British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[KingBrianI]

However, you all need to stop by and have pint!

If I leave now I should be there in time for a breakfast pint!

Nice update. I have secured the 4 yeasts I will use and I think I will brew 2 consecutive batches on each, probably an ESB and an IPA.

I will be using 1187 Ringwood, 1318 London III, 1469 West Yorkshire, and 1968 London ESB.

Nice lineup!

 

[KingBrianI]

Wow, I just opened the smack pack of 1318 to pitch it into the starter, and the smell is really nice. The best I can describe it is like a sweet fruity pebbles kind of smell, but better. I can't wait to use that yeast!

 

[malt_shovel]

Wow, I just opened the smack pack of 1318 to pitch it into the starter, and the smell is really nice. The best I can describe it is like a sweet fruity pebbles kind of smell, but better. I can't wait to use that yeast!

1318 is fast becoming my favorite yeast for english ales. Will be interested to see what you think of it.

Another thread I was involved in regarding Fullers 1845 had a quote from a HBT brewer regarding a fermentation schedule that may serve to reinforce what you have already discovered yourself.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-fullers-1845-a-205873/

I know people who spend all their brewing time devoted to brewing the perfect English Bitter, and in my opinion it is time well spent! Great thread and great info, well done.

Edit: By the way, I give my wort a whiz with my cement mixer attachment at the end of my cordless for a couple of minutes prior to pitching. It gets the same treatment around 12 hours after pitching. My mash water is adjusted to get a Cl/SO4 ratio at or just below 0.5 to enhance bittering. I will be playing with ferment temp schedule some more now, but I am not confident of my palate to pick diacetyl (or reduction of it to be more accurate) to understand when to crash cool.

 

[winvarin]

Did a special/premium bitter today. 1.042 OG and 30 IBU with a 1200-ish ml starter. Today was a good and bad brew day. I didn't boil off enough (I really need to invest in a site glass). But on the other hand, I pulled a few more efficiency points out of my system so I ended up closer to my expected OG than I would have usually, and got another 1/2 gallon or so at the end of the day (within 2 points of my expected OG). WIN!

My big surprise of the day was how quick my WLP002 kicked off. I decanted my 1200 ml starter down to about 800 ml before I started losing yeast and decided to go ahead and pitch. I just checked on it and 3.5 hours after pitching, I have a thin layer of krausen and am already getting some activity from my blow off rig.

The main downside of this beer is going to be my ferment schedule. Nighttime is too cold still to trust my beer to the temp controlled fridge in the garage. So I am using the upstairs bathtub.

It's been staying pretty consistently between 66 and 68 F. Fine for this yeast but I was really hoping to try the cold, warm, cold fement you guys have been talking about on this thread.

I have been a long primary guy and usually let this yeast ride 3-4 weeks or so before bottling/kegging. But I would like to cut cleanup time short and try to preserve some of the character of this yeast.

If my temperature control options are limited to the ambient temperatures listed above, what do you think? 2 weeks at 66-68F then package? Nightime lows for the next 10 days are going to be in the 30s and 40s. I don't feel comfortable putting it in the garage fridge.

 

[KingBrianI]

If my temperature control options are limited to the ambient temperatures listed above, what do you think? 2 weeks at 66-68F then package? Nightime lows for the next 10 days are going to be in the 30s and 40s. I don't feel comfortable putting it in the garage fridge.

Are you bottling or kegging? That would determine what I did. Let it ferment at 66-68 ambient until you hit a steady fg and the flavor tases good to you. It should happen much before 2 weeks. Probably 5-7 days. At that point move it to the fridge in your garage for a cold crash. Leave it there until the 2-week mark then package.

 

[bigljd]

I attempted my first English style brew (ESB) last weekend, and read thru this entire thread before my brew. Lots of good stuff in here! The timing was perfect, since this is also my first brew using a new fermentation fridge I snagged off from Craigs list. I can control ferm temps now
The 5 gal recipe uses Crisp pale malt as the base, and has a little Aromatic, Crystal 120 and a dash of Special roast.
IBUs are around 28 using 1.25oz EKG bittering and .75 oz EKG flavoring.
OG came in at 1.050, just a tad above style.
The yeast I'm using is WLP002 - man is that stuff chunky in the vial. It broke up nicely in my starter with the stir plate spinning it. I pitched at 66, hit it with some oxygen, threw it in the ferm fridge and brought it down to 64. When it started fermenting about 6 - 8 hours later I set the temp controller to 68, and when I got up this morning the better bottle was fermenting so hard I was worried that if my blowoff tube got plugged up the resulting explosion might take out half the neighborhood. Don't think this fermentation will take long.
I plan to drop it back down to 64 once the bubbling slows to a crawl and start tasting it - once it's where I like I'll crash it down to 40 for a few days and keg it.
I'll update in a few days - thanks for the great informative thread!

