Brown Ale advice

[ejf063]

So I am planning a brown ale, a style that I have never made before but have recently consumed. They were very flavorful and complex. I am looking for sweet chocolate notes with some complexity. I like the idea of having a nutty flavor too, and smooth mouthfeel. I have developed the following recipe. The problem is, I have not used a lot of these malts and I am not sure how they will play together. I have a couple concerns, which I will keep to myself until I start getting feedback either confirming or diminishing my anxiety. Here is the recipe:

37.2 % Maris Otter
26.0 % Pearl
11.2% Crystal 70L
9.7 % Victory
3.7 % Brown Malt
3.7 % Chocolate 350L
8.3 % Flaked Oats

I will bitter to about 27IBU using Willamette (60 mins) and EKG (15 mins); London Ale 1028.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Each malt will contribute something towards the end result. You said you were looking for sweet chocolate notes, some complexity, nutty, and smooth mouthfeel. Can you explain what each of the malts provides to get to that end result?

FWIW, I would start with just a single base malt (either Maris Otter or Pearl), reduce the Crystal 70 (English Medium Crystal?), and drop the brown malt. If I needed some additional color, I would add some debittered black malt.

 

[ejf063]

Each malt will contribute something towards the end result. You said you were looking for sweet chocolate notes, some complexity, nutty, and smooth mouthfeel. Can you explain what each of the malts provides to get to that end result

Well Maris otter is used for a nutty and sweeter taste, whereas the Pearl is used ... really just because I want to try it. I don't want the whole base to be Maris;

The crystal 70 is a British variety that tends to be more enhanced than the American counterpart. My HBS only has the 70. I was hoping for 80, but I'd rather go down in lovibond than up;

The Brown is supposed to be a nutty flavor while the chocolate is supposed to add a bitter chocolate taste. I just don't know how much taste of chocolate i would get at 3.7%. This is why I made the crystal addition high. I wanted the sweetness from the crystal to play off the bitterness of the chocolate;

victory, because its supposed to play well in browns. Nutty, bread and biscuit flavors and aroma, seemed like a good idea;

Flaked oats to smooth out the mouth.

I do have reasons as to why i selected the malts I did, but i just don't know if the percentages are too low or high, or if my assumption on how they will interact with each other is correct. I believe simpler is better in grist development. This, obviously, is outside of my comfort zone.
Thanks.....

 

[JimRausch]

You justified your choices well. I think they could work with maybe a few minor adjustments. But, this is YOUR beer and what I (or anyone else) might like in our version doesn't necessarily fit your version. OK, that's off my chest.....now to the suggestions. If you haven't already, get a copy of Ray Daniel's 'Designing Great Beers'. It's really a great book that helps out with recipe creation. Maris Otter and Pearl as base malts- eh, go ahead but I don't think the average drinker can tell the difference. 11.2% crystal 70 is maybe a bit too much and might lead to too much sweetness. I would cut it back to 5%, and add another 4-5% of a c40 or caramunich2. But that's me. The Victory (pretty much the same as biscuit malt), and flaked oats are good choices and amounts. I also think the amount of chocolate malt you have is not too much and won't give you any acridness or bitterness. I use brown malt in my porter, as it's traditional there, but it can lead to the bitterness/acridness that you don't want in a brown. But at 3.7%, you should be OK. I'm also a fan of using a touch of midnight wheat for adding color and no roastiness. Bottom line, I think I would drink, and enjoy your version.

 

[ejf063]

You justified your choices well. I think they could work with maybe a few minor adjustments. But, this is YOUR beer and what I (or anyone else) might like in our version doesn't necessarily fit your version. OK, that's off my chest.....now to the suggestions.

I appreciate that. Yes, I brew for what I think I would like. It tends to transcend to what other people like as well. I am looking for suggestions mostly because I haven't used a majority of these mats ever. The Maris/Pearl is nothing more than me being cute. I agree that i don't think anyone would be able to pick up on the split. However, I did split it just to minimize the Maris.

If you haven't already, get a copy of Ray Daniel's 'Designing Great Beers'. It's really a great book that helps out with recipe creation.

Got it... Agreed....

The Victory (pretty much the same as biscuit malt), and flaked oats are good choices and amounts. I also think the amount of chocolate malt you have is not too much and won't give you any acridness or bitterness. I use brown malt in my porter, as it's traditional there, but it can lead to the bitterness/acridness that you don't want in a brown. But at 3.7%, you should be OK.

So. that's kinda what i was worried about: Too much crystal, and a bitterness that i don't want in a brown. But that's the exact reason why there's so much crystal. I typically shy away from crystal altogether. So with that much, i have to admit i'm nervous. But is it too much to be cloying, or enough the otherwise balance the bitterness of Chocolate and Brown malts? Hence, the reason for the post.

