Brown Recipe Help

[jeeppilot]

I’m working on a brown ale with a very specific flavor profile in mind. I’m looking to be quite malty, toasty, and sweet but not cloying. My current recipe has a lot of unfermentables. Also, trying to keep as much of the fruit out as possible and find good balance without the roasty element.

Here is what I have so far:

8 lbs Marris Otter
1 lb Carabrown
1 lb Lactose
.5 lb Crystal 120
.5 lb Pale Chocolate

Mash at 152 for an hour, boil an hour.
Magnum hopped to 27 IBU
EKG shortly before flameout

US-04

I have on hand some aromatic, honey malt, and Munich I could possibly add. Thoughts?

 

[brownni5]

I'm not familiar with Carabrown, so I can't comment on that, but why the lactose? I wouldn't like that much C-120, but that might be just me.

With that much unfermentable, I'd wager you passed "cloying" a while back.

 

[SanPancho]

I’m working on a brown ale with a very specific flavor profile in mind. I’m looking to be quite malty, toasty, and sweet but not cloying. My current recipe has a lot of unfermentables. Also, trying to keep as much of the fruit out as possible and find good balance without the roasty element.

Here is what I have so far:

8 lbs Marris Otter
1 lb Carabrown
1 lb Lactose
.5 lb Crystal 120
.5 lb Pale Chocolate

Mash at 152 for an hour, boil an hour.
Magnum hopped to 27 IBU
EKG shortly before flameout

US-04

I have on hand some aromatic, honey malt, and Munich I could possibly add. Thoughts?

This screams sweet.

The maris will take over the flavor. But if that’s all you have id drop the lactose, halve the crystal, and add aromatic and Munich. Make sure you have enough enzyme to convert. Personally I’d keep the pale choc to 2-3%, but if this is what you got, go for it. If for some reason you have more cara brown id go at least 20%.

 

[Dgallo]

That will be overly sweet. No need for lactose. Crystal 120 is going to give you that sweet dark raisin note, if you that’s a flavor you like in your darker beers than keep it.

As for carabrown, i don’t have experience using it so I can’t speak for it but I love using carafa II or III in a brown ale

 

[jeeppilot]

So the Carabrown I haven’t used before either but I hear it’s like Victory amped up. And 1 lb is all I have. The lactose is because I’m going “breakfast cereal-ish” and looking for that milky creaminess. Ill halve the C-120, maybe halve the lactose too? And add maybe .75 lbs each Munich and aromatic?

 

[SanPancho]

i think the issue is that between the maris, the lactose, crystal and yeast you gotta lotta things that point to sweet. Hard to judge as to me the lactose and yeast esters aren’t necessarily sweet, but might combine to amplify any sweetness the others impart.

 

[jeeppilot]

i think the issue is that between the maris, the lactose, crystal and yeast you gotta lotta things that point to sweet. Hard to judge as to me the lactose and yeast esters aren’t necessarily sweet, but might combine to amplify any sweetness the others impart.

So if I really want to keep the lactose, would I be better with US-05 and/or 2-Row? I have both of those as well. I guess I didn’t really think of Maris as sweetening. Golden Promise, yeah, but for me, never thought Maris.

 

[SanPancho]

Again, to me it’s not that it’s sweet per se, but it’s more in that direction vs plain two row. And i feel that if you start combining things that can be kinda associated with sweetness then they can tend to amplify each other. I think the bigger issue for me on the MO is that you only have about 10% brown malt, and I think maybe it’ll get lost behind the maris. And the Carabrown isn’t as potent as the regular brown in my experience. Maybe split the base into MO and two row if you have both.

 

[McKnuckle]

Sorry, I'm not understanding the aversion to Maris Otter at all. Maris Otter is just a British 2-row base malt. It is not inherently sweet any more than Pilsner or American 2-row is. Maris Otter is the basis for nearly all classic UK ales, since it's native to Britain, hence the traditionally thrifty British breweries tend to use it.

Maris Otter does not have some kind of overwhelming flavor where specialty malts will get "lost" behind it. This whole characterization just doesn't match my experience.

Also, ignoring the lactose for a moment and just focusing on your 10 lbs of grain; the crystal 120 represents 5% of the grist. That's a very reasonable level of crystal malt for a dark beer where the brewer wishes to have some caramel overtones.

Now, Carabrown I have no experience with. In general though, since it is a crystal malt, I would keep your total crystal component to 10% or less. For that reason, I would decide if you want to showcase the Carabrown or not. If so, make it something like 7% and then cut the C120 to 3%.

Alternately, get some lighter color crystal into the recipe. I think up to 3% of the honey malt (total crystal still 10% max) would be nice.

Depending on the SRM you are trying to hit, maybe you can get some classic malty but not roasty grain in there, like dark Munich, and either leave the pale chocolate alone, or cut it back a hair.

 

[McKnuckle]

Just for reference, here is an example of an American brown ale recipe that comes out tangy and rich, a little caramel, not roasty, and pairs really well with citrus and pine hops.

81% Maris Otter
6% UK Crystal 75
5% Victory
4% Special Roast
4% U.S. Chocolate (350L)
1% Carafa III

Color is about 20 SRM, OG around 1.047 (4.9% ABV), and I bitter to 27 IBU with 60, 30, and 10 minute additions of a chosen hop for 11, 10, and 6 IBU respectively. I last made it with Northern Brewer. Ferment with US-05 at 65-68ºF.

If you are water-savvy, the profile is Ca = 56, Na = 23, Cl = 53, SO4 = 62, created by adding gypsum, CaCl, and baking soda to distilled water.

 

[jeeppilot]

Sorry, I'm not understanding the aversion to Maris Otter at all. Maris Otter is just a British 2-row base malt. It is not inherently sweet any more than Pilsner or American 2-row is. Maris Otter is the basis for nearly all classic UK ales, since it's native to Britain, hence the traditionally thrifty British breweries tend to use it.