 

[MattHollingsworth]

FYI, Wyeast 1318 works very well in some American styles as well, in my experience. I recently used it for an American Amber and Black IPA and both came out fantastic. I've found that it brings out something special in the malt, hard to nail down. It doesn't do this at the expense of the hops in the Black IPA, for instance. Also used it in my Krampus Beer (instead of X-Mas beer) a sort of Pacific Northwest style X-Mas beer (meaning not spiced, more like an Imperial Amber/Brown Ale). That and the Black IPA were dry hopped. Worked out great. Not a heavy attenuator, so it leaves some malty sweetness. That American Amber has been brewed a few times with 1056, and the 1318 one is better. Does a better job with the crystal, IMHO.

Quite nice and highly recommended.

 

[winvarin]

Are you bottling or kegging? That would determine what I did. Let it ferment at 66-68 ambient until you hit a steady fg and the flavor tases good to you. It should happen much before 2 weeks. Probably 5-7 days. At that point move it to the fridge in your garage for a cold crash. Leave it there until the 2-week mark then package.

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

 

[Randar]

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

Bitters are BARELY carbed... 0.75 - 1.3 volumes CO2

 

[motobrewer]

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

fyi, this is a huge pita. if it's what you got, roll with it. i'd seriously consider a secondary reg. i've done this a few times, wastes a lot of gas, and again, pita.

also, carb for bitters is very low.

 

[bierhaus15]

Well I just finished another long brew session today, a simple special bitter that used 10% of my homemade no.1 brewers invert syrup and was pitched with some top cropped wy1318 (great to see more people using it!). The beer should turn out pretty good, though it's more of a test batch than anything else. However, we got 18 inches of snow last night, so it wasn't too fun standing outside the apartment in the cold and snow for hours...

And like a moron, I decided yesterday that I would brew on Tuesday too. Made a starter of wy1968 last night so it looks like I'm back out in the cold tomorrow. Still don't know what I'll be brewing - I'm pretty much burned out on bitters, I got 2 fermenting, 3 on tap, and another batch in mini kegs. I'm thinking about either doing a brown ale of sorts or maybe even a robust porter. I have the real recipe for Smuttynose Porter which is superb, though I've never used wy1968 for it. Ah, what to do... suggestions?

 

[ajf]

Bitters are BARELY carbed... 0.75 - 1.3 volumes CO2

Draught bitters are carbed at that level.
For bottled bitters, I carb them up to about 2 volumes.

-a.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm thinking about either doing a brown ale of sorts or maybe even a robust porter. I have the real recipe for Smuttynose Porter which is superb, though I've never used wy1968 for it. Ah, what to do... suggestions?

Compromise between the brown ale and the robust porter and make a brown porter. I have the recipe for Fuller's London Porter if you want it. You've got the right yeast.

 

[bierhaus15]

Compromise between the brown ale and the robust porter and make a brown porter. I have the recipe for Fuller's London Porter if you want it. You've got the right yeast.

I was thinking of that, though I already have one brown porter fermenting and I'm out of brown malt for the fullers. I really shouldn't be brewing, I don't have any more space for all this beer! :cross:

The recipe I've used in the past for fuller's porter was something like UK pale, 10% brown, 8% crystal, and 6% chocolate malt... similar to yours?

 

[KingBrianI]

The recipe I have is a bit different. It's the one from Graham Wheelers BYOBRA and is 12% brown, 10% crystal, 2% chocolate. I've never brewed it but plan on doing something similar at some point.

I'm in the process of trying to figure out what my next beer will be too but it won't be for another 2 weeks. Right now I'm thinking about something along the lines of 100% golden promise but with maybe a touch of a dark malt for a little color. Then I'll caramelize some of the first runnings for a bit more color and some toffee flavors, and bitter it with challenger for some marmalade, then heavily late hop with styrian goldings for that floral spicy aroma and flavor. Something light colored with fresh hoppiness for the warmer weather coming.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've always thought Orfy's mild recipe is just screaming for a more characterful yeast than Notty. That's in the same vein but definitely different. Plus, with warmer weather around the corner, now is the time for a session pint (or 3) on the porch with some friends.

I was also going to suggest an IPA as well, but it looks like someone beat me to it.

