British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[GuldTuborg]

I honestly have no idea, but with English yeasts being as flocculent as they are, I wonder of the racking process doesn't restart fermentation to a degree. I think I may fill one or two bottles with no priming sugar, and then see if they drop gravity some after a couple weeks. It won't rule out the infection hypothesis, but it may rule out the simple sugar idea. I may condition some bottles cold (for an extended period) and then some on the warm side, as most people do (and as I usually do). Perhaps the temperature change for bottle conditioning restarts something.

I suppose infection could be ruled out if the gravity only drops a few points, initially, then stabilizes. A bacteria or wild yeast infection would generally result in significant gravity drop over time, no? I guess it's possible, but I have a hard time thinking the yeast makes for that bad/susceptible of an environment.

 

[solavirtus]

Edit: It was 1098 I was thinking of, not 1968. Sorry all.

 

[smizak]

Thinking about how Fullers carries out the fermentation, and how beers were conditioned cool in casks, maybe in some weird way we don't understand the Fullers yeast has adapted and been conditioned to behave this way. I like GuldTuborg's idea about bottling without sugar and seeing what happens.

 

[WoofdogABC]

Does anyone have perspective on whether the experiences on fermentation temp. variation and shorter primary timing relate to all ales commonly brewed in britain as real ale, e.g. scottish maltier styles, milds, ipa's, plus less common styles?

 

[bierhaus15]

Regarding wlp002/1968 and bottle conditioning, I have had a few bottle conditioned batches that did not develop off flavors and become overcarbonated - though I have had over a dozen batches do just that, which makes me think the problem is infection related. Yet, at least in my case, the beers pretty much went from being "perfect" in the bottle to overcarbonated and cidery-tart tasting overnight. One would think a true infection would not impact a beer so quickly? I noticed a pretty large gravity drop in the beer too.

Also, I once asked the head brewer of my local ringwood brewery about carbonating English ales and his response was pretty much that high flocculating, estery yeasts do not carbonate well. He didn't mention anything about off flavors, though did reiterate that most English yeasts produce beer that is intented to be consumed within 2-3 weeks of fermentation - none of this "three weeks primary, three weeks in the bottle" before you can drink it crap. I know a guy that works at a yeast lab, I'll shoot him an email about this problem and see if I can get a worthwhile response. Though I'm glad to hear other people have encountered this problem too...

 

[GuldTuborg]

Fuller's bottle conditions their 1845, which is a fantastic beer, and makes the journey to the US with ease. They clearly must know something of bottle conditioning with their yeast. I'll write to the brewmaster and see what he/she has to say on the matter.

Edit: OK, I've tried several times to use their form to contact the brewmaster, and nothing will go through as I keep getting a "Bad email address" message. Can anyone else use their form successfully?

 

[SwampassJ]

Has anyone tried using dme or saved wort to prime with 1968?

 

[a_potter]

I was just listening to Jamil on an old podcast about yeast washing and he was saying that yeast definately adapts to brewery conditions. He suggests that you aren't even getting the best the yeast has to offer till at least 3 repitches. He says the yeast will adapt to your brewing after. The thing about a brewery like Fuller's or other old breweries like it, they have been repitching for decades with the same strain. I'd be suprised if there was something the didn't know about it.

 

[smizak]

most English yeasts produce beer that is intented to be consumed within 2-3 weeks of fermentation - none of this "three weeks primary, three weeks in the bottle" before you can drink it crap.

Amen.

That keeps popping up from very experienced brewers I've met and read about when discussing English ales.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Amen.

That keeps popping up from very experienced brewers I've met and read about when discussing English ales.

That almost makes me want to give up trying to make low gravity English ales, at least until I've invested in some kegging equipment. Do stronger beers fare better (English barleywines and such)? I suppose I'll find out when I bottle my 11/11/11 old ale, but with the brett addition that may not be the best trial run.

 

[Hex]

Has anyone tried using dme or saved wort to prime with 1968?

I use 3/4 cup dme per 5 gal. batch.

 

[SwampassJ]

I use 3/4 cup dme per 5 gal. batch.

Any luck with 1968 vs using Dextrose and getting the cider flavors?

 

[Hex]

We're going to have to let the judges (KB et all) decide about the taste, I think they're great tasting and 'creamy', but I'm biased.

I stopped using dextrose a while ago, now I only use extra light DME for my English beers (including my IPA's and IIPA's) or home made invert syrup from C&H cane sugar for my Belgians.

