botulism! What are the odds?

CornyKegs 728
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Husher

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Ok, I went with that title to get lots of view.

I brewed an apple wine and racked onto some blueberries I boiled. Had a few sips of one (really good!), while coming across an article on the winemaking talk site about botulism. yeah.

Apparently some guys got botulism after throwing a potato in the fermenter. And it made me a bit paranoid about my current beverage so I dumped that one.

Thing that's making me paranoid is that while I boiled the fruit, I really only just brought it to a boil and then let cool. I didn't boil it for 10 minutes or anything. Plus The berries were frozen when I started, so I'm assuming if frozen berries are added to water from the kettle, which is then brought to a boil in a sauce pan, that there's NO chance the berries were still frozen in the core, or even cold enough to contain dangerous crud. These things were only a quarter inch in diameter.

Ok, let the mockery begin.
 
Don't worry, just wait a few days - if you're dead the wine had botulism, if you're not you a fine to drink the rest :D
 
zero.

I could regurgitate a bunch of info about clostridium botulinim (I think that's it), but you should look into it yourself. Understand the bacteria, the toxin it creates, the conditions that allow the toxin to develop, the conditions that denature the toxin. Then you'll feel a LOT better about your beer. Start with wikipedia.

Do that, then come back here and close out this thread with what you learned. I'm looking forward to it.
 
Consider your post mocked.... but only because you asked me to. :)
 
Boiling temperatures aren't high enough to kill botulism spores, only pressure canning temps get high enough. If you are really paranoid, use the pasteurized fruit purees, you can just dump them in and you know the quality.

The other problem with boiling whole fruit is you denature proteins and end up with pectins and other gummy crap that you don't want.

I've never researched whether acid washes have a benefit for botulism spores, i.e. StarSan, Citric Acid soak, etc.
 
mattd2 said:
Don't worry, just wait a few days - if you're dead the wine had botulism, if you're not you a fine to drink the rest :D
Click to expand...

A few days? if you did die upon looking at it then it dosn't contain botulism.

Just opening a fermenter with a Botulinum infection would probably kill you entire house hold let alone drinking it. The LD50 is 1 ng/kg thats 0.000000002g/kg will kill you 100% of the time.

I think something like a 1Kg bag of sugar of Botulinum toxin itself would kill the population of newyork. Its by far the most toxic pathogen is existence.

OP are you dead? no? then there was no Botulinum.
 
Potatoes have no acid.

Anything you use to make wine is plenty acidic. Apples, grapes, you name it.

That's the difference. Botulism cannot populate anything below pH 4.6. Apple juice is around 3.5-4.0. Grape juice is similar.

If in doubt, get some pH strips and fear no more.
 
The reason "they" say to not feed honey to infants is the risk of it containing clostridium spores. For adults, they don't mature into toxin producing forms, but they can in infants. Adults just need to worry about the produced toxin. Canned foods are the stereotypical source.
Like helibrewer said, the spores are extremely resilient and would not be killed in a simple boil. Regardless, they were in an aerobic environment. Adding the potato in the anaerobic fermenter probably facilitated its growth.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app
 
Clostridium botulinim spores are everywhere. We adults can tolerate them because our digestive tract is an unbelievable killing zone. Remember the last time you barfed? It's nasty in the stomach.

Baby's don't have the low pH and biological killing field that adults have. The botulism bacteria can grow and flourish in their intestines and stomach, and in the anaerobic conditions, create the toxin that is problematic.

I've seen studies that indicate that there is 0% of toxins when the ABV of your beer is 6% or greater. So, let that guide you!

bonebrews said:
The reason "they" say to not feed honey to infants is the risk of it containing clostridium spores. For adults, they don't mature into toxin producing forms, but they can in infants. Adults just need to worry about the produced toxin. Canned foods are the stereotypical source.
Like helibrewer said, the spores are extremely resilient and would not be killed in a simple boil. Regardless, they were in an aerobic environment. Adding the potato in the anaerobic fermenter probably facilitated its growth.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app
Click to expand...
 