 

[bierhaus15]

Holy sh*t, it just occurred to me that this years NHC entries are due no later than 30 March - I totally forgot! I hope I can still enter... That means I have less than three weeks to brew and package an ESB, another dark mild, and finally figure out how to properly force carb bottles from my keg setup. It's almost funny how bad I screwed up the planning of this one! :cross:

Guess we'll really find out how fast I can ferment these beers. At least they'll be fresh for the judges! Tomorrow, ESB it is...

 

[corncob]

I figured I should post results on the bitter I brewed, since I'm drinking it and it will be gone soon. My recipe is still not quite where I want it, but the beer is one of the best I've ever made and the closest I've come to the taste I am after.

I mashed at 149, used the Fullers yeast (1.5 qt starter), and got 67% attenuation. I pitched at 64, let it go to 68, went back down to 64 after 2 days (the yeast kept right on chugging), then crashed to 35 on day 6, after 2 days of no gravity change.

I detect no "green" flavors now, and no diacetyl--I even did the test. BUT, I can only say I've ever detected a buttery or oily taste in beer a few times (esp. in young homebrew or old English imports), so I might not be able to tell well enough. Also this is the first beer I've ever cold crashed, and the youngest I've ever had taste "ready."

The taste is certainly malty, and fruity as heck. It's delicious. But I didn't duplicate the taste I have been after. I got closer for sure, but I think the taste I am after is the taste of a 4-month-old English beer, not a 4-week-old one. If my brewing ever gets ahead of my drinking, I am going to split a batch of bitter and hang on to half for 4 months to test the theory.

All said and done, I think keeping the tail-end of fermentation cool (but not decreasing temp at the bitter end) and taking frequent samples allows you to put the brakes on the ester cleanup when you want, without putting the yeast to sleep prematurely. AND there is a definite connection between the English "deep malty" we all are after and retaining some of the esters that the yeast tend to mop up during the week(s) after primary fermentation has ceased. Who knows about diacetyl?? I may not be sensitive enough to it to comment intelligently.

I am a convert. All my future English beers will finish fermentation at a relatively cool temp, and will be crashed (maybe not so low) as soon as the oily-ness fades from a gravity sample.

 

[motobrewer]

I've always thought Orfy's mild recipe is just screaming for a more characterful yeast than Notty. That's in the same vein but definitely different. Plus, with warmer weather around the corner, now is the time for a session pint (or 3) on the porch with some friends.

i agree, what are you thinking tho? thames vally?

 

[KingBrianI]

The taste is certainly malty, and fruity as heck. It's delicious. But I didn't duplicate the taste I have been after. I got closer for sure, but I think the taste I am after is the taste of a 4-month-old English beer, not a 4-week-old one. If my brewing ever gets ahead of my drinking, I am going to split a batch of bitter and hang on to half for 4 months to test the theory.

It's awesome you've gotten closer to your goal. Do you think that instead of a "4-month old" taste you're looking for, it is a pasteurized flavor? It's said the pasteurization process increases the caramel flavors while reducing the hoppiness slightly. You might try bottling a couple bottles from the keg when the carb gets where you want it, then pasteurizing the bottles and seeing if it changes the flavor towards the direction you are aiming for.

 

[AnOldUR]

-wy1318, my new favorite. Superb malt profile with slight sweetness that goes very well with darker cystal malts. I get 70-75% attenuation. Does well in buckets, carboy and top cropping. Krausen sticks around forever. Pitch low, raise temp to 68F for two weeks, d-rest, keg by day 17. Ages well.

. . . Well I hope this helps someone.

Well, this thread convinced me.

After brewing (and enjoying) Orfy's Mild, I want to make another beer in this style. Just placed the order for 1318.

Thanks for all the contributions here.

 

[winvarin]

Draught bitters are carbed at that level.
For bottled bitters, I carb them up to about 2 volumes.

-a.

So .75-1.3 for draught, and close to 2 for bottle. I might try natural conditioning in the keg. I've not done that before but it seems like the best way to get that level of carbonation in the keg with my current gear.

I've never naturally carbonated in the keg before, only force carbed. Do I just add the sugar like I would for regular bottling and put the keg at room temp?

Do I need to hit it with a small amount of pressure just to keep the lid sealed until it carbonates?

And if I am cold crashing before carbonating, I assume I will need to add yeast. I have an 11.5 g packet of US-05. Will that work for carbonating? How much? About half?

I figure if I go that route, I can just let it naturally carb, then drop it in my keezer when it is ready to serve and only apply gas when I want to dispense.

Alternatively, I could just bite the bullet and bottle the old fashioned way

 

[Beernip]

You need to use less corn sugar with natural carbing in a keg vs in bottle. I can't remember the exact amount but I think it is 1.30 oz for 2.0 volumes. Less than an ounce for 1.3 volumes.

