Bottling conditioning - does it help to swirl bottles?

[Jayhem]

So I was thinking about bottle conditioning....

I know that after carbonation the yeasties eat up the esters and other nasties that cause some of the fruity/bitter off flavors in beer.

Well, wouldn't it help the yeast do that if you were to swirl the bottles maybe once a week to rouse up that yeast layer sitting on the bottom of each bottle?

Makes sense to me but I'm just thinking out loud.

Thoughts?

 

[jester5120]

I swirl or shake the bottles usually a couple times a week. I think it helps

 

[Revvy]

I've really never needed to. And the only time I've ever recommended it is if the temp of the beer has dropped below the yeast's dormancy level, if the bottles got too cold. I've recommended folks get the beer back up to carbing temps and swirl the bottles to re-rouse the yeast.

But any yeast that has fallen during a NORMAL carbonation period, has dropped because they've done their job, not because they've collapsed prematurely or anything.

I honestly believe that yeast don't really need our help to do their jobs.....they do it just fine without us hovering over it, or "helping" them. I don't liked to be interrupted doing my job, and don't want help unless I ask for it. I kinda figure the yeast are pretty much the same way.

 

[Jayhem]

But any yeast that has fallen during a NORMAL carbonation period, has dropped because they've done their job, not because they've collapsed prematurely or anything.

This is what confuses me. How do yeast stay in suspension during fermentation when gravity is pulling them down? I have a hard time believing that all the yeast just float around in suspension fat and happy and then when the sugar is eaten they just fall out and go dormant? I would think that if they can fall and go dormant at all that many of them fall out of suspension even during active fermentation

I've swirled my fermenter as fermentation has started to taper off and it started back up at a higher rate for awhile.

IF yeast do drop out of suspension after eating up all the sugars then how do they benefit your beer by extended bottle conditioning if they are all just sitting in a white layer on the bottom?

 

[Revvy]

They're swimming. It is convection. Yeast don't have flagella, they have buds. But fermentation creates quite a bit of heat so what you see are hot currents rising tothe top, cooling off and sinking back down.



Just because you can't necessarily see it, doesn't mean it's not happening both in your fermenter or in the bottle.

 

[Jayhem]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. Perhaps in bottle conditioning where there no appreciable heat being generated it takes longer for the yeast to clean up the esters because it takes longer for them to make contact in a less convection active environment. I think swirling the bottles has to help them process these chemicals faster by keeping them all in suspension longer. I just wanted to be sure it wouldn't hurt anything.

 

[unionrdr]

It's not really helping swirling the bottles during normal conditioning temps. The yeast eat the sugar,absorb any off flavor producers,& settle to the bottom. So you're really just stiring them up after they've absorbed the bad stuff after the sugars. Just leave them be,you really don't need to help them by playing mad scientist. They honestly don't need to be helped to know what to do.
I think one of the other big things noobs need to learn is that WE make the wort,THEY make everything else. As long as we provide the right temps & environment,they need no help from us. We just have to learn to trust the process. It doesn't need constant fumbling at all. It doesn't need us to be involved.

 

[tre9er]

Can't say I haven't wondered this, though. I have some bottles right now that are about 12 days old and have settled yeast in the bottoms, a decent bit. At least I'm guessing it's mostly yeast although I suppose it could be some trub? It's white and quite noticeable.

 

[unionrdr]

Mostly yeast dregs after carbonation/conditioning. Maybe some small bit of stuff from chill haze settling out,if there was any from fridge time.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

To the OP; If you swirl the yeast up you'll get cloudy beer. Try an experiment: swirl half a batch of bottles accordoing to whatever schedule makes sense to you. Leave the other half alone. put them in 6pack racks in pairs, and taste them in pairs to see if/when a difference is apparent. Good excuse to brink more beer !!!

 

[Jayhem]

To the OP; If you swirl the yeast up you'll get cloudy beer. Try an experiment: swirl half a batch of bottles accordoing to whatever schedule makes sense to you. Leave the other half alone. put them in 6pack racks in pairs, and taste them in pairs to see if/when a difference is apparent. Good excuse to brink more beer !!!

