

So 36 hrs later and nothing. Any risks of tossing the s-04 on top of the burton to
sure fermentation starts?

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Well I was pissed so I went down took a reading. No movement at all and og was still 1.051 42 hrs later so I pitched the s-04 hopefully that was the right thing to do. I guess I will drop my ferm temps once it starts maybe 64 will be where I hold the s-04. Any thoughts, also any ill-effects from pitching the s-04. I'm guessing not since the burton was probably dead. I don't think I will use white labs again. Wyest and fermentis will be where I stay its ashame because I wanted to use Thames Valley Wyest but the homebrew store only carried Giga, Fermentis, and White labs.

I should have just waited to brew and did a starter I bet I would be dealing with a completely different scenario.

Undoubtedly my first true epic fail after 6 months of brewing other stuck sparges and cursing the lovely strike water temps. I'm sure I'm at high risk of an infection now despite trying to ensure proper sanitation.

Just throwing it out there but the 1 lb of toasted unsweetened coconut would have not effect on the yeast right? I can't imagine that it would but just trying to understand all of the variables that left me where I'm at.

 

[kh54s10]

36 hours is still too soon to decide that the yeast is not working. Read the thread about "It may take up to 72 hours". You under pitched by not making a starter so the first day or so the yeast will be multiplying more than fermenting.. White Labs is considered to be one of the best. So your decision to avoid them is unwarranted.

Your pitching of S-04 will not have any bad effects other that imparting a different flavor due to the different yeast.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Hmmm... I guess I will just have to give it a go with a starter next time. I just never waited this long and when I saw the og had not changed I figured I was in for it. If it had moved at all I would have left it alone. I suppose this is the joys of an amateur homebrewer. I stare at those darn carboys for the first couple days. Hopefully the beer doesn't end up tasting bad....

I will definitely read the it may take 72 hrs. I was under the impression with my previous research that ideally we want fermentation to begin roughly 24 hrs from when the yeast is pitched. Well technically sooner. You make a good point about underpitching and after just reading more about liquid yeast it seems this scenario should not have been a surprise. Starter or expect to wait for fermentation secondary to a low amount of viable yeast present unlike the dry packets.

 

[Gameface]

Hmmm... I guess I will just have to give it a go with a starter next time. I just never waited this long and when I saw the og had not changed I figured I was in for it. If it had moved at all I would have left it alone. I suppose this is the joys of an amateur homebrewer. I stare at those darn carboys for the first couple days. Hopefully the beer doesn't end up tasting bad....

I will definitely read the it may take 72 hrs. I was under the impression with my previous research that ideally we want fermentation to begin roughly 24 hrs from when the yeast is pitched. Well technically sooner. You make a good point about underpitching and after just reading more about liquid yeast it seems this scenario should not have been a surprise. Starter or expect to wait for fermentation secondary to a low amount of viable yeast present unlike the dry packets.

Why would a ferment that was slow to take off produce a beer that tastes bad?

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

No I wasn't indicating that a slow fermentation would result in a bad tasting beer but rather I'm not sure how the s-04 will work in the recipe I used which was very much like a Muduro Oatmeal Brown plus some toasted coconut. Also I've never used two different yeast products in one beer so I wasn't sure how that would ultimately play out.

A lot of the recipes I looked at used several different version of Wyest English style yeasts. I chose Burton because that's what was at the Brewstore and figured that would be closests to Thames Valley.

After 42 hrs, I assumed S-04 would probably be a reasonable product to use given my current state since it is still a English yeast.

Now, I do recall reading that underpitching can create off-flavors secondary to stress so I suppose I was predisposing my beer to such. From my understanding certain style of beers brewers may underpitch purposefully just not sure a brown ale would be one of those styles. Also I guess I could not attenuate down to the expected final gravity leaving a sweeter beer maybe.?.? Not to mention I guess there's always the risk of infection if the yeast doesn't get going which would also have negative effects on taste. Although who knows maybe a Sour Brown would be okay....

I suspect I was and probably still am... A victim of overthinking this whole process, etc...

 

[m00ps]

I use yeast blends all the time. But it looks like your burton yeast had a good head start, but didnt get too far. The s04 should be going by late tonight, definitely in the morning. Depending on whether your burton wakes up, that will determine which direction the final yeast profile steers towards

Either way, try to resist opening the fermentor several times

 

[Cider123]

Yeah, but you're not overthinking more than anyone else starting out. Now I think I was too vague when I said wait 36-48 hours. I meant 36-48 hours more after I sent my last post. A total of 36 hours from pitching is a bit early to make assumptions.

Oh well, so the 04 should take over now and yes, you'll just get a slightly different flavor, but you'll still make a good brown ale. Now that you added more yeast, make sure you're in the 63-68F range (are you sure your thermometer is accurate?) and leave it alone. Stop opening it up and peeking. This yeast now needs time to get going and all you'll do by messing with it is increase a chance of infection.


For your next british ale, 1275 is a good one. I like 1469 and a lot of folks swear by 1968. There's a bunch to try and have fun with, but the variation of ale yeast is only one small part of the flavor profile.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

I work with glass carboys so when I take a look its mostly just opening the freezer lid on the ferm cabinet. I don't use a thermowell so I'm operating off of the less accurate stick on thermometer strips. As far as temp control in the ferm cabinet I rely on the STC. Seems to work for me but by no means am I going to sit here and say I'm keeping the temps within a 0.5 degree or anything. I'm probably more like a 3 degree temp variation if I had to guess. Also I realize the temp on the outside is not necessarily indicative of the temp throughout the liquid so I work with what I got. I figured its at least a 2 step forward 1 step back kind of situation.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Well to be honest m00ps, I figured after 42 hrs I would have seen something so I figured let me check my gravity. Mind you I never check gravity until around 2 weeks when I'm about to dry hop for 7 days then I will check again when its time to bottle. When I saw the OG hadn't changed even a point I thought well I can ride this out or I can pitch some dry yeast and likely ensure that something happens sooner than later. So the newbie in me went with the later which I figured was the safer bet. Watch this be my best beer. I will be laughing my you know what off.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

We have lift off...