BruControl: Brewery control & automation software

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stat said:
I know I've seen a discussion on this problem somewhere but I can't find it again.

I'm almost done with a 45 gallon 3 phase brucontrol set up and I'm trying to fire 2 3 phase 9000w elements at the same time. If I wire all the SSRs directly to the Mega I can't fire all 4 at the same time without the mega resetting it self. The SSRs pull too much current on the signal side.
I tried a 4 channel relay board and it worked fine except for when I was near the set temp and the brucontrol pid started to rapidly actuate the relays. Not a long term solution and annoying to listen to.
I had some mosfet boards laying around for DC pump control so I thought I'd use those but they don't stop any voltage from passing through, so the SSRs were always on.

Is there a way I can stop the SSRs from being triggered 100% of the time with the mosfet boards or a different way to control the elements through brucontrol with the relay boards? Or should I find some small SSRs to pass the 12/24v signal to the big SSRs triggered by the mega's 5v signal?
Click to expand...

Can you post a schematic?
 
BrunDog said:
Can you post a schematic?
Click to expand...

It's going to be hand drawn but I'll make one. It occurred to me on the drive home that maybe the problem with the mosfets is that I have nothing wired to V-. The negative side of the SSRs are wired to ground and the mosfet V+ is wired to the + side of the SSR signal screw. Maybe I need to wire the SSR to V- on the mosfet board.

Using these boards.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=322850658939
I'll work on the schematics.
 
Can’t quite see the connections, but I think: GND are common grounds. VCC (not sure, likely 5V), SIG is output pin/port from MEGA. VIn can be 5V. V+ to SSRs’ input +DC side, V- to SSRs’ -DC side.

That unconnected V- should be ok as it should be a ground pass-through.

Btw should be careful anytime you see - voltage... technically this is a voltage level below ground, but these types of boards don’t exactly follow the conventions/rules.
 
BrunDog said:
Can’t quite see the connections, but I think: GND are common grounds. VCC (not sure, likely 5V), SIG is output pin/port from MEGA. VIn can be 5V. V+ to SSRs’ input +DC side, V- to SSRs’ -DC side.

That unconnected V- should be ok as it should be a ground pass-through.

Btw should be careful anytime you see - voltage... technically this is a voltage level below ground, but these types of boards don’t exactly follow the conventions/rules.
Click to expand...

First picture is maybe how I should wire it. Second picture where the SSR is wired to ground is how it is now. The way it's wired now there is constant 24v on V+ and Vin.


 
BrunDog said:
It should. Are you saying it isn’t?
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding so quickly! It wasn’t at first, but I played with the max integral and output on my second try. If I dialed back the max integral to say 30, I was able to get the output to display 30 (desired max output of 30). As long as both were the same, I had success. Higher max output, it was fine. Lower max output, no bueno. It seemed to default to the same value of the max integral.

Is this normal? I’m probably miss understanding something important. What I want to do is use a lower power for the mash heating and a higher power for strike heating.
 
swimIan said:
Thanks for responding so quickly! It wasn’t at first, but I played with the max integral and output on my second try. If I dialed back the max integral to say 30, I was able to get the output to display 30 (desired max output of 30). As long as both were the same, I had success. Higher max output, it was fine. Lower max output, no bueno. It seemed to default to the same value of the max integral.

Is this normal? I’m probably miss understanding something important. What I want to do is use a lower power for the mash heating and a higher power for strike heating.
Click to expand...

Maybe... maybe not. Admittedly I don’t think we ever tested combinations. I do know the max output should be the max allowable output because all the error calculations happen first, then if the result exceeds max, its clamped back to max as the final calculation. That said, I’ll test it and report back (it will be a couple of days). This must work correctly so we’ll fix it immediately if it isn’t. Thank you for raising the question.
 
stat said:
It's going to be hand drawn but I'll make one. It occurred to me on the drive home that maybe the problem with the mosfets is that I have nothing wired to V-. The negative side of the SSRs are wired to ground and the mosfet V+ is wired to the + side of the SSR signal screw. Maybe I need to wire the SSR to V- on the mosfet board.

Using these boards.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=322850658939
I'll work on the schematics.
Click to expand...
The mossfet boards use N FETs and therefore do low side switching. In lamens terms, they turn the GND on/off instead of the positive voltage rail. If you are going to use these then you need to pass the SSRs GND through the mosfet board and not directly tied to GND.

If you still have issues after that then you may need to add a 1 to 10k resistor across the SSR inputs to drain the voltage once the SSRs GND is disconnected since you technically have a floating input.
 
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crane said:
The mossfet boards use N FETs and therefore do low side switching. In lamens terms, they turn the GND on/off instead of the positive voltage rail. If you are going to use these then you need to pass the SSRs GND through the mosfet board and not directly tied to GND.

