Bottling from a keg - long term storage issues?

[Calypso]

I'm tired of bottling and want to move to kegging. And I know that you can fill some bottles from the keg and cap them, for easy sharing.

BUT, I also have this thing where I'm brewing the same beer every year and storing some, for 18 years. And I'm concerned that beer that has been kegged, then dispensed into a bottle and then capped and stored won't keep very well.

Is this concern founded? And if so, what should I do? Move to kegging for everything but this beer? Stick with bottling even though I hate it? Some third option?

 

[CUrchin]

Why is it any different than a bottle conditioned beer? It will have CO2 in it and it will be capped. I might even argue its better because there is less chance for oxidation in the process.

 

[billl]

Eh - there certainly is a higher risk of issues bottling off of a keg. Normally, they yeast scavenge any O2 as they eat the priming sugar. When you bottle off a keg, it's 100% up to you to get all the O2 out. Yes, you can flush the bottle and counterfill, but.... you still have to take the wand out of the bottle and cap it. Any tiny air currents you are creating in the process can introduce O2. Is it a big amount? Not if you do it right and cap on foam. I wouldn't worry a bit about that for beer you are going to drink soon. 18 years though? eh - I'd stick with bottle conditioning.

 

[55x11]

I'm tired of bottling and want to move to kegging. And I know that you can fill some bottles from the keg and cap them, for easy sharing.

BUT, I also have this thing where I'm brewing the same beer every year and storing some, for 18 years. And I'm concerned that beer that has been kegged, then dispensed into a bottle and then capped and stored won't keep very well.

Is this concern founded? And if so, what should I do? Move to kegging for everything but this beer? Stick with bottling even though I hate it? Some third option?

I don't think your concerns are very well-founded.

Pros of kegging and filling bottles from the keg:

1. You can (and should) think of a keg as a giant bottle. Whatever "conditioning" by yeast you think is happening in the bottle, will also happen in the keg. You can store a keg at warmer temperatures if you want to speed this up. Keg is not some magical space where yeast dies and you are forcing some weird CO2 molecules which are totally synthetic, as opposed to "natural" and "organic" CO2 molecules that yeast produces.. You can add sugar to kegs if you like too btw.

2. Not sure how you store your bottles, but unless you gave a dedicated cellar or fridge, they are subject to daily fluctuations. But it takes a lot more thermal energy to heat up and cool down 5 Gallon of liquid than it takes 12 oz. And there is zero exposure to light. Zero.

3. You can purge your keg prior to transferring beer a lot better than you can ever fill a bottle. And with bottling gun you can purge your bottles with CO2 as well. If oxygen is your concern, I will bet you that a closed transfer under CO2, into a well-purged (fill with starsan and empty) keg, and then filling from the keg into a CO2 purged bottle, will give you an order of magnitude oxygen than just filling bottles from the bucket.

4. You will completely avoid sediment from bottle fermentation.

5. You can dial in your carbonation level precisely instead of guessing, then keg when it's perfect.

6. You can make additions to the beer (dry hopping, fruit, oak, vanilla, coffee etc.) and keg when it's perfect to your taste.

7. You can taste/drink your beer in any amounts as these processes are happening.

8. No bottle bombs, ever.

9. Perfect for competition (no sediment, precisely dialed in profile and carbonation).

10. You can use beergun to purge many other things with CO2 - like when kettle-souring, headspace of a fermenter, during cold-crashing, etc.

Cons:
1. You will incur extra costs. Kegs, beer gun, regulators, CO2, connectors, lines, etc.

2. You will drink your beer faster.

3. Your friends and neighbor will show up to your house to "fill up growlers".

4. Kegging saves quite a bit of time so you will brew more often

5. I can't come up with cons #5-10 - anyone else, please help?

 

[55x11]

Eh - there certainly is a higher risk of issues bottling off of a keg. Normally, they yeast scavenge any O2 as they eat the priming sugar. When you bottle off a keg, it's 100% up to you to get all the O2 out. Yes, you can flush the bottle and counterfill, but.... you still have to take the wand out of the bottle and cap it. Any tiny air currents you are creating in the process can introduce O2. Is it a big amount? Not if you do it right and cap on foam. I wouldn't worry a bit about that for beer you are going to drink soon. 18 years though? eh - I'd stick with bottle conditioning.

I have not seen a study that says precisely how much oxygen the yeast will scavenge while it carbs to say 2.5 volumes. Is it 0.1 ppm? 1ppm? 10ppm? 100ppm? 1,000 ppm?
Yeast need oxygen for growth and cell wall building but by the end of fermentation they have gone through this process more than enough.

The problem with this argument is people like to say: Oh, yeast will scavenge all oxygen, but nobody seems to know what the appropriate amount of oxygen is. It's sort of like arguing that X (which you don't know) is obviously much greater than Y (which you also don't know, give or take 2 orders of magnitude).

Think about it - would you rather oxygenate the beer before bottling (because yeast will take care of all oxygen anyways)? or would your rather transfer without oxygenating your beer past fermentation end?

Your bottling procedure (if you are willing to describe it - I assume it's a standard "fill the bucket with beer, add sugar and bottle with bottle wand") will introduce a LOT more oxygen over 50 bottles than a well done closed transfer will in a keg.