 

[Mad_Milo]

Yes, pressurize the keg with CO2 to get a seal. Also, be sure your poppets and lid seal up completely, or you will just be adding a small bit of alcohol.

 

[corncob]

Do you think that instead of a "4-month old" taste you're looking for, it is a pasteurized flavor?

I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll give it a try...for the sake of science!!

 

[ajf]

So .75-1.3 for draught, and close to 2 for bottle. I might try natural conditioning in the keg. I've not done that before but it seems like the best way to get that level of carbonation in the keg with my current gear.

I've never naturally carbonated in the keg before, only force carbed. Do I just add the sugar like I would for regular bottling and put the keg at room temp?

Do I need to hit it with a small amount of pressure just to keep the lid sealed until it carbonates?

And if I am cold crashing before carbonating, I assume I will need to add yeast. I have an 11.5 g packet of US-05. Will that work for carbonating? How much? About half?

I figure if I go that route, I can just let it naturally carb, then drop it in my keezer when it is ready to serve and only apply gas when I want to dispense.

Alternatively, I could just bite the bullet and bottle the old fashioned way

I don't add any priming sugar to my draught beers. I hit the keg with a good blast of CO2 to seal the lid, and then bleed off the pressure. After fermentation there is enough CO2 in the beer for my taste.
None of the English real ales are force carbed either. The kegged beers are pasteurized and force carbed, and they don't taste anything like as good as the draught versions.

-a.

 

[smizak]

Interesting thread.

I was just talking to the LHBS about English ales. He uses 1968 exclusively and cold-crashes at day 3 or 4, he also swears that if you let the yeast go too long, you lose that real English character.

 

[winvarin]

You need to use less corn sugar with natural carbing in a keg vs in bottle. I can't remember the exact amount but I think it is 1.30 oz for 2.0 volumes. Less than an ounce for 1.3 volumes.

So I have decided to bypass kegging this batch and bottle instead. I am not really set up to have one keg running at a separate and lower psi than the rest, so force carbing is out. I have never naturally carbed in the keg and since there are so many other variables at play here (fermentation time, cold crashing, etc.) that I am tinkering with for the first time that I don't want to add another first to this batch.

I am going to shoot for somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0 volumes in the bottle. Fermenting yeast is WLP002

I do have a couple of questions:

1. Cold crashing will be an option at any time. Tonight marks the third full day of fermentation for this batch so I will begin testing this evening. Do I need 2 or more days of consecutive stable gravity before I cold crash, or should I just cold crash after 3 days if I have reached my expected terminal gravity? I did mash this one low (149F)

2. How long should I cold crash once I decide to move it?

3. Will I need a secondary yeast from bottling?

4. If yes to 3, then how much? I have an 11g pack of US05 in my fridge. I am thinking about half. Should I rehydrate?

5. If I use a strain like US05 in bottling, do I run the risk of bottle bombs? My understanding is that WLP002 is a relatively low attenuator, leaving behind residual sweetness. If I add priming sugar and there is still residual sugar left from the 002, do I run the risk of over-carbonating at the very least when using a more attenuative strain like US05? Or does this problem resolve itself by the fact that the amount of sugar is relatively small and yeast activity slows under pressure?

 

[ASantiago]

Cold crashing will be an option at any time. Tonight marks the third full day of fermentation for this batch so I will begin testing this evening. Do I need 2 or more days of consecutive stable gravity before I cold crash, or should I just cold crash after 3 days if I have reached my expected terminal gravity? I did mash this one low (149F)

Wouldn't you rather let it finish out completely? I mean, let it sit in the fermenter for a few more days, let the yeast complete its cycle? 3 days in the fermenter is not even close to being long enough. Unless I'm missing something here...

Will I need a secondary yeast from bottling?

No yeast needs to be added for bottle carbonation. There should be plenty in suspension when you bottle, even after letting the beer sit in the fermenter for a while.

If I use a strain like US05 in bottling, do I run the risk of bottle bombs? My understanding is that WLP002 is a relatively low attenuator, leaving behind residual sweetness. If I add priming sugar and there is still residual sugar left from the 002, do I run the risk of over-carbonating at the very least when using a more attenuative strain like US05? Or does this problem resolve itself by the fact that the amount of sugar is relatively small and yeast activity slows under pressure?

You run the risk of bombs if you bottle too soon, not to mention the flavor of your beer will be severely affected.

Again, maybe I'm missing a key piece of info here...