I'm also a fan of using a touch of midnight wheat for adding color and no roastiness. Bottom line, I think I would drink, and enjoy your version.

Thanks....

Man, you're funny. I actually got 3# of Midnight because i plan on fermenting 5 gallons as above, and then do a mini mash with the Wheat and add it to the renaming above wort, and call that a Porter. I want the brown to have just a hint of transparency while the porter, I want black as night.

So you guessed it... The crystal is where I'm hung up. The chocolate and brown, was a concern too, but more towards the not enough..... The Victory seemed like too much but from what I have read, 10% is good. Again, zero experience with most of these malts, and even the styles. I gravitate towards IPAs, Blondes, and toy around with Belgians. Browns...? Nope. Porters...? nope.

Any other advice? Any additions based on the grist and my desired ending result? Subtractions? And again, thanks.....[/QUOTE]

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I do have reasons as to why i selected the malts I did, but i just don't know if the percentages are too low or high, or if my assumption on how they will interact with each other is correct. I believe simpler is better in grist development. This, obviously, is outside of my comfort zone.

Like @JimRausch said, you justified your choices well. He offers some ideas on percentages that I agree with and should be a good starting point.

 

[JimRausch]

I guess all I'd have to add is .... Don't be afraid of chocolate malt. I use it in my browns and my porters in the place of where others might use roasted barley or black patent or whatever black malt you might name. I reserve the black stuff for Stouts. I try to avoid the roastiness in my browns and porters. But, once again, that's just me.......

 

[thehaze]

Regarding Brown malt: I've used Crisp Brown malt in the past in Brown ales up to 10% and did not find it to be out of place. There are some other Brown malts I think, which might be different, but the Crisp one only added subtle biscuit, soft, toasted notes with maybe a hint of coffee, but that's a big maybe, given the fact that one of the recipes had also Chateau Coffee Light malt, which is a 95L roasted malt.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Regarding Brown malt: I've used Crisp Brown malt in the past in Brown ales up to 10% and did not find it to be out of place. There are some other Brown malts I think, which might be different, but the Crisp one only added subtle biscuit, soft, toasted notes with maybe a hint of coffee, but that's a big maybe, given the fact that one of the recipes had also Chateau Coffee Light malt, which is a 95L roasted malt.

Interesting. I know that flavors from crystal malts will vary; and I haven't brewed with Crisp malts. Would you be willing to post a full grain bill for one of your recipes?

 

[thehaze]

78% Maris Otter
7% Brown
6% Cafe Light
3% Crystal 150L
3% Crystal 90L
3% Crystal Rye

Danstar Windsor
0G: 1.067
FG: 1.018 ( 72% AA )
ABV: 6.4%

I mashed low due to Windsor' low attenuation, but still got 72% with a bit of sugar during boil. The beer itself came out a dark brown, like an american Brown actually, but very tasty. Malty, biscuitty, a bit of coffee, toastiness, fairly dry and easy drinking.

 

[applescrap]

I love brown ale, but I guess my definition of it is more from colonial times. This is one of the first brews I made and I think the recipe was from the owner of the lhbs. But he might have got it elsewhere. Apparently almost all beers used to be made with 100 brown malt. Anyways this is a dark flavorful beer. Loving this recipe I wonder how something with 3 to 10 percent would taste. This is near 50 percent.

 

[David SEMich]

As another example from a recent brew that is quite good:
60% 2-row
20% Munich Light
8% Biscuit
8% Brown (Fawcett)
2% Black
2% Crystal 120L

WLP023
OG: 1.057
FG: 1.011
28 IBU

This grist reduces the coffee notes and sweetness. It really brings out the malt.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

Just brewed a brown IPA recipe from Josh Weikert, a very respected homebrewer. He suggested Phoenix hops for a chocolate flavor and he was dead on!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I love brown ale, but I guess my definition of it is more from colonial times. This is one of the first brews I made and I think the recipe was from the owner of the lhbs. But he might have got it elsewhere. Apparently almost all beers used to be made with 100 brown malt. Anyways this is a dark flavorful beer. Loving this recipe I wonder how something with 3 to 10 percent would taste. This is near 50 percent.View attachment 594715

Any chance you could convert the ingredient list into a useful recipe by rotating the picture and including batch size, estimated OG, FG, IBUs, etc, etc ?

 

[applescrap]

No.

Just kidding. This is what I have. Mobile app flips everything. Thats a 5g batch, 1 oz at 60 and one at 10 I think it was. That beer is delectable. Rich, dark, chocolatey brown. I tasted an example with 6 row and it was good too.