 

[greenbirds]

This is an awesome thread. I have read the whole thing and have had many similar findings.

Now I read about the WLP002/WY1968 bottling issues. I have never had success bottling with this strain. I once brewed a 6 gallon batch of brown ale, kegged half and bottled the other half. The kegged beer was superb to the last drop, while the bottles went south after a week or two and never recovered. It was the same symptoms described here; thinned body, off flavors reminiscent of a low grade infection.

Other batches with that strain went straight to bottle and had the same problem.

 

[meschaefer]

I feel like I have just accomplished something major, after reading all 42 pages of this thread over the last week.

I have been trying to brew a good ESB for the last year and half. I have come very close, and kept thinking to myself that it tasted way to clean. ( I had that epiphany after I accidentally pitched 1056) Changing the fermentation temps seems like a good places to start.

Over the weekend I brewed the AHA Big Brew Day IPA (I know I was two weeks late in brewing it but...). It uses 1318 and figured that I would give the fermentation schedule outlined here a try, since it is an English IPA. I will probably due another ESB soon, but I have a few beers to do before I get back to that style.

I couldn't get my pitching temp below 66 degrees, so I pitched at 66 and let it rise to 68. After a little over 48 hours, gravity dropped to 1.021 and I lowered the temp to 64 degrees. The sample I pulled had this really nice malt profile, with a little bit of biscuit and nut thrown in. (The grain bill is 100% Marris Otter) Diaceytal was through the roof. 24 hours later, and gravity dropped another 4 points and is still chugging along. Malt flavor is intact and the diaceytal was still pronounced but more subdued.

I will let it sit a few more days before I take another sample. If I read this right, I will then drop the temp down to 43 degrees. I plan on kegging it at that point, and then conditioning it for two weeks at 50 degrees.

 

[tesilential]

I've been following this thread for a while now (where'd the people who did the experiment go?) and now have a couple British yeasts under my belt.

1275 Thames Valley: used in a brown ale and a SMaSH cascade/Maris otter (sneaked .5oz centennials in for bittering)

1968 Fuller's yeast: used this one in a Fuller's London Porter clone. Tasted SPOT ON after 2 weeks of fermentation, but after a couple weeks in the bottle it seemed thin and less awesome. Uncarbonated it had the Perfect mouthfeel, which to me is huge in the London porter. I hope it comes together more with a few weeks in the bottle.
Fermented at 62-64 for a week, then up to 68*f for a week.

 

[bierhaus15]

I will let it sit a few more days before I take another sample. If I read this right, I will then drop the temp down to 43 degrees. I plan on kegging it at that point, and then conditioning it for two weeks at 50 degrees.

That should be fine. The whole fermentation schedule (64-68-64F, crash cool) is basically a way of controlling yeast esters and dropping the yeast to set the malt profile. It is pretty amazing how quickly the beer is ready to drink with this method, though do remember that age is not really a friend of most English yeast strains. As soon as the beer cleans up, drink it!

1968 Fuller's yeast: used this one in a Fuller's London Porter clone. Tasted SPOT ON after 2 weeks of fermentation, but after a couple weeks in the bottle it seemed thin and less awesome.

Take a look back on the posts about wy1968 and the related problems when bottle carbing with it. I find it is better to keg 1968/wlp002 beer than risk it in the bottle. I am still waiting for a response from the yeast lab I emailed.

 

[RedHouse]

I bottled a Southern English Nut Brown a few weeks ago...used 1968. I was a bit concerned... cause right after I pitched it, I found this thread. But, the couple of bottles I have opened have been just fine.

 

[meschaefer]

That should be fine. The whole fermentation schedule (64-68-64F, crash cool) is basically a way of controlling yeast esters and dropping the yeast to set the malt profile. It is pretty amazing how quickly the beer is ready to drink with this method, though do remember that age is not really a friend of most English yeast strains. As soon as the beer cleans up, drink it!

Drinking it quickly shouldn't be a problem as I kicked both of my taps within the last two days. I don't get to brew as much as i would like to at the moment, so I don't have many things waiting to go on tap.

Based upon what I have read here, I am going to follow the flavor development pretty closely. While I didn't pull a sample last night, fermentation has visibly slowed. Once the flavor profile hits what i am looking for, I will drop the temp then.

 

[ayoungrad]

Just finished reading through this thread.