 

[rjwhite41]

ASantiago, this entire thread is about not allowing the yeast to clean up in order to retain some "authentic" british flavor in bitters. That's why he is going to begin checking after 3 days and crash when the beer ferments out and the flavor is where he likes it. Winvarin, I have not tried this technique so I am not the one to give advice but from reading this thread since it's inception I believe you want a stable gravity and a diacetyl check before cold crashing. There should be enough yeast even after cold crashing but it might take a little longer to carbonate.

 

[ASantiago]

this entire thread is about not allowing the yeast to clean up in order to retain some "authentic" british flavor in bitters.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[GuldTuborg]

i agree, what are you thinking tho? thames vally?

I've never used the Thames Vally strain (I know, shame, shame), but the more I use 1318, the more I become convinced it's a great all purpose strain. If you still have access to the Wyeast Yorkshire strain, that strikes me as being a great option, too. WLP037 seems to be a similar type of strain, and might still be available somewhere (haven't used it, though).

If you try this out, let us know what yeast you use and how it turns out. I think I'll be making this recipe soon, too. I'll probably be using 1318, but I could be convinced to use something different if you get great results with another strain.

 

[motobrewer]

I may do this on april 3rd, either thames valley or 1318. maybe use thames valley II if i can find it then, its coming out 2nd quarter.

i really wanted to do more of a goose island mild winter clone, have you ever had that? its dubbed an "american mild", 5.6% so not really what i'd call a mild, but i really really like that beer. we'll see what i end up doing.

http://www.gooseisland.com/pages/mild_winter/21.php

 

[GuldTuborg]

I have had the Mild Winter, and while it's been a few months since I had it, I do remember liking it. It didn't knock my socks off, but it was a solid, tasty, drinkable beer. I suppose that's what these are about, after all, no? Maybe I'll have to revisit it. I love how GI makes much of its recipes' details available online. That should make it pretty easy to clone.

Do you know what the Wyeast 2nd quarter yeasts will be, then? I haven't seen them advertised yet.

 

[jfr1111]

Thames Valley and London Ale III are very dfferent yeasts. Thames Valley has a more mineral, softly malty and hop forward profile. It's a squeaky clean yeast with minimal esters. 1318 is way maltier, fruitier and sweeter. In my (short) experience, it muddles somewhat the hop aroma and bitterness, but in a good way. I have found it a bit too sweet for bitters, but I guess the answer would be more early addition hops to have that firm bitterness.

1318 is way easier to harvest: top cropping is a breeeze and it clears amazingly well without gelatin (can't say the same for 1275).

 

[motobrewer]

I have had the Mild Winter, and while it's been a few months since I had it, I do remember liking it. It didn't knock my socks off, but it was a solid, tasty, drinkable beer. I suppose that's what these are about, after all, no? Maybe I'll have to revisit it. I love how GI makes much of its recipes' details available online. That should make it pretty easy to clone.

Do you know what the Wyeast 2nd quarter yeasts will be, then? I haven't seen them advertised yet.

no, i only know thames valley II will be there, because I emailed them about it.

 

[AnOldUR]

I love British ales . . .

Looking at the guidelines for the English styles, there’s a numerical overlapping between Mild and Ordinary Bitter. I read the distinguishing difference being malty vs. dry. Orfy’s mild recipe made an excellent beer. Even my wife liked it, but the roasted malts kept it from being a “love it” beer for her. I plan to brew this weekend using his recipe as a base, but will be pushing it into the Ordinary Bitter range. Might be too much crystal for a Bitter, but because of the low gravity, I don’t want it to finish too thin and dry. What do you think?

80% Maris Otter
19% Crystal 55L
1% Pale Chocolate 225L
Wyeast 1318

OG 1.038
FG 1.008
SRM 12-13
IBU 30

 

[KingBrianI]

I wouldn't worry about it being too thin and dry if you reduce the crystal. 19% crystal is a bit high but I don't want to dissuade you from trying it. If it were me, I'd aim for something more like 5-10% crystal. But in such a small beer, even 19% crystal isn't that much weight-wise.

 

[AnOldUR]

19% crystal is a bit high but I don't want to dissuade you from trying it.

That's where the crystal is in the Orfy recipe. For the beers I'm use to brewing that would be over the top, but it worked in the low gravity mild. Now you have me second-guessing the decision to try it here. Might compromise and lower it to around 15%?

 

[KingBrianI]

That's where the crystal is in the Orfy recipe. For the beers I'm use to brewing that would be over the top, but it worked in the low gravity mild. Now you have me second-guessing the decision to try it here. Might compromise and lower it to around 15%?

I think either way, 19% or 15% would turn out well. You can always fine tune it on subsequent brews if you prefer more or less.