Sounds like a good experiment but after reading the "bottle bomb" thread I'm hesitant to shake any conditioning bottles for fear of one exploding in my hand! Perhaps I'll just let the yeast do it's job, unmolested.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

The usual culprit in bottle bombs is either incomplete initial fermentation (due to low temps?) or excessive priming sugar. Once the sugar is gone the yeast cease eating, regardless of how many there are in suspension.

 

[Revvy]

The usual culprit in bottle bombs is either incomplete initial fermentation (due to low temps?) or excessive priming sugar. Once the sugar is gone the yeast cease eating, regardless of how many there are in suspension.

Exactly. Bottle bombs DON'T happen unless something is wrong. And it's usually what Bill said, not letting a beer actually finish fermenting before bottling (That's why we recommend using a hydromter to determine completeness, and NOT airlocks or a calendar.) Infection (Rare) or adding too much priming sugar.

Am I the only one who see's the Irony in someone with the name "SHAKES BEER" advising someone NOT to do it? :fro:

To the OP; If you swirl the yeast up you'll get cloudy beer. Try an experiment: swirl half a batch of bottles accordoing to whatever schedule makes sense to you. Leave the other half alone. put them in 6pack racks in pairs, and taste them in pairs to see if/when a difference is apparent

 

[Jayhem]

Am I the only one who see's the Irony in someone with the name "SHAKES BEER" advising someone NOT to do it? :fro:

bahahaha. Good catch.

 

[BrewmasterC]

If yeast didn't like help in doing their jobs we wouldn't need a stir plate to quickly and more effectively make big starters, I have bottled thousands of beers and in my opinion it absolutely cuts the conditioning time.. I swirl not shake the bottle just enough to kick the yeast up, like 4 or 5 quick spins, and I do this every few days... Happy brewing

 

[william_shakes_beer]

If yeast didn't like help in doing their jobs we wouldn't need a stir plate to quickly and more effectively make big starters, I have bottled thousands of beers and in my opinion it absolutely cuts the conditioning time.. I swirl not shake the bottle just enough to kick the yeast up, like 4 or 5 quick spins, and I do this every few days... Happy brewing

In a starter you're not making beer, you're making yeast.

I'd be interested if anybody actually did the side by side comparison with shaking/not shaking. My guess is the only difference would be one was cloudy and one was clear.

signed william doesn't shake beer

 

[Heavywalker]

Funny that this post came back to life because I just did an experiment whilst bottle conditioning.

I typically don't crack a beer until after the 3 week mark but on the IPA I decided that I was going to try and run a little test.

I took the beer and set aside a six pack at room temp and let them sit for a week, on one side of the six pack I would tilt the bottle upside down once per day to suspend the yeast, the other side I did not touch.

At one week I opened one bottle from each side. The bottle that I suspended the yeast in had a decent amount of carbonation after 7 days and even retained a head in the glass. The bottle from the side I did not mess with was still flat although the bottle did hiss when I opened it.

I waited another 3 days and tried them again with the same result only the bottle that I suspended the yeast in was fully carbed at this point and the other bottle was still flat with only slightly better carbonation than the first taste.

At that point I suspended the yeast in the last untouched bottle and waited another 3 days to try it. At that point the, 13 day mark, both bottles were fully carbed. I wish I hadn't messed with that 3rd still bottle but I felt like I had enough anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion.

As far as being clear there was no noticeable difference after chilling in the fridge for a day. However this was a fairly dark IPA with an SMR around 12 so with a lighter beer you may notice something.

 

[unionrdr]

It sounds like what was happening was the co2 produced up to that point was getting mixed in by swirling/tilting or shaking. Like when you try to quick carb a keg.

 

[JimRausch]

Interesting experiment Heavy.
When carbing in the winter where the temp in my basement is in the low 60s, I put my bottles in an insulated box with a heating pad on top. The pad is slightly smaller than the box, so every 3-4 days, I rotate the bottles and while doing that I give them a shake. I've done this for the past 2 years after reading a post from one of the bigwigs(can't remember who) who recommended inverting bottles to restart a stalled bottle conditioning. Is it necessary? I don't know, I've never tried the Heavyweather experiment. Maybe next winter I will. But for now, all I know is...... it works for me.