Bottling Cider Champagne style

[Kiwi-brew]

Thought I'd see if anyone has had the patience to try this and what their results were before I give it a go. Bottling cider as you would champagne to achieve a champagne style carbonation.

So, anyone tried it, or wouldn't it work?

 

[z-bob]

If you use champagne yeast, and if you prime the bottles with the right amount of sugar, cider is remarkably similar to brut champagne (in my opinion) I'm not fond of it. I like it dry, but not that dry.

Or are you talking about riddling the bottles, etc?

 

[Kiwi-brew]

Yes I am talking about riddling. Basically treating it like champagne once I'm done with secondary fermentation.

Plan was to ferment enough cider in primary to fill my 19l and 10l carboys using some cider yeast. Then i can keg the 19l to enjoy while I experiment with the champagne style of bottling. Was also going to use some pear juice to try and keep it a little sweeter.

 

[AdamsCider]

I have never thought about riddling. I bottle in champagne bottles and use a crown cap. I'd probably lose half my finished product trying to do it right. I like the fuzzies from bottle carbing, gives it the farmhouse look.

 

[Kiwi-brew]

I'm wanting to see if I can achieve the mousse and bead in a cider that champagnes have. Plus it sounds like a bit of fun. Will be interesting to see how the taste changes compared to the younger brew of the same batch.

 

[Scrumpy!]

I just finished a cider using a champagne like technique.

The original must was a mix of local apples picked from neighborhood yards. It was fermented to a FG of 1.002 over the winter at about 45 deg. At bottling, I added 25 ppm sulfite, champagne yeast, and 12g/l dextrose to a five gallon plastic bucket of cider then filled 24, 900 g champagne bottles. I expected this dose of sugar to take the pressure to 3 atmospheres and set up a test bottle with a pressure gauge to confirm this and monitor the secondary fermentation. After 30 days at 60 deg the pressure stabilized at 45 psi . There was a nice deposit of lees on the bottom when the bottles reached my target pressure.

Champagne is bottled and left in secondary fermentation for 12-24 months so the wine can take on flavors from the autolyzing lees. After that much time, the lees are very compact and hard to riddle. I am not that patient so at 60 days, I gave each bottle a vigorous shake and put them upside upside down in wine boxes. Since the lees were still loosely packed, they were easy to dislodge and mix back into the cider. For the first few days, I gave each one a couple of strong twists to clear the lees off the sides of the bottle. By the end of a week all of the lees were piled onto the crown caps and the cider was crystal clear.

I built two rectangular wooden frames and mounted two layers of fence wire inside of it that had openings about the same size as the diameters of the bottles. I placed one in a fish tote (large rectangular plastic tub), added 40 lbs of crushed ice and enough water to make it easy to insert each bottle upside down to chill.

I added 20 lbs of ice and 6 lbs of rock salt to a second fish tote and mixed them well with a shovel. I put the second frame in the tote with my freezing brine and once the bottles were well chilled (1 hr later) in the ice water bath, I put them upside down in the freezing brine. The necks were submerged about 1". After five or six minutes, the necks were frozen. My son took each bottle out of the brine, turned it more or less upright, popped the crown cap and put his thumb over the neck letting out gas but as little cider as possible. He used a bottle opener that allowed him to open the cap towards him to reduce the shower of cider and lees that popped out. He still got pretty stinky.

In advance, I had cooked up a syrup of table sugar and water that had a concentration of 1g/ml and had a bottle of good commercial cider open by my side. When he gave me each bottle, I used a syringe to add 7.5 ml of syrup to each 750 ml champagne bottle to give me a 1% by weight residual sugar content. I also added enough dry commercial cider (Crispin Brown's Lane) to bring the level up to within 2 inches of the top of the neck and recapped each bottle with a crown cap.

The results are a crystal clear semi-dry to semi-sweet cider still carbonated enough for a crisp mouth feel and a steady stream of bubbles in the glass.

