Brew Control Panel Help

[doughanson78]

Probably a rehash of other threads but I've searched and read to no avail but to confuse myself.
I have brewed for years and want to go to electric. I will buy a 240v 5500W element kit from Kal at the electric brewery. Although the control panel they sell is completely out of my price range.
I want a straightforward DIY build that assumes I'm a complete noob. 1 element, 2 pumps.
I am willing to buy an already built one like this if needed http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/Wort-Hog-EBC-130-Electric-Brewery-Controller-272p5041.htm. Just not sure what the difference in functionality is compared to Kal's panel. If that could be explained and/or links to other builds similar to what I am looking for could be posted I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance. Cheers!

 

[Bensiff]

I'd hold off on buying anything until you get your build figured out. I would highly, highly recommend you build with two elements. I would also highly recommend you build a 50 amp panel.

That high gravity brew uses Auber's power controller instead of PIDs like Kal's. It also comes standard with one pump and one element where Kal's comes with two of each. I won't go too much more into it as Kal is active here and could much better explain the differences than I.

 

[jddevinn]

Lots of difference in functionality.

If you don't have an idea for equipment yet read all of Kal's site and some of the threads there, get an idea how everything in the system works, and then decide if you want to cut anything out.

 

[doughanson78]

Bensiff - I am fine with using propane to heat my strike water and sparge water for now and the near future. What is the difference between aubers power controller and a PID? I don't have the service for a 50A panel at this time so really will only be doing single element.

jddevinn - I have read Kal's site a few times. I have a good idea how it all works. Am willing to build my own control panel if needed and it's straight forward. I've found a couple I'm interested in. I guess I'm wondering what exactly a PID does. I do like the idea of the potentiometer (sp?) on the High Gravity controller.

Any good links to read on other builds similar to mine would be appreciated.

 

[jddevinn]

A PID is a proportional intagral derivative controller. Basically it "learns" the system and uses fancy math to hit and maintain the target temp without overshooting. Useful for the hlt. The PID is used in a manual % fire mode for the bk.

There is a lot here if you look. Individual electrical components are not that expensive. You can save a good amount of $ by removing all the electrical connects and hard wiring, but you lose redundantcy. The 3 vessel design is very versatile if you want to do some experimentation.

 

[doughanson78]

So if I'm not going to be doing RIMS or HERMS and only having boil kettle heating element do I really need a PID?

Care to post a link or two to some good threads to read?

Thank you.

 

[Dfitz]

So if I'm not going to be doing RIMS or HERMS and only having boil kettle heating element do I really need a PID?

Care to post a link or two to some good threads to read?

Thank you.

As stated, a PID is really helpful to control HLT temps but no you really don't need a PID for your boil kettle. I built a controller based on Kal's design with a few added features but to control your boil your well suited using Aubers DSPR1
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=444

Also you could consider using the EZ Boil
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=560

 

[dilligafbrewing]

+1 for ezboil. I built my panel last week. Used a 12x12 home depot junction box ($35) and some 2 position no-nc switches, some terminal block and a DC transformer for my DC pump. Works like a charm.

 

[doughanson78]

I like that EzBoil. Sounds like what I would want/need.

dilligafbrewing - do you have a schematic you used to build yours? I have 2 chugger pumps that I would need to hook up also.

 

[dilligafbrewing]

Tell me what all you plan on putting in the box and I can draw you up a simple diagram.

 

[doughanson78]

The more I read the more confused I get. Lol
I like the simplicity of the ezboil but everything I read says to use a PID. I don't like that you have to have a temp probe hooked to the PID or else it throws an error.
Barring that decision, I definitely want two 120V plug-ins for both my pumps with on off switches, if going PID I've read that controlling the boil % is hard by using the buttons, and that's the feature I like about the easy boil, the knob to control % of power. If I can use a PID with a potentiometer that would be ideal.
Wouldn't mind a shut down button. Obviously I need an SSR. If I'm going PID need a temp probe right?

 

[dilligafbrewing]

PID just means proportional-integral-derivitive controller, it's an algorithm used to learn how the wort reacts to being heated to avoid overshooting temps. The ezboil will suit your needs, I use one and it's great. Yes you will need a probe. I also recommend a 50 amp gfci breaker to run this whole circuit and at least a 4k watt 240 volt element.

 

[doughanson78]

50A? For a 5500W 240 V element on the electric brewery, Kal says to use a 30A breaker.
And I'll need a probe with the ezboil? Or just with the PID?

 

[dilligafbrewing]

50 amp allows for expansion. You can run a 5500 and a few pumps and controller on 30, I am. You will need a probe with any closed loop feedback controller. I like the ezboil because it is programmed for brewing. You have mash mode and boil mode, just set the timers and temps and brew. For $46 it does everything I need for BIAB.

Whatever amperage breaker you install in your panel, just make sure it's gcfi. Or you can use a spa sub panel.