Thanks for all the ideas, opinions and experiences.

With all the talk of WLP002 and WY1968 off-flavor, does anyone have experience with bottle conditioning after a US04 fermentation? It's my understnading that all three of these strains are similar or the same. And I only bottle condition...

 

[jmo88]

Just finished reading through this thread.

Thanks for all the ideas, opinions and experiences.

With all the talk of WLP002 and WY1968 off-flavor, does anyone have experience with bottle conditioning after a US04 fermentation? It's my understnading that all three of these strains are similar or the same. And I only bottle condition...

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

 

[ayoungrad]

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

Oh. Good to know. Thanks. I haven't used it yet and was considering doing a dry yeast batch coming up. But with that info I'll have to think about it. From earlier posts it sounds like not everyone likes the flavor profile of 1099 and the like.

 

[trigger]

I did a 10 gallon split batch using this "new to me" ferment temp profile.
15 lbs. Simpson's Golden Promise
12 oz. Simpsons's medium crystal
8 oz. Simpson's extra dark crystal
1.25 oz Chinook 60
1 oz Chinook 15
1 oz Mt. Hood 15
1 oz Chinook 5
1 oz Mt. Hood 5

I chilled in the kettle to 62, then drained to two 5 gallon buckets and pitched one with 1 cup of harvested 1469 and the other with 1 cup of harvested 1318. I let them free rise to 68 (took about 2 days). The 1469 was done in 4 days (F.G. of 1.015) and the 1318 took 7 to reach the same F.G. I put them into my chest freezer at 36 as soon as they were at 1.015 ( I guess they may have gone lower, but they tasted perfect at that gravity) until I had kegs ready for them.

They are both rediculously Brittish. I used to love 1469 because it was "more Brittish" than the others I'd tried. After reading this thread I was expecting a change of heart, but having tried them back to back I much prefer the 1469. It is slightly bready, with lots of light fruit and a touch of diacetal. The crystal malts seem to have blended quite nicely in this batch. The 1318 on the other hand has a less complex nose (mostly sweet, flowers) and a thinner body to it. The flavor is more dark fruit, but I can really taste the dark crystal in this one, and it has a tart finish that makes it less fun to drink.

I don't know, maybe I just don't have proper palette for true Brittish beers, but for me the 1469 is the clear winner in this test.

 

[bierhaus15]

The 1318 on the other hand has a less complex nose (mostly sweet, flowers) and a thinner body to it. The flavor is more dark fruit, but I can really taste the dark crystal in this one, and it has a tart finish that makes it less fun to drink.

I never really got much "tartness" from 1318, though I do find I like the flavor better after it's been in the keg for a week or so. It does let the darker crystal malts come through though, and it makes a wonderful mild.

Also, I wish I had saved some 1469 slurry. Brewed with it a lot for a few months and then had a some problems with it refusing to flocculate. Could have been bad yeast, though it is the most "English" of yeast strains out there IMO.

 

[14thstreet]

I wish I had saved some 1469 slurry...it is the most "English" of yeast strains out there IMO.

What qualifies this statement? I'm about to use this strain for the first time on a TTL-esque bitter. I've used only 2 other strains, 1968 and 1882 (Thames Valley II) and feel I haven't used those to push "English" characters out of them. Meaning, 1968 probably has been fermented in the mid to low 60F in two different styles and 1882 was fermented 68F but in "hoppy" eIPAs with gypsum added so any yeast character may be covered up. Again, I respect that without side-by-side comparisons it is difficult for me to come up with yeast-specific contributions.

I enjoy your blog and have just finished bottling up two IPAs with homemade invert sugar (targeted No1 but ended up No2).

 

[bierhaus15]

What qualifies this statement? I'm about to use this strain for the first time on a TTL-esque bitter.

I have found it to produce a lot more complex esters/flavors than most other English strains out there. Lots of stone fruit, slight diacetyl - which I like - and it does let the malt come through nicely. Never did a side-by-side with this yeast, though this yeast has an unique flavor profile.

I'll be making an American IPA with No. 1 invert here in a few weeks. Something along the lines of Ithaca's Flower Power. Should be good.

 

[BioBeing]

I've been reading this, and lots of good info guys. Thanks! I brewed 10 gallons of a best bitter on Saturday and split it into two - Wyeast 1469 in one bucket, and WLP 023 in the other. I'm trying the 64-68-64 fermentation profile too.