Cheers
Scrumpy!

 

[Kiwi-brew]

Thanks Scrumpy! Great info. This is pretty much what I'm going to do. Hopefully I have the patience to wait a few months, I'm sure i could leave a few bottles that long

 

[Kiwi-brew]

Scrumpy, how was your carbonation compared to say a keg carbed cider? And why did you go to 3 atmospheres and not higher like a champagne?

Would also like to see how you set up your pressure guage on your test bottle

 

[Scrumpy!]

Hi Kiwi-brew,

I settled on 3 atmospheres because it is just enough to reliably expel the frozen plug but leave some carbonation. Three atmospheres probably drops to two atmospheres when you get the cap back on your bottle.

Some loss of cider and CO2 are inevitable and can vary widely from bottle to bottle until you get the hang of it. You can preserve the greatest amount of CO2 by chilling the bottles before freezing the necks. You will quickly get better at controlling the losses by using your thumb. Topping off with a well carbonated cider that tastes as close as possible to your cider or using the contents of one of your bottles helps. Quickly getting your sweetener and spare cider in and the cap back on is a challenge.

You can adjust your final carbonation by tweaking your priming sugar concentration. Be sure you have a good pressure monitoring program and know your bottle strength.

Here is a photo of the pressure monitoring system I copied from another forum. I like small gauges like this Compact Stainless Steel-Case Gauge (o-60 psi). You can save a little money by purchasing an adapter like this. Get a #10-32 stainless hex nut, a matching flat washer, and some silicone gasket sealer. The washer goes under the nut on the inside of the cap. Melt or drill a hole through the cap of a Perrier bottle and assemble your new pressure monitor.

Cheers

 

[ten80]

I just finished a cider using a champagne like technique...

In advance, I had cooked up a syrup of table sugar and water that had a concentration of 1g/ml and had a bottle of good commercial cider open by my side. When he gave me each bottle, I used a syringe to add 7.5 ml of syrup to each 750 ml champagne bottle to give me a 1% by weight residual sugar content...

The results are a crystal clear semi-dry to semi-sweet cider still carbonated enough for a crisp mouth feel and a steady stream of bubbles in the glass.

Cheers
Scrumpy!

Can you clarify your use of a sugar syrup; did you expect any additional carbonation or was the syrup just for back-sweetening?

Thanks for the clear description of the procedure for "rapid keeving," I can't see myself waiting 1-2 extra years following fermentation, I'm not certain that there is much more flavor complexity to be gained with cider, which has a much lower ABV than champagne.

 

[Kiwi-brew]

I wouldve thought that if you did a good job at riddling the cider then the yeast in the bottles would've been expelled, so no more fermentation??

 

[Scrumpy!]

That's right, by expelling the lees from a clear cider that has completed secondary fermentation in the bottle the added sugar will sweeten the cider without fermenting and raising the pressure. I can be pretty confident that nearly all of the yeast is dead and any live yeast cells are embedded in the lees.

 

[hdbii]

I tried this years ago along the lines of Scrumpy! except with dry ice in an alcohol bath. Dipping the neck in the dry ice bath froze the button of yeast in seconds but like Scrumpy! it was a mess getting the inch or so ice plug out, the dosage in, and then re-capping as fast as possible. My mental note at the time to improve the process was to pre-chill the bottles more and handle them as gently as possible as cider tended to spew everywhere. I’ve since moved on to other less messy techniques to get a carbonated, not-undrinkably-dry, aged cider.

 

[Kiwi-brew]

What process do you use now hdbii?

Chilling the bottles before riddling appears to be quite important. For both ensuring the yeast plug freezes faster when using just an ice/brine bath but also for helping reduce the mess and loss of cider from the bottle. I suppose it's similar to leaving your bottle of beer in the freezer too long when trying to cool it quickly and the beer gets so cold it appears flat/not carbonated. Or am I the only one that forgets about my beer in the freezer? 😂

 

[hdbii]

I too have left many bottles in the freezer. I’ll give you a short answer and an abbreviated long answer as the decades long pursuit of a quality, carbonated, not-bone-dry, aged cider led down many rabbit holes.