 

[dilligafbrewing]

To give you an idea, this is my panel. I have yet to run conduit for some things but it's functional. The little box is a square D bi pole 30 Amp on/off switch for main power (so I don't have to shut off the breaker). Inside is terminal block, my SSR and a DC transformer to run my pump. Mounted in the cover are 3 lit-when-on 2 position switches and my ezboil. Once it arrives I will also mount a pilot lamp to indicate main power on or off.

All in all a pretty simple build. Wires look messy because I haven't tie wrapped them yet as I still need to open it up to install conduit nuts etc.

View attachment 1477440821567.jpg

View attachment 1477440839094.jpg

 

[doughanson78]

That does look fairly simple. You have a DC pump? Do you not have a heatsink for the SSR? I thought they needed them.

Appreciate the help.

 

[dilligafbrewing]

Yeah, bought a cheapie 2 gpm DC pump off eBay for like $15. Had the transformer laying around from another project. SSR is on heat sink. Sink is screwed to back of box, SSR is screwed to heat sink with some thermal paste between them. Temp inside panel was only 82°f after an hour boil so I didn't bother mounting a fan. You can also slot the enclosure and mount your heat sink externally.

There's lots of extra wiring on the switches because they illuminate when on, so needed to run a common to one and Daisy chain it to the rest, then run the switched side of the hot leg into the illumination circuit of the switch.

 

[doug293cz]

The more I read the more confused I get. Lol
I like the simplicity of the ezboil but everything I read says to use a PID. I don't like that you have to have a temp probe hooked to the PID or else it throws an error.
Barring that decision, I definitely want two 120V plug-ins for both my pumps with on off switches, if going PID I've read that controlling the boil % is hard by using the buttons, and that's the feature I like about the easy boil, the knob to control % of power. If I can use a PID with a potentiometer that would be ideal.
Wouldn't mind a shut down button. Obviously I need an SSR. If I'm going PID need a temp probe right?

The EZboil has a control function that does the same thing as a PID (maintain the temp at a specific set point), but uses a different control algorithm than a PID. The EZboil algorithm works better for most homebrewers than the PID algorithm (more stable, less overshoot, easier to set up.) In addition the EZboil has the linear, knob operated, boil power control which works better than the manual mode available on PID's.

I question your plan to brew with a mix of both electric and propane, just doesn't make sense to me as you still have all the disadvantages of propane. Have you considered electric BIAB? You only need one pot (and one element) and one pump, and a 30A service is all you will ever need. The only drawback to BIAB is that it is not as convenient for back to back brews as a 3 vessel system.

Brew on

 

[Bensiff]

The more I read the more confused I get. Lol
I like the simplicity of the ezboil but everything I read says to use a PID. I don't like that you have to have a temp probe hooked to the PID or else it throws an error.
Barring that decision, I definitely want two 120V plug-ins for both my pumps with on off switches, if going PID I've read that controlling the boil % is hard by using the buttons, and that's the feature I like about the easy boil, the knob to control % of power. If I can use a PID with a potentiometer that would be ideal.
Wouldn't mind a shut down button. Obviously I need an SSR. If I'm going PID need a temp probe right?

You don't have to have a PID, the EZboil will work just fine. I wouldn't use either without a temp probe.

If all you want is a variable power controller I'd go buy it from Stilldragon as that is about as basic and cheap as you can get, a SSVR with a pot. That will work fine for the boil but you really want the temp set point for your mash control. Id say without the temp probe you are doing the electrical equivalent of playing with your burner output hoping you don't overshoot.

I have zero issue with percentage control on my Auber PID, hit manual, adjust percentage...easy. My EZboil is about the same, switch to boil mode and turn dial to percentage of power desired. PID push button, EZ turn knob, there's your difference.

But I see your ideal is the SSVR and a pot, so go buy the stilldragon and we will be here to help when you realize you really want mash temp control more than anything. A little sarcasm yes as I think that path is a big mistake. But we learn by doing and I'll happily help if you go the basic route and start thinking we who have gone down this path may have been right. Had I listened when I started I'd not be switching my 30 amp panel over to a 50.

 

[doughanson78]

The EZboil has a control function that does the same thing as a PID (maintain the temp at a specific set point), but uses a different control algorithm than a PID. The EZboil algorithm works better for most homebrewers than the PID algorithm (more stable, less overshoot, easier to set up.) In addition the EZboil has the linear, knob operated, boil power control which works better than the manual mode available on PID's.

I question your plan to brew with a mix of both electric and propane, just doesn't make sense to me as you still have all the disadvantages of propane. Have you considered electric BIAB? You only need one pot (and one element) and one pump, and a 30A service is all you will ever need. The only drawback to BIAB is that it is not as convenient for back to back brews as a 3 vessel system.

