Breweries and water sources - discuss

[TravelingLight]

There's a discussion going on on another forum I'm a member of (sports). It's local to my state (South Carolina). There's a discussion going on about breweries in the south. Particularly some were talking about why Asheville, NC is such a popular spot to setup shop. And someone said that one of the reasons so many west coast shops are setting up locations in Asheville is because of the soft clean water supply from the mountains and how they don't have to do too much to the water and that's a big draw for them.

Further, people were saying how because of reasons like this, Charleston, SC, will never be the brewer's destination like Asheville is, because of the water supply in the lowcountry. This was stated despite the fact that Charleston is growing quickly in terms of breweries, and they're putting out some great beer.

To my point, I don't buy this completely. What I mean is, IMO, the water source in Asheville is a nice added bonus for breweries, but it's not the main draw. Furthermore, the lower quality water in Charleston is not what would keep breweries from popping up there. In fact, in Charleston, it probably has more to do with the exorbitant property taxes and cost of living in Charleston.

Ultimately, don't most, if not all, breweries have RO systems for their water anyway? I was also under the understanding that it's easier to add to water and build it up than it is to remove salts and other crap you don't want. Ergo, if breweries have an RO system, aren't they getting plain pure water anyway?

 

[wdprice3]

It's a minor or moderate consideration, but not a primary draw, I would say. The only breweries I've heard making water source a primary locating factor are those looking to replicate historical beers and trying to match the water profiles used in the past. And all of those I've heard of have been in Europe.

 

[mongoose33]

I think you also have to consider the markets--if you want to market your beer in Charleston, and you're brewing it in Asheville, you have a 268-mile one-way trip to get it there. If you brew in Charleston for that market, you have few transportation costs to get it there.

I lived in Greenville NC for a while, and our water was soft and good. It depends on where Charleston is drawing water; Greenville's was drawn from ground water and the soil is sandy, so it was more or less filtered rainwater.

I think there are a lot of factors that go into it.

 

[wyowolf]

Just went to Red Hare here in Atlanta, they said they dont treat their water at all other than filters. I was a bit surprised at that...

 

[TravelingLight]

Just went to Red Hare here in Atlanta, they said they dont treat their water at all other than filters. I was a bit surprised at that...

That is surprising. I'd be curious what their water supply was like.

 

[Mainer]

I've heard that my town (Portland, Maine) has exceptionally good city water for brewing, leading in part to the explosion of great microbreweries here. By my last count, there are at least 15 in a city of 60,000, and another 5-10 in bordering towns. The city makes the annual water quality report available to the public (actual tables start on page 7) but I don't really know what I'm looking for in it. Can somebody direct me to a good beginner-level resource for reading a water quality report for brewing?

 

[wyowolf]

That is surprising. I'd be curious what their water supply was like.

I specifically asked him and he showed me, they just had a couple big filters... he said the water was surprisingly good in Marietta. I assume charcoal?

 

[ajdelange]

There is a forum here called Brewing Science. It should be called Brewing Water because that is what the majority of the traffic is about.

As for suitable water for brewing the answer today is pretty simple. The lower the mineral content and the less variable the supply is the better it is. The days when a brewery makes only dark beer or only light lagers are long gone. There are still a few breweries that adhere to the terroir school (the local water is to the brewer as the available land is to a grape grower) but they are few and far between. Most brewers will have to do some sort of water treatment for some of their beers. As putting stuff in is much easier than taking stuff out, the lower the mineral content of the mains water the better. Alkalinity under 50 (under 25 better still) and similar levels of hardness definitely make the brewers life easier. Above those levels he does need to start thinking about RO and while many commercial operations do use it there are capital and operating expenses plus the problem of concentrate disposal to worry about.

 

[mongoose33]

I've heard that my town (Portland, Maine) has exceptionally good city water for brewing, leading in part to the explosion of great microbreweries here. By my last count, there are at least 15 in a city of 60,000, and another 5-10 in bordering towns. The city makes the annual water quality report available to the public (actual tables start on page 7) but I don't really know what I'm looking for in it. Can somebody direct me to a good beginner-level resource for reading a water quality report for brewing?

Look in the "Brewing Science" forum here--that's where much of the water discussion is done.

Looking at your water report and comparing it to mine, your water is almost approaching Reverse Osmosis water. In other words, not a lot of stuff that need to be done to remove or correct undesirable elements. Easy to add whatever one needs to get the water to where it needs to be.

My water is very hard, and suitable as is only for brewing things like Stouts. I ended up getting an RO system to solve that, but I'd love to have your water. When I get my strike water ready I've been making it 1 part local water to 3.5 parts RO water. Then I amend however is necessary based on a water calculator.