Maris Otter does not have some kind of overwhelming flavor where specialty malts will get "lost" behind it. This whole characterization just doesn't match my experience.

Also, ignoring the lactose for a moment and just focusing on your 10 lbs of grain; the crystal 120 represents 5% of the grist. That's a very reasonable level of crystal malt for a dark beer where the brewer wishes to have some caramel overtones.

Now, Carabrown I have no experience with. In general though, since it is a crystal malt, I would keep your total crystal component to 10% or less. For that reason, I would decide if you want to showcase the Carabrown or not. If so, make it something like 7% and then cut the C120 to 3%.

Alternately, get some lighter color crystal into the recipe. I think up to 3% of the honey malt (total crystal still 10% max) would be nice.

Depending on the SRM you are trying to hit, maybe you can get some classic malty but not roasty grain in there, like dark Munich, and either leave the pale chocolate alone, or cut it back a hair.

So Briess' data sheet lists Carabrown as a brown malt, which as I understand it is in a different realm than the crystals. It lists recommended usages up to 25% of the grist and this, "10-15% Smooth, more accentuated toasted, biscuity, nutty, graham cracker flavors and slightly dry finish." Admittedly it is a little deceiving strictly by name.

At the moment, I now have:

Maris - 70%
Carabrown - 10%
Aromatic - 5%
Lactose - 5%
Pale Chocolate - 4%
C-120 - 3%
Honey Malt - 2%

 

[SanPancho]

Sorry, I'm not understanding the aversion to Maris Otter at all. Maris Otter is just a British 2-row base malt. It is not inherently sweet any more than Pilsner or American 2-row is.

Now, Carabrown I have no experience with. .

This is pretty much self explanatory.

I have in fact used MO with Carabrown before, in quite a few versions of browns before we settled on the current version.

If you think that MO has no flavor difference than plain two row then boy that’s a conversation I’d love to see you start here as a separate thread.
If you actually read my responses you’ll see where I clearly state I’m not saying MO is sweet per se, but it has a tendency to accentuate sweetness in my opinion, especially when used with lactose, dark crystals and us04. And more to the point here, I think it will be the pronounced flavor here over the brown at only 10%.
Based on experience.

 

[McKnuckle]

If you think that MO has no flavor difference than plain two row then boy that’s a conversation I’d love to see you start here as a separate thread.

But that's not what I said at all. I simply said that it's not inherently sweet. It's just a base malt with character, capable of making an endless variety of beer styles from dry to sweet, bitter to mild, etc. etc.

Lactose, dark crystal, and low attenuating SO4 are more direct contributors to sweet characteristics, not the choice of base malt. Those elements combined with any base malt will go to the same general place.

But it's just my opinion and experience vs. yours, nobody wins, it's just conversation.

 

[McKnuckle]

@jeeppilot I can't say exactly what your recipe will be like, but it sure looks interesting with several characterful specialty malts in low percentages. Give it a shot!

 

[coonmanx]

Half a pound sounds like a lot of chocolate malt as a little goes a long ways. I also love using Biscuit malt in my brown ales but don't know if that will be too similar to the Carabrown.

 

[Yooper]

Carabrown is more common in some porters, as I do detect a roasty note. Also, I get quite a bit of roast from pale chocolate as well. I think you might be headed to sweet porter territory here.

 

[jeeppilot]

@jeeppilot I can't say exactly what your recipe will be like, but it sure looks interesting with several characterful specialty malts in low percentages. Give it a shot!

Thanks McKnuckle! It'll should be a fun beer regardless.

This is pretty much self explanatory.

I have in fact used MO with Carabrown before, in quite a few versions of browns before we settled on the current version.

If you think that MO has no flavor difference than plain two row then boy that’s a conversation I’d love to see you start here as a separate thread.
If you actually read my responses you’ll see where I clearly state I’m not saying MO is sweet per se, but it has a tendency to accentuate sweetness in my opinion, especially when used with lactose, dark crystals and us04. And more to the point here, I think it will be the pronounced flavor here over the brown at only 10%.
Based on experience.

I appreciate your opinions and experience here. I agree that MO isn't sweet on its own, but I don't have enough experience to agree or disagree with your thoughts. So I'm going to make it with MO this time and next go I'll try 2-row and just see what I can see!

Carabrown is more common in some porters, as I do detect a roasty note. Also, I get quite a bit of roast from pale chocolate as well. I think you might be headed to sweet porter territory here.

I dialed back the pale chocolate a tad, though my initial thought was it might help balance the sweetness a tad as I don't want this hoppy. I"ll report back, if I still have my sanity when this beer is ready!

 

[SanPancho]

But that's not what I said at all. I simply said that it's not inherently sweet. It's just a base malt with character, capable of making an endless variety of beer styles from dry to sweet, bitter to mild, etc. etc.

Lactose, dark crystal, and low attenuating SO4 are more direct contributors to sweet characteristics, not the choice of base malt. Those elements combined with any base malt will go to the same general place.

But it's just my opinion and experience vs. yours, nobody wins, it's just conversation.

there's not any "winning" to be had here. but im failing to see why there's debate when you say things that agree with what i've already said. its confusing.

the only thing i can surmise that we differ on is that i think a beer with s04, lactose, and c120 will have more perceived sweetness with MO as the base vs the same beer using a base of plain two row. thats an opinion on MO, but not an "aversion" to it.


in any case, OP is gonna brew what he's gonna brew. the issue at the outset was too much sweetness- cuz residual/nonfermentable sweetness in beer is like salt in your food. its good, right up until its bad. fine line there, once you cross it you cant go back. hence the words of caution.