I also used Bramling Cross for bittering for the first time (along with some Northern brewer) so I'm interested to see if they add some currant notes too.

ETA - it also had a pound or so of my homemade invert #2. First time for that too.

 

[russbaker]

Supposedly, s-04 is whitbread strain, not 002/1968. I've bottle conditioned with 04 before as many others have without any problems at all.

So s-04, not s-05? I only ask because every other post in this thread regarding alternative bottling yeast to 002 has referred to s-05 I think.

I'm doing a Rye IPA this weekend using 002 and plan to cold crash the 002 out of it as much as possible and supplement with a dry yeast for carbing.

I am using the 64-68-crash schedule, although, Im a little concerned about dry hopping at such cold temps. Any idea whether dry hopping is as effective at lower temps or is there an alternative method to get similar result?

 

[bierhaus15]

Sad to see this thread disappear for a bit, though is anyone else going to be brewing a bitter with this wonderful yeast? Should be around until September, it makes one tasty pint!

Wyeast 1768-PC English Special Bitter Yeast

 

[HOPCousin]

I'll be doing my first bitter and this thread has given me beer for thought. My LHBS had wlp 002 for ESb yeast so thta is what I'll be working with. My cellar temps are 70 and 78. One room i keep closed in the corner for fermenting nad the main room is warmer. It sounds like the 60's mainly where I'll want to stay from what I've read. can probabaly get it closer to 68. is it worth starting there nad then moving into the main room for a day or two to bring the temps up? has anyone worked with this yeast?
My grain bill is
85% MO
6% Victory
6% Carared ( what I had on hand)
3% C120L

 

[bierhaus15]

Cooler temps are better with wlp002/1968 than higher ones. Ideally, you want to pitch cool around 63-64F and slowly let the ferment temp rise up to 68F over the course of a few days before a D-rest and crash cool. A basic tub with some water and frozen water bottles is an easy way to help regulate your temps if you don't have a fermentation chest. I would not want to go much higher than 70F with this yeast for the first three days of fermentation.

 

[Randar]

Finally got around to posting the winning and runner-up recipe and details. I plan to do another side-by-side tasting here soon and will post my updated tasting notes at that time.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/4-...brew-off-winner-runner-up-257082/#post3089291

 

[14thstreet]

Take a look back on the posts about wy1968 and the related problems when bottle carbing with it. I find it is better to keg 1968/wlp002 beer than risk it in the bottle. I am still waiting for a response from the yeast lab I emailed.

Have you heard back or gained any more experience on this matter?

I did a series of 4 IPAs with Wyeast 1882 Thames Valley II and a batch of bitter with Wyeast 1469 and feel both have gone bad in the bottle, when at first tasted great. I attribute some of this to some extra unexpected carbonation after I thought I reached FG. Seems as if these strains need a few more points pushing at the end, despite some of them having sugar in the recipe. I'm not keen on bottle-conditioning anymore with english strains though I can't say I've brewed enough with 1968/002 to remember if I had the same problems.

 

[jmo88]

Back in May I emailed wyeast and got a response from Jess. While she was really fast and helpful, it's about the response I expected. Certainly a experiment like she suggested is in order, and until then we can only speculate about the infection and corn sugar effects. I'd like to know too if Bierhaus got any other info. Here it is:

"Has anyone tried a couple test bottles w/o priming the bottles? I'm curious if terminal gravity is not being reached in the primary due to the high flocculating characteristics of 1968. The bottling process obviously will rouse yeast and possibly add a slight amount of O2. This would allow the yeast to further ferment any fermentable sugars left in the beer.

Basically, I wonder if you are getting a false terminal gravity reading. When you keg it, it gets immediately cooled and force carbonated, which would inhibit any further fermentation in the keg, vs the treatment of bottles that are stored for another week or two at fermentation temp.

I think you can rule out the infection theory, as if there was an infection, you should be able to note some off flavors or aromas other than over-attenuation/dryness."

 

[bierhaus15]

Have you heard back or gained any more experience on this matter?

I did a series of 4 IPAs with Wyeast 1882 Thames Valley II and a batch of bitter with Wyeast 1469 and feel both have gone bad in the bottle, when at first tasted great. I attribute some of this to some extra unexpected carbonation after I thought I reached FG. Seems as if these strains need a few more points pushing at the end, despite some of them having sugar in the recipe. I'm not keen on bottle-conditioning anymore with english strains though I can't say I've brewed enough with 1968/002 to remember if I had the same problems.