Brew on

Definitely going with the EzBoil from what you all are saying. Thanks for the info.

I already have a three vessel system, all SS Brewtech gear,15 gal HLT, 20 gal mash tun, 20 gal BK, two chugger pumps, and all quick disconnects. So going to BIAB would leave me with a lot of money worth of useless equipment. Lol
At some point I might go to a element in my HLT but heating strike water can be done in the boil kettle with that element and heating sparge water doesn't take much time with propane.

 

[doughanson78]

You don't have to have a PID, the EZboil will work just fine. I wouldn't use either without a temp probe.

If all you want is a variable power controller I'd go buy it from Stilldragon as that is about as basic and cheap as you can get, a SSVR with a pot. That will work fine for the boil but you really want the temp set point for your mash control. Id say without the temp probe you are doing the electrical equivalent of playing with your burner output hoping you don't overshoot.

I have zero issue with percentage control on my Auber PID, hit manual, adjust percentage...easy. My EZboil is about the same, switch to boil mode and turn dial to percentage of power desired. PID push button, EZ turn knob, there's your difference.

But I see your ideal is the SSVR and a pot, so go buy the stilldragon and we will be here to help when you realize you really want mash temp control more than anything. A little sarcasm yes as I think that path is a big mistake. But we learn by doing and I'll happily help if you go the basic route and start thinking we who have gone down this path may have been right. Had I listened when I started I'd not be switching my 30 amp panel over to a 50.

I have no problem maintaining my mash temp with the SS Brewtech infussion MT and the temp control heating pad. Usually only lose 1° F at the most over the course of an hour mash.

 

[Bensiff]

I have no problem maintaining my mash temp with the SS Brewtech infussion MT and the temp control heating pad. Usually only lose 1° F at the most over the course of an hour mash.

Then I would go back to what I said, get the Stilldragon kit, buy the components and a larger box than they have. Instead of wiring it like they have setup, run the 10/4 into a contactor and split off for 110V (check out Kal's website for an easy diagram of how to do this). Wire in the two 110V switches for your pumps and wire to the pot and SSVR for the variable power control. Probably can build the box itself for under $150 depending what odds and ends for working electrical you have around. Building/buying power cords, a safe element mount to your kettle, and getting a 30 amp GFCI will probably run you another couple hundred.

 

[doughanson78]

So I have decided to go with the EzBoil from Auberins. (Can't get to stilldragon's site as it keeps telling me that it's compromised or something).
Was looking at this DIY kit http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=55&products_id=620
It doesn't state that it comes with the SSR though.
So far I have these components in my cart...
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...ducts_id=560:533df2274824224becd71810892487e7 (DSPR300)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=30
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...ducts_id=340:2881ef54b64d38f817e5d2ee2e4314ec (Precut w/heatsink and hangers)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=490 (Because why not? And More lights. Lol)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=235 (I assume that Normally Open means "Off" or not a completed circuit) (Does this contain 2 switches?)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=223 (x2 for pumps and x1 for element [is element not need because the switch above will control that?]

I realize I still need sockets and a few other components, but would it be cheaper (or about the same cost)/less hassle to just buy the DIY kit I listed above?

 

[dsletten2001]

So I have decided to go with the EzBoil from Auberins. (Can't get to stilldragon's site as it keeps telling me that it's compromised or something).
Was looking at this DIY kit http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=55&products_id=620
It doesn't state that it comes with the SSR though.
So far I have these components in my cart...
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...ducts_id=560:533df2274824224becd71810892487e7 (DSPR300)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=30
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...ducts_id=340:2881ef54b64d38f817e5d2ee2e4314ec (Precut w/heatsink and hangers)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=490 (Because why not? And More lights. Lol)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=235 (I assume that Normally Open means "Off" or not a completed circuit) (Does this contain 2 switches?)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=223 (x2 for pumps and x1 for element [is element not need because the switch above will control that?]

I realize I still need sockets and a few other components, but would it be cheaper (or about the same cost)/less hassle to just buy the DIY kit I listed above?

What did you decide? I am in the same boat right now. I can build one cheaper without all the interlocks but also like the idea I don't have to think or reinvent the wheel.

 

[augiedoggy]

This meter is a lot more functional for less... It's made by the same people who make the one your looking at on the auberins site..
http://m.ebay.com/itm/162159155798?_mwBanner=1

 

[augiedoggy]

What did you decide? I am in the same boat right now. I can build one cheaper without all the interlocks but also like the idea I don't have to think or reinvent the wheel.

At least your honest with yourself.. If your going this route you can save hundreds (about half the cost or more actually) by not buying everything through one reseller. But it does involve some thinking ... There are build threads which can help. I have some lists of components I used in my $300 control panel in my signature.

 

[doughanson78]

I went with the ezboil. Found a guy on Facebook that's an electrical engineer and has built 5-6 panels himself that is building it for me in exchange for a few beers.