But his did put it in an anaerobic enviroemnt in the fermenter! BUt they were in an acidic enviroment so they shouldn't multiply.
On the infant thing it is true - there is not enough water in the honey for the bacteria to grow but it is added in an infants digestive system when eaten but is not acidic enough to stop the bacteria from multiplying so the risk is they will grow in there and produce the toxin. Adults are acidic enough to stop the growth! Same is true for infant formulea.

I guess this goes to say - don't feed your apple wine to babies :D
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
how is his fermenter an anaerobic environment? unless he put the blueberries in there under oil or something then there still would be oxygen in there.
Click to expand...

He put yeast in there to produce the alcohol right - they use up the disolved oxygen in the wort and produce CO2 which purges the headspace of air = anaerobic
 
I doubt that the yeast uses all the oxygen in the wort and botch cant produce toxins with any amount of oxygen available. plus he just racked the wine which added oxygen just before adding the blueberries.

also, i'm not a science specialist but i think that the co2 doesn't push all the oxygen out of the fermenter. more likely the concentration of co2 goes much higher then it would be in normal air but co2 and oxygen are not solid, they mix together one doesn't simply push the other aside completely.
 
I'd just like to point out that the guys in the article I read were in prison, having prison brew which I'll assume is around 8% ABV, and they got the botox. Plus I did rack onto the blueberries meaning much of the oxygen was depleted. And Yooper has previously told me that the head-space of a fermenter is mostly Co2, but oxygen is still there and sloshing the brew can still oxidise the product. But I didn't slosh much. The PH was too high, but then how did the prison wine guys get it....However the ABV of my wine is over 7% (probably closer to 8% ABV), means I feel much better. But (hell I dunno, in 10 days if I can keep my eyes open I'll drink another. I could use a few days off work)

BTW, if anyone out there makes applewine, I highly recommend the blueberries based on my first few sips. It was wonderful until I started reading....
 
passedpawn said:
zero.

I could regurgitate a bunch of info about clostridium botulinim (I think that's it), but you should look into it yourself. Understand the bacteria, the toxin it creates, the conditions that allow the toxin to develop, the conditions that denature the toxin. Then you'll feel a LOT better about your beer. Start with wikipedia.

Do that, then come back here and close out this thread with what you learned. I'm looking forward to it.
Click to expand...

:off:Had any turkey lately?:D
 
my guess with the prison wine is that they used potatoes. botch comes from the ground, i believe. they tell us not to store anything from the ground under oil or in an oxygen free environment. how they ended up supplying the botch with an anaerobic environment, hard to say but I'd bet it has more to do with fermenting in a sealed plastic bag and having to keep it hidden then the act of fermenting.
 
While there probably is some amount of oxygen left in the must and headspace, fermentation is by definition an anaerobic process.
Once you get above 4% abv the alcohol begins to interfere with C. botulinum's ability to reproduce and metabolize.

The information behind the Prison hooch botulism sounds like they added the potato in the early stages to get more sugars. So low pH and low EtOH allowed for C. botulinum to grow.
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
good point. but if yeast can only make alcohol and carbon dioxide anaerobically, how do I end up with wine when I stir my must everyday?
Click to expand...

The alcohol production phase is anaerobic. But the yeast do respire oxygen during their reproduction phase. At least that is my understanding from high school biology which was 16 years ago (jeez)
 
I've read that you can make a yeast starter for bread by using potatoes as the inoculant. This was from an old Basque recipe collection. Maybe they started with potatoes and too much botch was able to get a hold, and that there wasn't enough abv to knock it down.

Sent from my PantechP9070 using Home Brew mobile app
 
If it make you feel better i cook beef jerky in the danger zone temp for 8 hrs in the winter cause my smoker can't handle the -25 degree Celsius and im still around....
 
Spores were probably on/in the potatoes and possibly other surfaces or ingredients. During the fermentation areas of the mix were apparently anaerobic enough, pH high enough and ethanol levels low enough to enable the growth of the organism and production of toxin. Processing low acid foods, like potatoes, presents a higher risk of this happening.

While the spore are heat stable, the toxin is not. Other factors such as temperature and water activity (a measure of how readily available water in the substrate is to support microbe growth) affect C. botulinum proliferation as well. Jerky would rely on brine to a large degree to lower water activity, keeping the food safe.
 

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