When you are bottling from a keg, the "air currents" are actually CO2 coming out of solution. That foam is a pure CO2 so if you cap it while the bottle headspace is filled with CO2 foam, your bottle is oxygen free. When you bottle from a bucket (which is sitting there oxidizing from the top the entire time) you will have headspace which is all air.

 

[billl]

Hey, you aren't arguing against me. You are arguing against pretty much every commercial brewery in the world. Anybody making beers suitable for aging is bottle conditioning them.

Yeast always, always, always use all the O2 they can get. It provides them way more energy for them. That's just their biology. You've got the cause and effect wrong with when they use O2. They don't use O2 when they reproduce.... they can reproduce more when they have O2.

 

[jodell]

The problem here is oxidation

Yeast always likes oxygen, ethanol does not, that's why adding oxygen post boil is good and any other time is bad.

OP: I've never tried this but here's a thought,
Brew, ferment, put beer in your keg. Then immediately put some beer into bottles from the tap with either a half teaspoonish of sugar in each bottle or one of those carbonation tabs. Do this before force carbonation and even before chilling. You'll still get a full keg minus how many bottles you save

 

[Saboral]

So I want to point out that the OP is thinking of aging beers for 18 years. Even in the most pristine cellaring conditions I wouldn't be expecting any beer to make it quite that long without some significant profile change.

 

[Calypso]

The problem here is oxidation

Yeast always likes oxygen, ethanol does not, that's why adding oxygen post boil is good and any other time is bad.

OP: I've never tried this but here's a thought,
Brew, ferment, put beer in your keg. Then immediately put some beer into bottles from the tap with either a half teaspoonish of sugar in each bottle or one of those carbonation tabs. Do this before force carbonation and even before chilling. You'll still get a full keg minus how many bottles you save

That's a good idea. Or I could rack most of the beer to the keg, then bottle the remaining ~gallon like I normally do (might give better control over the sugar?)

 

[jodell]

That's a good idea. Or I could rack most of the beer to the keg, then bottle the remaining ~gallon like I normally do (might give better control over the sugar?)

I personally think you'd get a little less oxidation from the keg but I have nothing to actually back that up with

 

[JayInAmes]

So I want to point out that the OP is thinking of aging beers for 18 years. Even in the most pristine cellaring conditions I wouldn't be expecting any beer to make it quite that long without some significant profile change.

I think OP is saying he has been using his process of kegging some and bottling some for 18 years, not storing beer for 18 years.

 

[Calypso]

I think OP is saying he has been using his process of kegging some and bottling some for 18 years, not storing beer for 18 years.

No, Saboral was right. I'm brewing beer and storing it for 18 years. I'm brewing the same beer every year so in 18 years I'll have 18 years worth of the same beer.

 

[ChelisHubby]

If you want to store for 18 yrs you should look into distilling, b ut we can't legally talk about that here.

 

[Calypso]

If you want to store for 18 yrs you should look into distilling, b ut we can't legally talk about that here.

Plus, I don't really care for liquor.

I went with a high gravity beer that has a good chance of surviving a long period of time. I know it might not be drinkable in 18 years, but it'll be interesting nonetheless!

 

[jodell]

Out of curiosity what type of beer is this? Barley wine?

 

[schatzke]

I haven't kept any beers bottled off the keg for 18 years but I do have some nearly 6 months old and they are excellent still.

 

[Calypso]

Out of curiosity what type of beer is this? Barley wine?

No, though I did consider either a barley wine or wheat wine. It's a Belgian dark strong. 1.100 OG, first batch fermented out at 1.010, ~11.9% ABV.

 

[jodell]

No, though I did consider either a barley wine or wheat wine. It's a Belgian dark strong. 1.100 OG, first batch fermented out at 1.010, ~11.9% ABV.

Wow that attenuated a ton for something that strong. Have you tried any of the 18 year old ones? How long do you plan to let them go?

 

[Calypso]

Wow that attenuated a ton for something that strong. Have you tried any of the 18 year old ones? How long do you plan to let them go?

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by the attenuation.

I brewed the first batch last year. Second batch is in primary right now. The plan is to sample all 18 years worth on my daughter's 18th birthday.

 

[m00ps]

so...you are re-brewing one beer each year in honor of your daughters birthday and you are opening them all when she's 18??? cant make it another 3 years?

IME, you need that bit of yeast sediment for long term aging, at least at a reasonable homebrew level. I have stopped kegging all my belgian style beers because they would get notably stale after 6 months or so. This was using a beer gun with CO2 purging BTW

 

[Calypso]

so...you are re-brewing one beer each year in honor of your daughters birthday and you are opening them all when she's 18??? cant make it another 3 years?

You got it, though I'm actually planning on sampling all the available years each year. So this year I tried "0". Next year I'll try "0" and "1". On her third birthday I'll try "0", "1", and "2". And so on. And yes, I'll have help so I'm not drinking 18 12% ABV beers.

And 18, 21, meh. 18 seems like a bigger deal, plus she'll probably want to go out with friends when she turns 21.

 

[m00ps]

yeah probably

haha, I just picture you drinking them all and passing out at the table before she gets to blow out the candles
*camera click*
boom, fridge magnet