Got one response back... they didn't answer my specific questions and reiterated what I already knew: Basically, some yeasts are prone to infection and highly flocculating yeasts can have issues with bottle conditioning. With that said, I think the problem(s) of over carbonation and off flavors in the bottle is due to some type of minor infection. At first I suspected the yeast were 'reactivating' with a sugar addition and causing the beer to over carbonate. However, if this was so, I don't think it would result in such a noticeable change in flavor. I've had a few of batches of Belgian beer over carbonate a bit too much - due to bottling too soon (saison) - though the resulting flavor profile was always fine.

Until I learn what the real problem is, I'll stick to kegging my English style beers. I have not had any problems since I started kegging and honestly, I think the beer stays fresher in the keg than the bottle. Lastly, I do have a half sized firkin/cask that I use on occasion and I have not had problems with that either, even when adding priming sugar. Sorry to hear about your beer going bad... it's always a bummer when that happens!

Edit: Thanks for emailing Wyeast, jmo88 - it is basically the same response I got from the UK yeast lab I emailed. Moving forward, I think the first thing we should determine is what type of problem are people experiencing with these English yeasts and bottling - over carbonation with no off flavors, or over carbonation and off flavors.

 

[rockfish42]

I'm not really buying the infection idea, I've bottled repeatedly with wlp002 but the bottles conditioned at ~60 degrees and retained their ester profile. Sadly now that I don't live 200 feet from the Pacific Ocean in a fog bank I don't think I'll be bottling my english beers.

 

[loctones]

I've found this thread very interesting, so I thought I would try a similar process. The last cask ale I had in England was almost 10 years ago, now, so I probably can't say how accurate my results are. It'll still be a fun experiment.

On Sunday, I brewed a bitter using Bob's 80/10/10 rule of thumb:
80% Crisp MO
10% Turbinado
6% Crisp C45
4% Great Western C120
49g EKG @ 60
28g EKG @ 1
1L starter of 1318

Mashed at 152 for 60 min and pitched yeast at 62. I raised the temperature to 68 over 10 hours and held it there. Tonight I measured the gravity and found the gravity at 1.020. I intended to follow the Fullers fermentation profile and drop the temperature back to 64 halfway to the final gravity, but I missed it. So, the temperature is at 64 now, and I'm going to check it again tomorrow night and drop the temperature to 43 if it's beyond 4/5 of the expected attenuation.

The gravity sample tasted nice, so I'm excited about how this will turn out. I'll report back when the first beers have been poured.

 

[rjwhite41]

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that so many people look at how one brewer uses their house yeast and thinks it will work with all yeasts for a certain style. Wouldn't the better route be to grab one yeast, figure out what you want from it and figure out how to get it through experimentation on your system. I'm not saying the system is wrong but I highly doubt it is universal across all systems with a variety of yeasts. Just my 2 cents. Great info in this thread though, thanks!

 

[jmo88]

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that so many people look at how one brewer uses their house yeast and thinks it will work with all yeasts for a certain style. Wouldn't the better route be to grab one yeast, figure out what you want from it and figure out how to get it through experimentation on your system. I'm not saying the system is wrong but I highly doubt it is universal across all systems with a variety of yeasts. Just my 2 cents. Great info in this thread though, thanks!

Yeah, it's weird when you put it that way. But you said it yourself, you should look at a yeast and figure out what you want from it. I think the key is that dropping the temp preserves characters that would otherwise clean up. If I am making an English ale, regardless of strain, I want to retain that English yeast character. The reason Fuller's fermentation profile is being sought after is because of the obvious English yeast character in their beers. Many homebrewed beers lack this character with English yeast strains because they clean up too much. Their fermentation regimen is a good place to start, even with other strains.

If anything, this fermentation technique has encouraged homebrewers to be comfortable with dropping their temp before fermentation is finished. Before this knowledge, I think many homebrewers would have been dissuaded by people on this board or even people like Jamil to drop their fermentation temps before terminal gravity instead of stable temps or upward rising temps.

 

[ayoungrad]

It has been a little while since I read through this whole thread, so please excuse me if this has already been addressed repeatedly.

But if the idea is to follow a regimen of cold crashing before reaching FG, does this regimen imply that you cannot bottle carbonate the beer? My first thought is that I would be concerned about bottle bombs if I bottle before FG is reached and then add priming sugar.