In a word, cyser. Quality AJ from the orchard + 0.4 to 1.0 pound of honey per gallon of juice + Champagne yeast. Bottle condition in real champagne bottles only, 2 teaspoons of granulated sugar per 750 ml champagne bottle. Age at least two years.

The juice needs to be quality juice and unadulterated. I’ve tried adding acid blend, lactic acid, grape tannins, raisins, chopped raisins, pureed raisins, golden raisins, and hops but it all tasted artificial. I’ve also tried various spices too numerous to list but briefly cinnamon and ginger did’t work.

Honey is poured in straight, not heated or treated. Can’t say whether store brand or local sourced artisanal is better; currently testing that hypothesis. I’m a sour head so I’ve been hoping to get a sour cyser from unfiltered, untreated, unpasteurized honey but haven’t yet. Although most sources say honey is completely fermented, in my experience it leaves a residual sweetness that prevents dryness. Zero point 4 pounds of honey per gallon produces a brut type cider while one pound per gallon is demi-sec. Most AJ is around 1.050 S.G. and ferments to 1.000 or slightly below. Champagne must is around 1.090 to 1.110. Honey adds about 43 points per pound so one pound in 5 gallons adds about 8 points per gallon. AJ sugars are simple and are fermented completely by virtually all yeasts, don’t go down the rabbit hole of searching for a yeast that won’t completely dry out AJ, they all do.

Champagne yeast only. It gives that nice mousse, is said to be bactericidal, tolerates higher alcohol levels, ages nicely and can rest on the bottom for years. I think it does keep bacterial infections in check, hence I’ve never had infections despite using raw honey. Not affiliated but I’ve used a Red Star champagne yeast for years and it’s dirt cheap.

Champagne bottles only, not faux champagne bottles. If you use real bottles they won’t explode if you over carbonate. The cap will fail before the bottle shatters.

Age 2 years at least and you get a nice bubbly that rivals vintage champagne. If you make an overly dry cider you can pour a splash of Apple Jack and a dollop of simple syrup (or agave syrup but not honey as it won’t dissolve) in the bottom of a chilled large glass. Swirl until the syrup dissolves in the Apple Jack then tilt chilled glass towards tilted chilled bottle of dry cider and pour cider gently down the side of the glass to float/mix the Apple Jack/syrup with dry cider and you have a great cider “cocktail”.

As in most cases the best answer is the simplest. I’ve tried keeving, chemical keeving, cold crashing, permanent cold crashing, pasteurization, sorbate/SMB, riddling with dosage, 530 nm light, artificial sugars, stevia, filtering/keg carbing/bottling (so-called soda-streaming) and many others too nutty to mention. Cold crashing also works well and I use it for sours that need a year or two, in particular Flanders Reds, but for these cysers I worry that I won’t be able to cold crash for 5 or more years. Hope that helps. Still doesn’t solve the yeast in the bottle question but I’ve come to embrace it as it adds flavor and my recollection is that they leave grande cuvee champagne on its lees for 5-7 years. Also not sure if this really is a cyser/cyzer or just a honey chaptalized cider or apple wine.

 

[z-bob]

I'm going to piggyback here rather than start yet another apple wine thread. I hope it's not off-topic. If it is, someone yell at me and I'll delete it as start a new thread.

I have almost a quart of Dolgo crabapple juice in the fridge. A late frost zapped the only good crabapple tree in town (it's on public property) and I didn't get enough this year to make jelly. So I was thinking about mixing it with plain apple juice and sugar to get about a gallon of 1.11 to 1.12 must and making a strong [still] apple wine with it. No idea if the red color will survive or if it will drop out.