If you still have issues after that then you may need to add a 1 to 10k resistor across the SSR inputs to drain the voltage once the SSRs GND is disconnected since you technically have a floating input.
Click to expand...

BrunDog said:
Good point. So you can set the port output to Active Low for this.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys, that's what I was looking for.
 
BrunDog said:
Good point. So you can set the port output to Active Low for this.
Click to expand...
It should be set to active high. The mosfet will start conducting GND to the load once the gate is pulled high. Most of these boards have opto issolators on them that turn the FET on once when their inputs are high.

So even though you are switching GND, the SSR will turn on when the megas output it high.
 
crane said:
It should be set to active high. The mosfet will start conducting GND to the load once the gate is pulled high. Most of these boards have opto issolators on them that turn the FET on once when their inputs are high.

So even though you are switching GND, the SSR will turn on when the megas output it high.
Click to expand...

BrunDog said:
Yep, sorry... multitasking. @crane is correct... the FET switches low, not its gate gets switched low.
Click to expand...

Yeah I figured since I use the same board for a dc pump successfully, but it didn't seem worth posting about. Focus on your next release man I really look forward to it.

While we're on the topic what is everyone's favorite way to control the elements in the boil kettle? PID/Hysteresis/whatever the other one is?
Looking to not write a script. Maybe set a pid to 212 or whatever temp the sensor needs to read to get a good boil going. Right now the temp sensor is far away enough from the elements that it reads 206-208 or so during a decent boil, but that was when the electrician had the elements wired 120v->N instead of 120v->120v per loop. Had to run the elements at 100% power the whole time to boil 35 gallons, and it wasn't exactly jumping out of the kettle.

Unless someone has a really cool script I can copy, so I can just click boil.
 
stat said:
Yeah I figured since I use the same board for a dc pump successfully, but it didn't seem worth posting about. Focus on your next release man I really look forward to it.

While we're on the topic what is everyone's favorite way to control the elements in the boil kettle? PID/Hysteresis/whatever the other one is?
Looking to not write a script. Maybe set a pid to 212 or whatever temp the sensor needs to read to get a good boil going. Right now the temp sensor is far away enough from the elements that it reads 206-208 or so during a decent boil, but that was when the electrician had the elements wired 120v->N instead of 120v->120v per loop. Had to run the elements at 100% power the whole time to boil 35 gallons, and it wasn't exactly jumping out of the kettle.

Unless someone has a really cool script I can copy, so I can just click boil.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you figured it out. For the BK I use both a PID and Duty Cycle element. You can create 1 of each element with the same output. Whenever you want to heat to a specific temperature enable the PID and disable the Duty Cycle Element. Otherwise during the boil disable the PID and enable the Duty Cycle Element and set it to a specific duty cycle percentage to achieve your desired boil off rate.
 
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swimIan said:
Thanks for responding so quickly! It wasn’t at first, but I played with the max integral and output on my second try. If I dialed back the max integral to say 30, I was able to get the output to display 30 (desired max output of 30). As long as both were the same, I had success. Higher max output, it was fine. Lower max output, no bueno. It seemed to default to the same value of the max integral.

Is this normal? I’m probably miss understanding something important. What I want to do is use a lower power for the mash heating and a higher power for strike heating.
Click to expand...

BrunDog said:
Maybe... maybe not. Admittedly I don’t think we ever tested combinations. I do know the max output should be the max allowable output because all the error calculations happen first, then if the result exceeds max, its clamped back to max as the final calculation. That said, I’ll test it and report back (it will be a couple of days). This must work correctly so we’ll fix it immediately if it isn’t. Thank you for raising the question.
Click to expand...
BrunDog,

I can confirm this behavior--earlier I was having difficulty with changing MaxOutput on a PID for which I had set MaxIntegral to 100. If both were 100, no problems, but if I changed MaxOutput to a number lower than 100 with MaxIntegral still set at 100 the PID would set the output to 100. I just tested changing MaxOutput and MaxIntegral at the same time and the PID limited the output as expected.

-Adam
 
Thank you @swimIan and @adman for pointing out and verifying the above. As it turns out, you are correct. We have a limiter that has been in the firmware for a long while that did not accept a scenario where the Max Integral would be higher than the Max Output. The problem is BC software doesn't have the same expectation, so it accepted the parameters.When those parameters were passed to the interface, the interface ignored them internally.

We have made the change in v44K and will post up the update later today. Once again, thank you for reporting the issue!
 
swimIan said:
Does updating the interface firmware override or reset any Brucontrol application settings/scripts/etc?
Click to expand...
No, FW goes on devices( number of i/o, port numbers, communication, etc), and BC itself (pc) controls everything ( scripts, element names, etc).
 