 

[ColoHox]

I know that Oskar Blues spent a significant amount of time trying to match the water at their new plant in Brevard, NC with what they have been using here in CO.

 

[Mainer]

Look in the "Brewing Science" forum here--that's where much of the water discussion is done.

Looking at your water report and comparing it to mine, your water is almost approaching Reverse Osmosis water. In other words, not a lot of stuff that need to be done to remove or correct undesirable elements. Easy to add whatever one needs to get the water to where it needs to be.

My water is very hard, and suitable as is only for brewing things like Stouts. I ended up getting an RO system to solve that, but I'd love to have your water. When I get my strike water ready I've been making it 1 part local water to 3.5 parts RO water. Then I amend however is necessary based on a water calculator.

Thanks. I cross-posted in the Brew Science forum.

 

[Spartan1979]

Ultimately, don't most, if not all, breweries have RO systems for their water anyway?

I don't think most breweries have RO systems, but I don't have any evidence to support that answer. I only know of one that does and they mix the RO water with their regular water supply to get it where they want.

 

[TravelingLight]

I don't think most breweries have RO systems, but I don't have any evidence to support that answer. I only know of one that does and they mix the RO water with their regular water supply to get it where they want.

No, you're correct. I was absolutely wrong about that.

 

[ViciousFishes]

I'm in NC and love Asheville and Charleston. Separately, and for different reasons. Indulge me while I wave my hands. Asheville is chock full of college students and hipsters (of all ages). Sometimes one and the same and sometimes not.

Charleston has some of that demographic. But it's a hotbed for culture & beach-seeking Gen-Xers and affluent Baby Boomers. If I were a 20-30-something brewer, I'd lean towards Asheville. And if I were a more seasoned brewer focused on distribution in the mid-Atlantic and the South, either location would suffice. But, in that case, perhaps Charleston has a more firm footing to the latter brewer than the former.

YMMV. I write this at the bar at Carolina Brewery in Pittsboro, NC, which appeals to neither

 

[MaryB]

Schells Brewery in New Ulm MN uses an artesian spring that smells like sulfer. At the time they made only 2-3 beers and all were low on my drinkable list.

My water report is great except for 405mg/l sulfate... so I am going to have to go the RO route to brew a variety of beers. Or have water delivered... not many beer styles that that much sulfate will work with...

 

[TravelingLight]

I'm in NC and love Asheville and Charleston. Separately, and for different reasons. Indulge me while I wave my hands. Asheville is chock full of college students and hipsters (of all ages). Sometimes one and the same and sometimes not.

Charleston has some of that demographic. But it's a hotbed for culture & beach-seeking Gen-Xers and affluent Baby Boomers. If I were a 20-30-something brewer, I'd lean towards Asheville. And if I were a more seasoned brewer focused on distribution in the mid-Atlantic and the South, either location would suffice. But, in that case, perhaps Charleston has a more firm footing to the latter brewer than the former.

YMMV. I write this at the bar at Carolina Brewery in Pittsboro, NC, which appeals to neither

I agree with this. My biggest draw, personally, for Asheville, is without question Wicked Weed's Funkatorium. I absolutely do not go to Asheville without a stop at the Funkatorium. If I lived in Asheville or had something similar to Funka in my town in SC, I would be there at least once a week.

 

[Natdavis777]

There is a forum here called Brewing Science. It should be called Brewing Water because that is what the majority of the traffic is about.

As for suitable water for brewing the answer today is pretty simple. The lower the mineral content and the less variable the supply is the better it is. The days when a brewery makes only dark beer or only light lagers are long gone. There are still a few breweries that adhere to the terroir school (the local water is to the brewer as the available land is to a grape grower) but they are few and far between. Most brewers will have to do some sort of water treatment for some of their beers. As putting stuff in is much easier than taking stuff out, the lower the mineral content of the mains water the better. Alkalinity under 50 (under 25 better still) and similar levels of hardness definitely make the brewers life easier. Above those levels he does need to start thinking about RO and while many commercial operations do use it there are capital and operating expenses plus the problem of concentrate disposal to worry about.

Seeing how you would be best to address my question... My buddy whom is a successful brewer uses local water (at least at his old brewery) and boiled then treated his brewing water with phosphoric acid before brewing (30bbl system I believe). Our water here is pretty bad. 180s in alkalinity and 250 in hardness I believe. Would these two processes get the water down to a treatable "starter" water able to make a wide arrange of beers? He has won multiple awards and is very knowledgeable, so maybe his process has changed. But I was just curious if this was successful, could it be applicable to the homebrewer.

Or has he switched (at his new owned location) to an RO system...

Thanks ahead for any insight.