Do you think it will be drinkable after aging a year, or will it be sour rocket fuel? The crabapples are very tart and a bit tannic. Does it matter which yeast I use? (I'm planning on using the lees from normal-strength cider; K1-V1116)

 

[ten80]

In a word, cyser. Quality AJ from the orchard + 0.4 to 1.0 pound of honey per gallon of juice + Champagne yeast.

I've stuck with 1 lb honey per gallon of juice and it is enough for some honey flavor to carry through. Might try 1.5-2 lbs/gallon for a high-strength cyser sometime.

The juice needs to be quality juice and unadulterated. I’ve tried adding acid blend, lactic acid, grape tannins, raisins, chopped raisins, pureed raisins, golden raisins, and hops but it all tasted artificial. I’ve also tried various spices too numerous to list but briefly cinnamon and ginger did’t work.

Agreed. A straight or blended juice with mid-level tannins and tartness (malic acid) will result in a better end product that a sweet juice with no tannins and tartness.

Honey is poured in straight, not heated or treated. Can’t say whether store brand or local sourced artisanal is better; currently testing that hypothesis... AJ sugars are simple and are fermented completely by virtually all yeasts, don’t go down the rabbit hole of searching for a yeast that won’t completely dry out AJ, they all do.

I was surprised to find how well this works. 2" of cold honey in the bottom of my fermenter dissappeared in 3-4 months. No need to add in warm honey... which is a recipe for a cider volcano anyways! Also, yeasts that are not highly alcohol-tolerant may leave residual sweetness if you have a high enough must gravity and do not add any nutrients. I've yet to test this.

Champagne yeast only. It gives that nice mousse, is said to be bactericidal, tolerates higher alcohol levels, ages nicely and can rest on the bottom for years. I think it does keep bacterial infections in check, hence I’ve never had infections despite using raw honey.

What about using a well-known wine yeast that works well for cider and mead (e.g. 71B or D47), then adding champagne yeast for bottle conditioning. The champagne yeast will sit in the bottles during conditioning and lend it's special "conditioning flavor." I've found that champagne yeast strips the flavor out of cider and honey, so I use the white wine yeasts listed above for primary fermentation.

Champagne bottles only, not faux champagne bottles. If you use real bottles they won’t explode if you over carbonate. The cap will fail before the bottle shatters.

Most sources seem to indicate that crown caps can handle 6-7 volumes of CO2. I've yet to put that to the test.

Also not sure if this really is a cyser/cyzer or just a honey chaptalized cider or apple wine.

cider + honey = cyser. Apple wine would be AJ + simple sugars.

 

[Kiwi-brew]

Thanks hdbii. Maybe saving myself the trouble of riddling sounds like the route to follow. I'm not too keen on a bone dry cider either. Could you please elaborate how and why you use Cold Crashing for your sours. I always thought this was a method used when seperating your cider from the yeast or stopping a fermentation before all the sugars are gone. But it sounds like you're using it for something different.

. Cold crashing also works well and I use it for sours that need a year or two, in particular Flanders Reds, but for these cysers I worry that I won’t be able to cold crash for 5 or more years.

 

[hdbii]

Hi kiwi-brew. Are the Kiwis going to take back the Americas' cup? Or just help some other country win it by supplying all the crew?

You are exactly right about cold crashing and I just use it to stop fermentation. I like sour beer and my favorite sour style is Flanders Red. To my taste buds it has a lot of sour balanced with a little to a lot of sweet (I like a lot of sweet as well as a lot of sour). I blend old and new beer to get the level of sour I want but have never been able to get the level of balancing sweetness right. I’m always under sweet. So I back sweeten with simple syrup in the bottling/mixing bucket then bottle in champagne bottles and a few small champagne bottles. About day three I open a small bottle every day until the carbonation is just right then cold crash the rest at around 30F. The beer is ready to drink pretty soon thereafter because it’s old and new beer and even the new is old by beer standards. You might ask why not do this with cider and I would say it needs to age at 52-60F for two or so years. At 30F takes longer to age and over that period of time and temperature it might be disruptive to the yeast. Cheers.