@Die_Beerery is correct. It should be transparent to you. That said, you should always make a backup copy of your configuration file before making software or hardware changes.

Comment (and advanced topic): also, per a discussion above on the topic of PID and integral component, we are continuing to allow the integrator to calculate a negative contribution. What this means for brewing practically, is if your actual temperature is above your target temperature for a while, the integral will add up to a "large" negative amount (depending on your Ki and max integral setting) and, so when the actual temp falls below the target temp, it may not begin heating right away (as that negative integrator contribution will need to be bled off). We can make this a setting in the future, but for now... FYI unless the quorum preference is to keep the integrator uni-directional only.
 
I guess I should say the scripts related to Win10 on the RPI. I have been successfu[ running BruControl on Android running XP under emulation, albiet a little slowly.
 
That would be my concern. I personally don’t fully understand the allure of saving a few bucks to have a poor operating experience. The hardware is already complex and has an associated cost - why skimp on the front end?

That said, I’m down for the academic exercise, but if history tells us anything, it will be sub-optimal and can be remedied for a slightly larger investment in a used or mini PC.
 
BrunDog, my purpose for working on the emulation of your program is not driven by cost, but by a need to be mobile. I really like using a tablet rather than a PC. What I find is that after the program is up and running, I am good to go.
 
Can anyone recommend a 1/2" flow meter, preferably stainless body and rated to 90C or so? I've found a few that would probably work, but most seem to top out around 80C. Curious of any experience, good or bad, and what to look for.

Thanks,
Joe
 
RiverCityBrewer said:
Can anyone recommend a 1/2" flow meter, preferably stainless body and rated to 90C or so? I've found a few that would probably work, but most seem to top out around 80C. Curious of any experience, good or bad, and what to look for.

Thanks,
Joe
Click to expand...

I’ve only seen a couple that go that high. What flow range are you looking for? Is cost a factor?
 
BrunDog said:
[...]I personally don’t fully understand the allure of saving a few bucks to have a poor operating experience. The hardware is already complex and has an associated cost - why skimp on the front end?

That said, I’m down for the academic exercise, but if history tells us anything, it will be sub-optimal and can be remedied for a slightly larger investment in a used or mini PC.
Click to expand...

I never write something off without reason. I mean, I've literally designed things that I thought had no chance of hitting big sales numbers only to be stunned by announcement day orders that obliterated a cradle-to-grave marketing plan by two orders of magnitude. So....

Beyond that, I'm not sure there's "allure" per se, but surely interest, as if it can actually pull off a good experience the side benefits are substantial...

Cheers!

[edit] On a different note, apparently I need to get out more as today while picking up some electronic bits and pieces I discovered the bottom has literally fallen out of the Mega 2560 market and couldn't help but snap up a pair of InLand clones for $7 each just on GPs. Came with USB cables, no less. Woof.
 
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If it works it will be the solution for me due to location and setup.

Never mind, looks like it still needs a lot of work.
 
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BrunDog said:
I’ve only seen a couple that go that high. What flow range are you looking for? Is cost a factor?
Click to expand...
1-20Lpm is plenty, mostly looking for stainless body as it will likely be a structural component in the plumbing. The more I am thinking about it, 80C would probably be fine as I really don't need one in the boil, just MLT recirc and one for sparging. That said, within reason, no, cost is not a factor.

Thanks,
Joe
 
OK, I ask about cost since magnetic or ultrasonic sensors are relatively expensive, even second hand via ebay. If you are looking for a turbine, the cost is lower. That range is pretty wide for documented specifications... what you will find is the 1 lpm generally requires a smaller body, which limits flow on the upper end. Check out something like this: https://www.gemssensors.com/flow/electronic-flow-sensors/rotor-flow/rfo-types-flow-sensor
 
BrunDog said:
OK, I ask about cost since magnetic or ultrasonic sensors are relatively expensive, even second hand via ebay. If you are looking for a turbine, the cost is lower. That range is pretty wide for documented specifications... what you will find is the 1 lpm generally requires a smaller body, which limits flow on the upper end. Check out something like this: https://www.gemssensors.com/flow/electronic-flow-sensors/rotor-flow/rfo-types-flow-sensor
Click to expand...
I would like a better flow meter as well. I would also like better than 80 C. I heat my Pre Strike and Cleaning water to 85C (185 F). I could probably live with 80C, but I would have to do a test to see if I can get my Strike + 2 when I transfer to the MLT as I have heat loss due to piping and the Mash Tun itself. I used to heat to 175, but that was not enough.
 

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