 

[applescrap]

I found this on brewers friend, think they are the same.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I’ve used chocolate malt several times and don’t get any chocolate flavor from it at all. If you want chocolate flavor, I really feel like there has to be actual chocolate (powder/nibs). I like the flavor of chocolate malt a lot. It is a well rounded pleasant roasty flavor that is not obtrusive, but just doesn’t taste like chocolate to me.

 

[ejf063]

never heard of Phoenix. Wish I had

 

[ejf063]

I’ve used chocolate malt several times and don’t get any chocolate flavor from it at all. If you want chocolate flavor, I really feel like there has to be actual chocolate (powder/nibs). I like the flavor of chocolate malt a lot. It is a well rounded pleasant roasty flavor that is not obtrusive, but just doesn’t taste like chocolate to me.

Well I am also nervous about the astringency chocolate malt offers. Its one of the reason I went high on the crystal. I hope to balance the two... like bittersweet. Nibs are a consideration that i am really leaning towards, post fermentation. I'm also researching burnt and toasted sugars. I want to add something during fermentation that lends sweetness, but doesnt dry out.

I'm a little miffed... my Wyeast 1028 didn't start. Its been spinning since Thursday. Ill be using 04 instead. Not thrilled about it.

I'll be brewing as is today. Adjuncts will be added during or post fermentation.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Apparently almost all beers used to be made with 100 brown malt.

That was true before the tax rises during the Napoleonic Wars and the invention of the hydrometer, which when combined allowed porter brewers to realise that they got more bang for their buck using mostly pale malt, which was more expensive but gave them a lot more extract. But 18th century brown malt was different to modern brown malt - it was not kilned so hot so retained some enzyme activity and tasted different.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

Well I am also nervous about the astringency chocolate malt offers. Its one of the reason I went high on the crystal. I hope to balance the two... like bittersweet. Nibs are a consideration that i am really leaning towards, post fermentation. I'm also researching burnt and toasted sugars. I want to add something during fermentation that lends sweetness, but doesnt dry out.

I'm a little miffed... my Wyeast 1028 didn't start. Its been spinning since Thursday. Ill be using 04 instead. Not thrilled about it.

I'll be brewing as is today. Adjuncts will be added during or post fermentation.

Just brewed a caramel smoked Porter with 1028. Didn't show any signs of a good starter either but pitched and it was fine.

 

[applescrap]

I’ve used chocolate malt several times and don’t get any chocolate flavor from it at all. If you want chocolate flavor, I really feel like there has to be actual chocolate (powder/nibs). I like the flavor of chocolate malt a lot. It is a well rounded pleasant roasty flavor that is not obtrusive, but just doesn’t taste like chocolate to me.

Oddly enough, I ate a mouthful of chocolate malt a few weeks ago tasting grain at the lhbs. Was pleasant for sure. Exactly as you describe it, roasty. The aftertaste is of char and has some biterness to it.

 

[ejf063]

Just brewed a caramel smoked Porter with 1028. Didn't show any signs of a good starter either but pitched and it was fine.

Ya know, I was thinking that 1028 was just a slow starter. But I cold crashed and decanted so i could step it up. I took a gravity reading of the decanted liquid and it was 1.04. sooooo.... I put it back on the plate on Saturday, where its been spinning ever since. There are no signs of fermentation. Ill let it go til maybe Tuesday, take a reading and see what happens.

Its a shame. I have never used 1028 and I was excited to see how it turned out. Instead... I'm using the whitbread strain which scares the crap out of me. Its fermenting low to reduce that wet bread flavor so many have said come with this yeast. Damn.

What did you do to "caramelize" the caramel porter?

 

[TandemTails]

I've stopped using chocolate malt and instead use pale chocolate. It has much less of the harsh/bitter/coffee flavors and ends up lending much more actual chocolate flavor.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

Ya know, I was thinking that 1028 was just a slow starter. But I cold crashed and decanted so i could step it up. I took a gravity reading of the decanted liquid and it was 1.04. sooooo.... I put it back on the plate on Saturday, where its been spinning ever since. There are no signs of fermentation. Ill let it go til maybe Tuesday, take a reading and see what happens.

Its a shame. I have never used 1028 and I was excited to see how it turned out. Instead... I'm using the whitbread strain which scares the crap out of me. Its fermenting low to reduce that wet bread flavor so many have said come with this yeast. Damn.

What did you do to "caramelize" the caramel porter?

Caramel extract from Silver Cloud Estates. 5ml for a 5 gal batch. Won a small club event and got to brew it on a local brewpub system.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

I've stopped using chocolate malt and instead use pale chocolate. It has much less of the harsh/bitter/coffee flavors and ends up lending much more actual chocolate flavor.

Agreed.