 

[hdbii]

Hi ten80. Was up in Anchorage and parts of Alaska this past summer. Fantastic. You must feel blessed. I’ve got to find a way to live there for part of the year. Between the salmon and halibut fishing, unlimited wild berries, and budding craft brew scene, not sure how I would find time to do anything else.

Not facile with this site so just one long blurb.

Agree that as you approach 1 pound of honey per gallon the honey flavor comes through. But, while i like raw honey, and occasionally cook with it, I don’t like mead, or stuff that approaches mead. To me mead is one dimensional, like honey flavored vodka and water, just not a lot there. And I don’t like spiced mead either, tastes medicinal. So as the tipple goes from pure cider to pure mead I start to dislike the taste around 1 pound of honey per gallon. But that’s just me, there’s no right or wrong. I have tried a higher alcohol cider with 0.8 pounds of honey and 1/2 pound of cane sugar per gallon of AJ, O.G. 1.108, but thought the alcohol way overwhelmed the apple notes. My idea of a cider is like the French make it, keeved (if that’s a word), no added sugar, carbonated, and bottle aged. Perfect with mild foods like chicken crepes with a mushroom cream sauce or other mild foods. Everyone at the table can drink a liter or so each and not be toasted (from the cider).

I haven’t tried low-alcohol-tolerant yeast for ciders but I have for beer twice using WLP002. The tolerance was listed as 5-10%. I was making a “small" barley wine and I wanted it to stop around 10% abv. It went past both times. ( <<Why did you try the same thing twice you big dummy?>> Because I used a higher mash temp the second time and I thought that might help it stop at 10%.) With some time and experimentation I think you could get it to work but then you’d have a high alcohol cider and you couldn’t carbonate in the bottle although you could force carb in the keg. Using small amounts of honey you get a modicum of sweetness without adding too much alcohol, no fuss, no muss.

Will definitely try 71B and D47 next time. Also want to try WLP611 when its in stock.

I accidentally tested the champagne bottle/cap combo at 8-10 estimated atm. Was making a low-honey lowish-alcohol version of JAOM with 5 gallons of pasteurized low pulp OJ + 3 pounds of honey + 4 pounds of home-made dark Belgian candi syrup. It stopped fermenting at 1.012 and tasted great with some sweet balancing the sour. I thought I had made some great candi syrup with lots of unfermentable sweetness and maillard compounds. Added priming sugar to 4 vols and bottled. Three or so weeks later I looked at one of the bottles and the cap was domed upward, pretty impressively so. I donned my best bomb disposal gear and gently put one in the freezer. My wife was laughing her a&& off. When I opened it however it only gave a faint hiss and was under-carbed. The rest were just various levels of under-carbed but interestingly none were flat. I think I have one or two bottles left, not sure if I can send pics but will try as the caps were impressive looking. My conclusion was that the pressure built up until it finally leaked out through/around the seal and then at lower pressures resealed.

And finally, cider - cyser - mead. My word spectrum from pure juice to pure mead would go: cider - honey flavored/chaptalized/fortified cider - cyser/melomel - apple flavored mead - mead. Using cyser/melomel for the vast middle ground where each contribute very roughly equal sugars and flavor. But when its really close to one or the other I think honey flavored cider is more descriptive. Is 5 gallons of AJ and 2 ounces of honey a cyser? Is 15 pounds of honey in 4 gallons of water and 6 ounces of AJ a cyser too? In the end just words, the thing being described speaks for itself. Cheers. May see you out one day picking salmon berries next summer.

 

[hdbii]

The cap in the foreground left is domed outward and the product of accidental overpriming. The cap on the right is the usual product of the "3REV" capper in the background; crimped downward in the middle somewhat like a canning lid. When opened the JAOM on the left was under-carbed but clearly had lost some amount of CO2.